Protestant errors and inventions (3)

[Stryder06]

GC?

Great Controversy

 

[Albion]

Still full of errors.

Okay, some folk have registered objections and some folk have pointed to new errors. Below is the revised list taking into account justifiable objections and justifiable new errors.

1. A bible with only 66 books.
2. Saint Paul's letters are not inspired.
3. Sola Scriptura - In English "Scripture alone" is the theory (unsupported by sacred scripture) that "all things necessary for God's glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: to which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or apostolic tradition".
4. Prima Scriptura - A doctrine teaching that besides canonical scripture, there are other guides for what a believer should believe, and how he or she should live; the ways of knowing or understanding God and his will, that do not originate from canonized scripture, are in a second place, perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures.[Editorial note: in many ways Prima Scriptura is an improvement over sola scriptura, it does, however, suffer from the core disadvantage of sola scriptura in that it is neither a teaching of scripture itself nor does it adequately deal with Apostolic Tradition and Magisterial authority.]
5. Personal interpretation of scripture as normative for individual faith content determination.
6. Faith alone - In Latin "sola fide" is the theory (unsupported by scripture fact) that salvation is obtained by faith alone.
7. Total depravity - one of the five points of Calvinism (All human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God's ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so).
8. Unconditional election - second point of Calvinism (If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.).
9. Limited atonement - third point of Calvinism (Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for "limited" atonement would be "particular" or "specific" redemption.).
10. Irresistible grace - fourth point of Calvinism (When God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God's grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God's purpose).
11. Perseverance of the saints - the fifth point of Calvinism (You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.) [This belief is similar to OSAS but not quite the same.]
12. Double predestination. [In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us." -- R. C. Sproul]
13. Lapsarianism:The logical order of God's decrees in Calvinist theology is the study of the logical order (in God's mind, before Creation) of the decree to ordain or allow the fall of man and reprobation in relation to his decree to elect and save sinners. Several opposing positions have been proposed, all of which have names with the Latin root lapsus meaning fall.
    1. Supralapsaranism; Supralapsarianism (also antelapsarianism) is the view that God's decrees of election and reprobation logically preceded the decree of the fall.
    2. Infralapsarianism/Sublapsarianism; Infralapsarianism (also called postlapsarianism and sublapsarianism) asserts that God's decrees of election and reprobation logically succeeded the decree of the fall. The words can also be used in connection with other topics, e.g. supra- and infralapsarian christology.
14. Penal substitutionary atonement - A widespread Reformed conception of the Atonement is that in Christ’s Passion and death, God the Father poured out all of His wrath for the sins of the elect, on Christ the Son. In Christ’s Passion and death, Christ bore the punishment of the Father’s wrath that the elect deserved for their sins.
15. Ordinances/Anti-sacramentalism.
16. Infant dedication (not baptism) in a worship-service. [This is a common practise in many groups but rarely has a formal doctrine accompanying it as an explanation of why it is done.]
17. It isn't baptism unless one is submerged.
18. Only people old enough to say the sinner's prayer can be baptised.
19. One is born again by saying & believing the sinner's prayer (or a near equivalent).
20. Believer's baptism as a public testimony to one's faith but not as the washing away of one's sins nor as the means by which God brings about the birth from above.
21. Covenant baptism as a sign and symbol of inclusion into the new covenant community but not as the means by which God gives sanctifying grace.
22. The Lord's supper as sign and symbol but not as the body and blood of the Lord.
23. Two greater and five lesser Sacraments
24. Dispensing with baptism and the Lord's supper altogether. [A few groups have dropped all sacraments.]
25. The rapture
    1. A pre tribulation rapture.
    2. A mid tribulation rapture.
    3. A post tribulation rapture.
26. A future seven year reign of anti-christ with three and a half years of Israelite temple worship.
27. Dispensationalism: scripture must be rightly divided by applying a scheme of dispensations to it; usually seven dispensations are taken as normative but other additional dispensations are sometimes included.
28. The sermon on the mount as "old testament teaching" that's not applicable under the new covenant.
29. Once saved always saved.
    1. Once saved always saved even when one denies the faith some time after being saved.
    2. Rededications even though once saved always saved.
30. Sermon centric worship - being an explanation of the meaning of the text of scripture or a lesson on morals or doctrine for the instruction of the congregation - is the central act of worship in the gathering of the Lord's people on the Lord's day.
31. The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.
32. The One True Church is not a visible institution.
33. Denominationalism.
34. The pulpit ought to be the focus of a church building's architecture and the table for use on communion ought to be to the side or located in a different part of the church because there is no altar in the church and no sacrifice is made in a church service.
35. Equivocating "worship" and "worship service" - meaning that worship in a small group consisting of two or more is the same as the 'worship service' one would normally experience on a Sunday in a church [building]. [Not a formal doctrine but a widely held view of Christian worship among some of those in denominations and also some in non-denominational and other groups.]
36. Lone ranger Christianity - the belief that one need not be associated with any church or group. While this is not a denominational belief it is sufficiently widespread to make a kind of theology of its own.
37. Emergent church movement; Emerging churches are fluid, hard to define, and varied; they contrast themselves with what has gone before by using the term "inherited church." Key themes of the emerging church are couched in the language of reform, Praxis-oriented lifestyles, Post-evangelical thought, and incorporation or acknowledgement of political and Post-modern elements. Terminological confusion has occurred because of the use of words with similar etymology. When used as descriptors "emerging" and "emergent" can be interchangeable. However, when used as names, they are different. In this case "Emerging" refers to the whole informal, church-based, global movement, whilst "Emergent" to a formal, organisational subset associated with Brian McLaren: the "Emergent stream." -- from Wikipedia
38. Prosperity gospel: Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, or the gospel of success) is a Christian religious doctrine that financial blessing is the will of God for Christians, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to Christian ministries will always increase one's material wealth. Based on non-traditional interpretations of the Bible, often with emphasis on the Book of Malachi, the doctrine views the Bible as a contract between God and humans: if humans have faith in God, he will deliver his promises of security and prosperity. Confessing these promises to be true is perceived as an act of faith, which God will honour.
39. Congregations electing their ministers.
40. Seeker sensitive churches.
41. Accountability partners.
42. Altar calls.
43. Church discipline effectively nullified because of the difficulty of enforcement in a multi-denominational community. [You can't excommunicate a protestant - seems to be an observation about the effective impossibility of excommunicating or otherwise disciplining a person in one denomination if they can hop over to some other denomination and fellowship there as if nothing had happened.]
44. Temperance movement: A temperance movement is a social movement urging reduced or prohibited use of alcoholic beverages. Temperance movements typically criticize excessive alcohol use, promote complete abstinence (teetotalism), or pressure the government to enact anti-alcohol legislation or complete prohibition of alcohol. ... Alcohol is wicked, "a devil's brew".
45. Christians shall have no shellfish, crustaceans, pork, or any 'unclean meat' because they are forbidden in the Law of Moses.
46. The papacy is the antichrist.
47. A specific pope will be the antichrist.
48. Michael the Archangel and Jesus being the same person.
49. Blessed assurance - possibly a variant on the perseverance of the saints, like once saved always saved.
50. Heaven being in the Orion nebula.
51. Soul Sleep: Death is an unconscious, sleep-like state. When Jesus Christ comes again, He will resurrect the dead who believe in Him and will take them to heaven. The dead who are unbelievers will be resurrected 1000 years later.
52. For a period of a thousand years the earth will be utterly desolate and only Satan and his angels will be on earth. At the end of the thousand years the the Holy City in heaven will descend to earth. The unrighteous dead will be resurrected and with Satan and his angels, they will surround the Holy City to attack God and His people. God will destroy Satan and his followers, hence removing sin forever.
53. Trail of blood - also known as Baptist successionism. It is the theory (unsupported by fact) that Jesus Christ is the founder of the Baptist denomination (Which in fact started around 1605 AD in England).
54. The Jesuit oath - An absurd fake oath that among other things says "make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons".
55. Oneness (denying the Trinity) - some might think this is a non-christian sect's doctrine while others are inclined to believe that Oneness Pentecostalism is within the confines of Christianity.

 

[bbbbbbb]

An Orthodox Jewish seder isn't the same thing. I'm speaking of the way it was done at the time of Christ.

And you know exactly how the seder was performed at the time of Christ how?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Still full of errors.

Yes, 55 protestant errors and inventions. like the topic title says.

 

[frogman2x]

Isn't that the premise of modern day protestantism? That the Church has become so corrupt and so far from it's roots that it takes a modern day self-described Berean to peer into the pages of the New Testament to try to recreate the Church to their own understanding?

Thus the next protestant error and invention:

Reinventing Church structure

I guess I need to go back to the beginning of this thread, which I will do, but I will say the all of what bbbbbb said is wrong. The church became corrupt under the Catholics and the reformtion tried to bring it back to it roots.

The goal of the reformation ws not to recreate the church to its own understanding. It was to try and bring it back to a Bible based and only the Bible as it guide for church doctrines.

kermit

 

[MoreCoffee]

Great Controversy

It is mainly from #27 in the fundamental beliefs:

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. ​

 

[Albion]

I guess I need to go back to the beginning of this thread, which I will do, but I will say the all of what bbbbbb said is wrong. The church became corrupt under the Catholics and the reformtion tried to bring it back to it roots.

The goal of the reformation ws not to recreate the church to its own understanding. It was to try and bring it back to a Bible based and only the Bible as it guide for church doctrines.

kermit

It looked to me like you and bbbbbbb have been saying the same thing, although you both chose your particular wording in hopes of being correctly understood by the reader.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I assuredly am willing to think of every saint as a priest, but object to the notion that some priests are worthy of the title, but the rest are not. Your church takes it several steps further in according special titles such as bishop, archbishop, cardinal, and pope to those accorded greater honor than "priests", which they have accorded to themselves.

The comments in the post above are inaccurate insofar as they do not take into account the following information.

The Greek word for priest is ᾿ἱερεύς but it is seldom used of new testament church leaders. In English the only word that has come to us from this Greek word is hierarchy. But priest (which comes from πρεσβυτέρου) took on a double task and came to mean both a ἱερεύς and a πρεσβυτέρου. Thus priest came to be seen not only as a presbyter but also as a hierarch. Elder is a common modern translation for the Greek word πρεσβυτέρου (presbyter is the English version of the word). In English the word "priest" is derived from πρεσβυτέρου - you can check that in a good English dictionary by looking up the etymology of the word "priest".

Bishop is a biblical title - some English bible translations use "overseer" instead of "bishop" to translate the Greek word ἐπίσκοπον (episcopon). You can find it in the KJV and in a number of modern English bibles. So Catholics using "priest" and "bishop" is biblical.

Archbishops are just bishops in larger diocese (called archdiocese). While cardinal carries the idea of a hinge, or a pivot, upon which a structure turns. Thus a cardinal is a bishop who serves as pivot for turning from a deceased pope to a new pope. Cardinals are still only bishops. Their only distinction is that they elect a new pope when the time comes for such an election.

It is also significant that in English these issues are compounded by the English language itself, while in Greek, Latin, Italian, French and other languages no such difficulties exist because the ancient distinction between ἱερεύς , πρεσβυτέρου, and ἐπίσκοπον were maintained. And it ought to be noted that the majority of Catholics are not native English speakers nor does that Catholic Church write theology primarily in English so the words and terms used in Latin and French as well as Italian (which are the main languages used in Catholic theology) are not always strictly differentiated as they are in Latin etcetera.

That is a very good description of the evolution of church organization over time. One of the difficulties in accepting the idea that the New Testament organization of the church was inadequate and in need of refining, is that it assumes that progressive revelation on this doctrine is necessary and that God, in His infinite ignorance, failed to consider what the Church really should have been. The Apostles failed miserably in their feeble attempts to organize the Church, leaving the task to more enlightened men of a later age.

It's a truthful description of the meaning and derivation of words in the English language. It has little to say and intends to teach nothing whatever about the 'evolution' of church organisation. It is hard to understand how one could so misread it. The bold in the quote above is completely irrelevant to the content of the quote in red text.

 

[Stryder06]

It is mainly from #27 in the fundamental beliefs:

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.
​

Ok. Forgot you haven't read the GC. All of that is spelled out in there.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ok. Forgot you haven't read the GC. All of that is spelled out in there.

<chuckle chuckle chuckle>

Of course you'd say that. It's a point you've often attempted to make but for which you no sufficient justification.

 

[Stryder06]

<chuckle chuckle chuckle>

Of course you'd say that. It's a point you've often attempted to make but for which you no sufficient justification.

Sufficient justification for what? You not reading the GC or the teaching that the dead know not anything, the 1k years, and the destruction of Satan and sinners?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sufficient justification for what? You not reading the GC or the teaching that the dead know not anything, the 1k years, and the destruction of Satan and sinners?

Toss a coin and take your pick

Both are not quite right.

 

[Stryder06]

Toss a coin and take your pick

Both are not quite right.

In regards to you reading the GC, I'll apologize if I was wrong on that one. I could have sworn you told me you hadn't read all of it, but only parts.

In regards to the rest, there's substantial scriptual evidence that proves this to be the case. It's just sad that the doctrines of men trump the teachings of the scripture in this matter.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In regards to you reading the GC, I'll apologize if I was wrong on that one. I could have sworn you told me you hadn't read all of it, but only parts.

As the days and weeks pass more of it is read Thus I am reading and have read it. Dreadful book however, most wickedly biased and inaccurate.

In regards to the rest, there's substantial scriptural evidence that proves this to be the case. It's just sad that the doctrines of men trump the teachings of the scripture in this matter.

Well, being Seventh Day Adventist one would expect that the 27th fundamental belief might attract your support.

I, on the other hand, am not a SDA so FB #27 has no special status for me

 

[MoreCoffee]

By the way, did you read my post about the eucharist?

The Orate, fratres is like this:

Pray, brothers and sisters, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.​

The epiclesis of the mass is like this:

Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray, by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dew fall, so that they may become for us the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.​

And the Institution Narrative is like this:

At the time he was betrayed and entered willingly into his Passion, he took bread and, giving thanks, broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying:

Take this, all of you, and eat of it: for this is my Body which will be given up for you.

In a similar way, when supper was ended, he took the chalice and, once more giving thanks, he gave it to his disciples, saying:

Take this, all of you, and drink from it: for this is the chalice of my Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of me.​

And the Anamnesis is like this:

Therefore, as we celebrate the memorial of his Death and Resurrection, we offer you, Lord, the Bread of life and the Chalice of salvation, giving thanks that you have held us worthy to be in your presence and minister to you.​

And the epiclesis concludes like this:

Humbly we pray that, partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, we may be gathered into one by the Holy Spirit.​

And finally the Intercessions are like this:

Remember, Lord, your Church,spread throughout the world, and bring her to the fullness of charity, together with Francis our Pope and Timothy our Bishop and all the clergy.

Remember also our brothers and sisters who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection and all who have died in your mercy: welcome them into the light of your face. Have mercy on us all, we pray, that with the blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, with the blessed Apostles, and all the Saints who have pleased you throughout the ages, we may merit to be co-heirs to eternal life, and may praise and glorify you through your Son, Jesus Christ.​

 

[Stryder06]

As the days and weeks pass more of it is read Thus I am reading and have read it. Dreadful book however, most wickedly biased and inaccurate.

Wickedly biased and inaccurate? Well just keep reading

Well, being Seventh Day Adventist one would expect that the 27th fundamental belief might attract your support.

I, on the other hand, am not a SDA so FB #27 has no special status for me

It attracts my support because it's biblical. That's all there is too it. Not being popular doesn't make it any less true.

 

[Root of Jesse]

And you know exactly how the seder was performed at the time of Christ how?

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month between the two evenings is the LORD's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD; seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. And ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days; in the seventh day is a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. (Leviticus 23:5)
The biblical regulations for the observance of the festival require that all leavening be disposed of before the beginning of the 15th of Nisan. An unblemished lamb or goat, known as the Paschal Lamb, is to be set apart on Nisan 10, and slaughtered at dusk as Nisan 14 ends in preparation for the 15th of Nisan when it will be eaten after being roasted. The literal meaning of the Hebrew is "between the two evenings". It is then to be eaten "that night", Nisan 15, roasted, without the removal of its internal organs with unleavened bread, known as matzo, and bitter herbs known as maror. Nothing of the sacrifice on which the sun rises by the morning of the 15th of Nisan may be eaten, but must be burned. The sacrifices may only be performed in a specific place prescribed by God (for Judaism, Jerusalem, and for Samaritans, Mount Gerizim)..

From Exodus 12, 16, and Deuteronomy 16. This is how it was celebrated until the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

And you folks don't think Catholics read or know the Bible...

 

[Root of Jesse]

I guess I need to go back to the beginning of this thread, which I will do, but I will say the all of what bbbbbb said is wrong. The church became corrupt under the Catholics and the reformtion tried to bring it back to it roots.

The goal of the reformation ws not to recreate the church to its own understanding. It was to try and bring it back to a Bible based and only the Bible as it guide for church doctrines.

kermit

Well, it's impossible for the Church Christ founded to become corrupt. It's possible for people to corrupt an organization, but the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, so will not be corrupted. Now, then, or ever.

 

[Stryder06]

Well, it's impossible for the Church Christ founded to become corrupt. It's possible for people to corrupt an organization, but the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, so will not be corrupted. Now, then, or ever.

You've yet to show a single scripture showing that promise.

 

[Root of Jesse]

You've yet to show a single scripture showing that promise.

Which promise? That the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit?

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.
John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.
John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn't bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church's infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God's Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.
John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will "guide" the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.