Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I've found in my studies, the word for "shamefacedness" can mean to have consideration for others. Something to consider for sure.I'm glad you quoted 1Ti 2. Elsewhere, I dealt with this text; I'll paste that material here:
----
A) Self-explanatory
The second half of this verse explains the idea of the first half. That is, “with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;”
It’s not about showing too much skin, it’s about dressing too extravagantly. Note that they’re not removing articles of clothing, they’re adding them.
Another reason to think that this only applies to conduct within the church is that it appears contradictory to 2Sa 1:24.
B) Greek
The words used are: modest (κόσμιος) and apparel (καταστολή).
1. Κόσμιος
Κόσμιος is used only twice in the Bible, once in the next chapter (1Ti 3:2) where it’s translated as “good behavior.”
The Strong (n.d.) dictionary says: “From G2889 (in its primary sense); orderly, that is, decorous: - of good behaviour, modest.”
Quoting Barnes (n.d.):
The word here rendered “modest” ( κόσμιος kosmios), properly relates to ornament, or decoration, and means that which is “well-ordered, decorous, becoming.” It does not, properly, mean modest in the sense of being opposed to that which is immodest, or which tends to excite improper passions and desires, but that which is becoming or appropriate.
2. Καταστολή
Καταστολή occurs only here, and as you can learn from the commentary by Clarke (n.d.) and a work he references by Lens (1785): the καταστολή was a specific article of clothing; it only came down to about the waist.
Thus, these words have almost nothing to do with how much flesh is covered.
C) Attention
Some argue that women are not to draw too much attention to themselves with their clothing. Johnson (n.d.) makes this argument, “but adorn themselves in modest apparel. In simple attire which not [sic] attract attention” (Emphasis in original.)
We could say that we’re drawing too much attention to ourselves if we wear too little. However, on many beaches – it’s precisely the opposite. If you’re not exposing a lot of skin, you’re drawing attention to yourself by wearing too much.
127 αἰδώς aidos ahee-doce’
perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and 1492 (through the idea of downcast eyes); n f; TDNT-1:169,26; {See TDNT 30 }
AV-shamefacedness 1, reverence 1; 2
1) a sense of shame or honour, modesty, bashfulness, reverence, regard for others, respect
1492 οιδα oida oy’-da or εἴδω eido i’-do
a root word; v; TDNT-5:116,673; {See TDNT 538 } v a root word; TDNT-5:116,706; {See TDNT 559 }
AV-know 281, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 17, look 6, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 667
1) to see
1a) to perceive with the eyes
1b) to perceive by any of the senses
1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
1d) to see
1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
1d2) to pay attention, observe
1d3) to see about something 1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
1d4) to inspect, examine
1d5) to look at, behold
1e) to experience any state or condition
1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2) to know
2a) to know of anything
2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
2b1) of any fact
2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
2b3) to know how, to be skilled in
2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (#1Th 5:12)
For Synonyms
Women who expose themselves in public are attention seekers and are not modest. Eve's nakedness was covered by God himself. Going around naked, knowing what men are like, is inciting men to lust and that can't be right or godly. It's a no brainer, it is immodest.I believe that Scripture cannot be used to defend the West's viewpoint that it's sinful for women to be publicly topless.
I want to challenge my viewpoint, and the quality of my arguments.
Prove me wrong, using scripture or rationality that's based on Christian principles in order to do so.
The burden of proof lies with the one asserting a positive, therefore you get to argue first.
Let's start with the Bible:I believe that Scripture cannot be used to defend the West's viewpoint that it's sinful for women to be publicly topless.
I want to challenge my viewpoint, and the quality of my arguments.
Prove me wrong, using scripture or rationality that's based on Christian principles in order to do so.
The burden of proof lies with the one asserting a positive, therefore you get to argue first.
I think you can use the Bible to argue, either way.I believe that Scripture cannot be used to defend the West's viewpoint that it's sinful for women to be publicly topless.
Actually Adam and Eve’s nakedness were both covered by God. Show me where Scripture tells us that God covered Eve’s top but not Adam’s.Women who expose themselves in public are attention seekers and are not modest. Eve's nakedness was covered by God himself. Going around naked, knowing what men are like, is inciting men to lust and that can't be right or godly. It's a no brainer, it is immodest.
Of course it is, it's about modesty overall, and that would include not showing ones boobs to the world. Like I said, just a little common sense. If you can't see it, you don't want to see it.
This is like arguing white is black, and it's time for me to get out now, before I start making fun of what your doing here.
I can't prove it one way or the other from Scripture because the data isn't there. But I can provide what I saw when I was working in rural West Africa.I believe that Scripture cannot be used to defend the West's viewpoint that it's sinful for women to be publicly topless.
I want to challenge my viewpoint, and the quality of my arguments.
Prove me wrong, using scripture or rationality that's based on Christian principles in order to do so.
The burden of proof lies with the one asserting a positive, therefore you get to argue first.
Show me in scripture where God covered Eve's bottom and not her top. Bible is silent on many things. That alone does not legitimize them.Actually Adam and Eve’s nakedness were both covered by God. Show me where Scripture tells us that God covered Eve’s top but not Adam’s.
I mentioned part of that, earlier. Also, although women's sex drives are weaker than men's: their drives are not weak. Women are at risk of lusting over shirtless men, yet that's rarely considered to be an issue. And it used to be that for a woman to expose her ankle was scandalous; now, no one cares.
Of course. I do know that without being reminded but this thread is about women's nakedness so I only mentioned the woman.Actually Adam and Eve’s nakedness were both covered by God. Show me where Scripture tells us that God covered Eve’s top but not Adam’s.
I dont know why you have quoted me in this thread? I never posted in it.
Women who expose themselves in public are attention seekers and are not modest. Eve's nakedness was covered by God himself. Going around naked, knowing what men are like, is inciting men to lust and that can't be right or godly. It's a no brainer, it is immodest.
Let's start with the Bible:
1 Timothy 2:9-10
9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
For women to dress modestly, they cannot go topless. That has been agreed upon by believers from every country and culture in the world for thousands of years.
Even most non-Christians agree with this.
Proverbs chapter 5. Drink water from your own cistern. May you rejoice in the wife of your youth. May her breasts satisfy you always. Why embrace the bosom of another man's wife? For a man's ways are in full view of the Lord. The evil deeds of a wicked man ensnare him; he will die for lack of discipline, led astray by his own great folly.
If we should have exposed breasts why should it stop there? There's always more to be seen in the way of nudity. Maybe since we can have public nudity of breasts, why not public fondling of breasts or squeezing or handling? Why must we draw lines of appropriate behavior? This is no end in itself. There is no end. It is just another downward step in a process of endless downward travel. Does anyone foolishly think that a relaxing of standards in one place will stop at that place? "Temptation to sin is sure to come, but woe to him (or her) by whom it comes." Don't be ridiculous and think that exposed breasts is the final end in itself. It always continues. When one step is accomplished it always moves on to the next step. Guaranteed!
Rom 1:1-5,16,17 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle & set apart for the GOSPEL of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the HOLY Scriptures, regarding His Son, who was a descendant of David according to the flesh & who through the Spirit of HOLINESS was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Through Him & on behalf of His Name, we received grace & apostleship to call all those among the Gentiles TO THE OBEDIENCE THAT COMES FROM FAITH. I am NOT ASHAMED OF THE GOSPEL, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek. 17For the gospel reveals the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
I Tim 1:5-8 The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a PURE heart, a CLEAR conscience, and a sincere (unhypocritical) faith. But some people have missed this whole point. They have turned away from these things and spend their time in meaningless discussions.
Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Indeed, both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Ligonier Ministries
The Rebellion of Nudity and the Meaning of Clothing
God’s Covering of Man’s Nakedness
When You Need to Cover Nakedness
I Thess 5:15,21-23 Make sure that no one repays evil for evil. Always pursue what is good for one another and for all people. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; separate yourselves from all appearance of evil. Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your entire spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Tim 2:14,15 Don't let anyone forget these things. And with God as your witness, you must warn them not to argue about words to no profit. These arguments don't help anyone. In fact, they ruin everyone who listens to them. Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles (rightly divides) the word of truth.
2 Tim 2:22-24 Flee from youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant questionings, because you know that they produce contentions.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the Law, because these things are pointless and worthless.
I Tim 6:3-5 If anyone teaches another doctrine and disagrees with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and with godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing, but has an unhealthy interest in controversies and verbal disputes. This gives rise to envy, dissension, slanders, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind who are devoid of the truth.
I Cor 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
Rom 16:17,18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
I think you can use the Bible to argue, either way.
What matters the most is that inside ourselves we are being modest, not trying to call attention to immoral stuff. But be about Jesus, so this can spread spiritually to others >
"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)
It seems to me, how even Christians can evaluate a woman by how attractive she looks, in judging if she is desirable for marriage. This, in my opinion, is judging by appearance, instead of evaluating if she is an example of how Jesus has us becoming and learning how to love. So, if men are judging by looks, they can be missing out on learning how to love, not finding a lady who can help them get real in God's way of loving; and so they are weak so they can break down in close sharing with their wives, giving in to arguing and complaining and bitterness.
So, I think a much more important concern is not only about how a woman shows herself outwardly, but how culture is grooming men to evaluate women by looks and toning of their voices . . . .
My opinion, then, is the topless issue is not what needs to get our attention, so much as how men can be misled about what is love and what is not exactly. Our attention needs, in any case, to stay with personally submitting to howsoever God our Father rules us in our hearts with His own peace >
"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)
I do have some thoughts. Paul does say he became all things to all people, so he could win people to Jesus > 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. So, from this I can see the point of going along with dress codes where the culture and church mores favor a lady covering up. But if I were in a jungle village where people were uncovered, I might loosen up, myself, but still with limits the villagers might not have.
I think I have seen how a woman can present herself seductively, even if she is totally or pretty much totally covered . . . by how she moves, toning her voice, how she can do a little flash of an ankle, or how she might show a bit of cleavage can be enough to get a man going. But a woman's face and hair can be especially beautiful, more than the rest of her whole body, it seems to me.
But the most beautiful are the mature ladies in Jesus love > this gets my attention more, now> how they can effect me with God's love so I am loving instead of looking.
By the way, the bait you use can be what chooses the fish you catch. I have seen how women can be sassy and dress like they are going to a porn try-out, then they act so aghast that the men they marry turn out to be con artists and cheaters and not responsible and unable to relate well. The bait you use can be what chooses.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?