Prove me wrong: modesty/skin exposure

[blackhole]

In that case men should cover up to help women control their urge to sin otherwise you have double standards. The loving act is to do so.

Good, you're now much more consistent.

 

[blackhole]

On a side note: Did you even have time to read the two Ezekiel chapters? It's just you responded quickly and it might be helpful to read those.

I read Eze 12, and I don't know what part of it you want me to notice.

I briefly wrote about Eze 16,

1. Ervah

Ervah is used 54 times in the Bible. Some usages of this word:
[...]
· Or evil sexual conduct (Lev 18:6-19, Eze 16:36-37, Eze 23:29 [second reference in this verse])
​

 

[Sam91]

Why would I debate opinion? Data is the purpose of this thread.

Everyone has an opinion, and "a mind changed against its will of is the same opinion still." Data can create lasting change of opinion.

You are asserting that being topless is not nudity by saying I am conflating the two.

If I have no sleeves are my arms bare? Yes. If I have no clothes on my top half is it naked, yes. You are telling me that I am mistaken. My opinion is that I am not. So you are speaking about opinions.

You say that what I see as objective fact is invalid. It is in your subjective opinion that I am wrong. Otherwise we would not have to explain nakedness as 'completely naked', 'stark naked' etc.

 

[Archivist]

What I see in threads like this are contradictions. Some say that it is wrong for women to go topless in public because because the Bible condemns it (it doesn’t). Some have said that women going topless could cause men to lust. I’ve asked those who don’t have a problem with men going topless about women lusting over the male chest. Apparently most of them don’t see that as being a problem (I did have one person say that men shouldn’t go topless either—at least he is consistent). I’ve also asked (without answer) about people who have nice houses or clothing or cars causing others to be envious about those serving good food causing others to be gluttonous, about those having money causing others to be greedy. Apparently that is alright, the only problem they see is topless women causing men to lust. I’m sorry, but don’t men have to take responsibility if they have issues with list?

 

[Hank77]

It says in Romans 13 that any commandment is summed up by this brief saying Love does not harm their neighbour. So I will look at how a woman going topless in the west will harm her.

It will be harmful because men in general are conditioned by society to objectify and sexualize her re: Matthew 5:28.

See also the following article about a situation where it was actually allowed and women wouldn't do it.
Ontario women can legally go topless. So why aren’t they? | TVO.org

I would say it's also harmful to the men who are tempted to lust.

 

[blackhole]

You are asserting that being topless is not nudity by saying I am conflating the two.

If I have no sleeves are my arms bare? Yes. If I have no clothes on my top half is it naked, yes. You are telling me that I am mistaken. My opinion is that I am not. So you are.

You say that what I see as objective fact is invalid. It is in your subjective opinion that I am wrong. Otherwise we would not have to explain nakedness as 'completely naked', 'stark naked' etc.

Your opinion of objective fact which is back by ... opinion.

Opinion isn't objective. In addition, your reasoning is circular.

Dictionary definition of objective: "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts."

 

[Archivist]

You are asserting that being topless is not nudity by saying I am conflating the two.

If I have no sleeves are my arms bare? Yes. If I have no clothes on my top half is it naked, yes. You are telling me that I am mistaken. My opinion is that I am not. So you are.

You say that what I see as objective fact is invalid. It is in your subjective opinion that I am wrong. Otherwise we would not have to explain nakedness as 'completely naked', 'stark naked' etc.

So you believe that men who are topless at a beach are half-naked?

 

[Archivist]

I would say it's also harmful to the men who are tempted to lust.

So if you have a nice house, are you responsible if another is envious?

 

[Sam91]

Your opinion of objective fact which is back by ... opinion.

Opinion isn't objective.

Dictionary: "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts."

Yes I am a sociology student. I know what objective means.

You are saying I am conflating topless and nakedness. See the definition of naked below.

 

[Hank77]

So if you have a nice house, are you responsible if another is envious?

Lust is not envy.

 

[blackhole]

So you believe that men who are topless at a beach are half-naked?

Let me add to your question: if you expose your face, how naked are you? 5%?
Is 5% nudity acceptable?

If so, at what point are we excessively naked?

 

[blackhole]

Yes I am a sociology student. I know what objective means.

You are saying I am conflating topless and nakedness. See the definition of naked below.

Right. Unclothed, undressed, and so on. What are you showing me?

 

[blackhole]

Lust is not envy.

No, but it is a stumbling block.

Toplessness is sinful because it leads to lust, by which your brother has stumbled.

Nice things are sinful because they lead to envy, by which your brother has stumbled.

 

[Archivist]

Lust is not envy.

Perfectly aware of that—didn’t say it was—but both are sins. Tell me, if you have money are you responsible if someone else feels greed? If you serve good food are you responsible if another experiences gluttony?

At some point, don’t people have to take responsibility for their own sins?

 

[Sam91]

So you believe that men who are topless at a beach are half-naked?

Yes. Do I think it as shameful as if I did it. No, because I am socialised into seeing it as normal. Same as society is trying to program us into thinking it is ok to do other sinful things. For example, to hoard wealth, be proud, drunkeness, to not care about the destitute etc

 

[Sam91]

Right. Unclothed, undressed, and so on. What are you showing me?

I am wasting my time by replying to your assertions. First was that I am conflating toplessness with nudity. I said it is a matter of opinion. The you said you weren't here to discuss opinion but quantifiable data. So I proved that you are also being subjective in your comprehension of the two terms. You see how you attach meaning to the terms is subjective. That is all.

In essence at the moment I am only replying to this.

 

[Archivist]

Yes. Do I think it as shameful as if I did it. No, because I am socialised into seeing it as normal. Same as society is trying to program us into thinking it is ok to do other sinful things. For example, to hoard wealth, be proud, drunkeness, to not care about the destitute etc

How is society trying to promote drunkenness? Drunk driving penalties have been increased. Not caring about the destitute? At least in the US volunteerism is up.

So you don’t see it as shameful for men to go topless, just women.

 

[RDKirk]

But what happened when Jacob discriminated by loving Rachel and not loving Leah?????

I would point out that the Mosaic Law made marrying competing sisters a sin, so that relationship was not blessed from the beginning.

 

[blackhole]

I am wasting my time by replying to your assertions. First was that I am conflating toplessness with nudity. I said it is a matter of opinion. The you said you weren't here to discuss opinion but quantifiable data. So I proved that you are also being subjective in your comprehension of the two terms. You see how you attach meaning to the terms is subjective. That is all.

How about this: as the Bible uses the term nudity in Genesis 2-3, or in any other section which shows nudity as substantially negative (shame or sin), are you able to give evidence for the viewpoint that God would consider toplessness as a form of such nudity?

To be clear: I'm not asking if you can give verses to show that toplessness is bad. I'm asking if you can give verses to show that toplessness would be considered nudity, in such circumstances.

 

[Sam91]

How is society trying to promote drunkenness? Drunk driving penalties have been increased. Not caring about the destitute? At least in the US volunteerism is up.

So you don’t see it as shameful for men to go topless, just women.

Social media, films, magazines all promote drinking and clubbing as normal behaviour. Drunk driving penalties are increased because there is a problem with people drink driving. It is pointless going into that.

You refer to more people volunteering. Yes, but I see hard heartedness everywhere in the on here towards immigrants. Also, towards the disabled and sick in the UK. It is disgraceful! The bible says if we see someone without clothes we should cover them and if someone is hungry we should feed them (James). Jesus makes it clear in the gospels when he says that if someone asks us for our tunic we should give it to them. Yet we have all this wealth but ard scared of immigrants taking our resources. Where is that biblical? It is pure selfishness and we live in societies that shape this view about immigrants. Where does it says we should turn away those in need? The Bible doesn't say that, sinful man does.