Protestant errors and inventions (3)

[MoreCoffee]

1. A bible with only 66 books.
2. Saint Paul's letters are not inspired.
3. Sola Scriptura - In English "Scripture alone" is the theory (unsupported by sacred scripture) that "all things necessary for God's glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: to which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or apostolic tradition".

#1 true
#2 fringe groups only
#3 true and it is clearly supported by sacred scripture (why do they call it sacred when they think it incomplete, imperfect, and needs improvement by their traditions of men?)

Obliged that you acknowledged that #1,2,3 are errors of Protestantism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

As you are well aware, scripture has absolutely nothing in it about archbishops, cardinals, and a papal office. Catholic scholars teach that the primitive church had but two offices - elder (presbyter)/bishop (overseer) and deaconate.

That'd be three, right? presbyterial, episcopal, and deacon offices.

Everything that you mentioned can be traced over a period of time as various church organizations have evolved and language has developed.

Greek didn't need to develop to designate the three offices recognised in the ancient churches and in the new testament. The Greek words for those offices are clearly distinct; πρεσβυτέρου (presbyterial), ἐπίσκοπον (Episcopal), and διακονείτωσαν (Deaconate).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You won't take the words of our Catholic frineds, so you most likely will not take the words of a Lutheran either, but here goes... in the offertory prayer, Christ is not being re-sacrificed; the words of that prayer, as I recall "may this sacrifice be pleasing to God"; that sacrifice is not re-nailing our Lord to a cross, re-killing him; it is what is being done that is being offered, that is the celebration of the Mass.

It is this sacrifice of the work of the Priest and the parishioners that we Lutherans take issue with; they are not re-sacrificing Christ; He did it once and for all. The "for all" bit is why we Lutherans reject the idea of cooperation with one's salvation.

That and the illogical use of logic to support transubstantiation are the only two issues that we have with the Catholic Mass. Period.

Please stop telling everyone that the Catholics re-sacrifice Christ as though you know better than they and their catechism do. It makes you look foolish and uninformed, or resolutely ignorant, and weakens any case you have to promote protestant beliefs.

Reposing as it seems that this was not worthy of consideration or someone again threw up a diversionary post to draw attention to it.

SU, if you make accusations, be prepared to defend them, or stop posting garbage please.

 

[Rick Otto]

I didn't think it was garbage.

 

[Standing Up]

Reposing as it seems that this was not worthy of consideration or someone again threw up a diversionary post to draw attention to it.

SU, if you make accusations, be prepared to defend them, or stop posting garbage please.

I replied to your post, you must have missed it.

" Originally Posted by MarkRohfrietsch

You won't take the words of our Catholic frineds, so you most likely will not take the words of a Lutheran either, but here goes... in the offertory prayer, Christ is not being re-sacrificed; the words of that prayer, as I recall "may this sacrifice be pleasing to God"; that sacrifice is not re-nailing our Lord to a cross, re-killing him; it is what is being done that is being offered, that is the celebration of the Mass.

It is this sacrifice of the work of the Priest and the parishioners that we Lutherans take issue with; they are not re-sacrificing Christ; He did it once and for all. The "for all" bit is why we Lutherans reject the idea of cooperation with one's salvation. "
​

What are you saying?

 

[Standing Up]

Obliged that you acknowledged that #1,2,3 are errors of Protestantism.

Funny. #1 and #3 are true, not errors.

 

[Standing Up]

That's be three, right? presbyterial, episcopal, and deacon offices.

Greek didn't need to develop to designate the three offices recognised in the ancient churches and in the new testament. The Greek words for those offices are clearly distinct; πρεσβυτέρου (presbyterial), ἐπίσκοπον (Episcopal), and διακονείτωσαν (Deaconate).

As you said yourself, the separate priest office developed; it "came to mean". IOW, you agree with us, but just can't quite acknowledge it.

The early church knew only elder/bishop and deacon. All believers were of the priesthood. Read what St. Peter said, instead of later bishop opinion.

 

[MoreCoffee]

As you said yourself, the separate priest office developed; it "came to mean".

Oh no, you got that completely wrong. It is the English word that developed, not the priesthood. Surely you believe the priesthood of the faithful? The priesthood is a given not a development.

...

The early church knew only elder/bishop and deacon. All believers were of the priesthood. Read what St. Peter said, instead of later bishop opinion.

If the early church knew only elder/bishop and deacon then why have three distinct words with obviously distinct roles. Deacons are not presbyters nor bishops; presbyters are not bishops.

Many protestant groups have deacons, elders, and pastors. Some have deacons, priests, and bishops. I reckon you've pointed to yet another error in some protestant bodies. I'll make the necessary additions

 

[MoreCoffee]

A couple of new errors were suggested by conversations with interlocutor Standing UP

1. A bible with only 66 books.
2. Saint Paul's letters are not inspired.
3. Sola Scriptura - In English "Scripture alone" is the theory (unsupported by sacred scripture) that "all things necessary for God's glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: to which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or apostolic tradition".
4. Prima Scriptura - A doctrine teaching that besides canonical scripture, there are other guides for what a believer should believe, and how he or she should live; the ways of knowing or understanding God and his will, that do not originate from canonized scripture, are in a second place, perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures.[Editorial note: in many ways Prima Scriptura is an improvement over sola scriptura, it does, however, suffer from the core disadvantage of sola scriptura in that it is neither a teaching of scripture itself nor does it adequately deal with Apostolic Tradition and Magisterial authority.]
5. Personal interpretation of scripture as normative for individual faith content determination.
6. Faith alone - In Latin "sola fide" is the theory (unsupported by scripture fact) that salvation is obtained by faith alone.
7. Antinomianism.
   In Christianity, an antinomian is "one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation".
   
   The term antinomianism emerged soon after the Protestant Reformation (c.1517) and has historically been used as a pejorative against Christian thinkers or sects who carried their belief in justification by faith further than was customary. Antinomianism in modern times is commonly seen as the theological opposite to Legalism or Works righteousness, the notion that obedience to religious law earns salvation. This makes antinomianism an exaggeration of justification by faith alone. -- Wikipedia​
8. Total depravity - one of the five points of Calvinism (All human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God's ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so).
9. Unconditional election - second point of Calvinism (If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.).
10. Limited atonement - third point of Calvinism (Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for "limited" atonement would be "particular" or "specific" redemption.).
11. Irresistible grace - fourth point of Calvinism (When God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God's grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God's purpose).
12. Perseverance of the saints - the fifth point of Calvinism (You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.) [This belief is similar to OSAS but not quite the same.]
13. Double predestination. [In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us." -- R. C. Sproul]
14. Lapsarianism:The logical order of God's decrees in Calvinist theology is the study of the logical order (in God's mind, before Creation) of the decree to ordain or allow the fall of man and reprobation in relation to his decree to elect and save sinners. Several opposing positions have been proposed, all of which have names with the Latin root lapsus meaning fall.
    1. Supralapsaranism; Supralapsarianism (also antelapsarianism) is the view that God's decrees of election and reprobation logically preceded the decree of the fall.
    2. Infralapsarianism/Sublapsarianism; Infralapsarianism (also called postlapsarianism and sublapsarianism) asserts that God's decrees of election and reprobation logically succeeded the decree of the fall. The words can also be used in connection with other topics, e.g. supra- and infralapsarian christology.
15. Penal substitutionary atonement - A widespread Reformed conception of the Atonement is that in Christ’s Passion and death, God the Father poured out all of His wrath for the sins of the elect, on Christ the Son. In Christ’s Passion and death, Christ bore the punishment of the Father’s wrath that the elect deserved for their sins.
16. Ordinances/Anti-sacramentalism.
17. Infant dedication (not baptism) in a worship-service. [This is a common practise in many groups but rarely has a formal doctrine accompanying it as an explanation of why it is done.]
18. It isn't baptism unless one is submerged.
19. Only people old enough to say the sinner's prayer can be baptised.
20. One is born again by saying & believing the sinner's prayer (or a near equivalent).
21. Believer's baptism as a public testimony to one's faith but not as the washing away of one's sins nor as the means by which God brings about the birth from above.
22. Covenant baptism as a sign and symbol of inclusion into the new covenant community but not as the means by which God gives sanctifying grace.
23. The Lord's supper as sign and symbol but not as the body and blood of the Lord.
24. Two greater and five lesser Sacraments
25. Dispensing with baptism and the Lord's supper altogether. [A few groups have dropped all sacraments.]
26. The rapture
    1. A pre tribulation rapture.
    2. A mid tribulation rapture.
    3. A post tribulation rapture.
27. A future seven year reign of anti-christ with three and a half years of Israelite temple worship.
28. Dispensationalism: scripture must be rightly divided by applying a scheme of dispensations to it; usually seven dispensations are taken as normative but other additional dispensations are sometimes included.
29. The sermon on the mount as "old testament teaching" that's not applicable under the new covenant.
30. Once saved always saved.
    1. Once saved always saved even when one denies the faith some time after being saved.
    2. Rededications even though once saved always saved.
31. Sermon centric worship - being an explanation of the meaning of the text of scripture or a lesson on morals or doctrine for the instruction of the congregation - is the central act of worship in the gathering of the Lord's people on the Lord's day.
32. The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.
33. The One True Church is not a visible institution.
34. Denominationalism.
35. Rejection of the threefold office in the church. Deacon, Presbyter, and Bishop are the offices identified in sacred scripture and present in the church from the beginning. Some protestant bodies reduce this to Deacon and Elder some to Deacon and Pastor and some teach Deacon, Elder, and Pastor with Pastor distinguished only by being the "teaching elder" in a congregation.
36. Rejection of clerical laity distinction in the church.
37. The pulpit ought to be the focus of a church building's architecture and the table for use on communion ought to be to the side or located in a different part of the church because there is no altar in the church and no sacrifice is made in a church service.
38. Equivocating "worship" and "worship service" - meaning that worship in a small group consisting of two or more is the same as the 'worship service' one would normally experience on a Sunday in a church [building]. [Not a formal doctrine but a widely held view of Christian worship among some of those in denominations and also some in non-denominational and other groups.]
39. Lone ranger Christianity - the belief that one need not be associated with any church or group. While this is not a denominational belief it is sufficiently widespread to make a kind of theology of its own.
40. Emergent church movement; Emerging churches are fluid, hard to define, and varied; they contrast themselves with what has gone before by using the term "inherited church." Key themes of the emerging church are couched in the language of reform, Praxis-oriented lifestyles, Post-evangelical thought, and incorporation or acknowledgement of political and Post-modern elements. Terminological confusion has occurred because of the use of words with similar etymology. When used as descriptors "emerging" and "emergent" can be interchangeable. However, when used as names, they are different. In this case "Emerging" refers to the whole informal, church-based, global movement, whilst "Emergent" to a formal, organisational subset associated with Brian McLaren: the "Emergent stream." -- from Wikipedia
41. Prosperity gospel: Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, or the gospel of success) is a Christian religious doctrine that financial blessing is the will of God for Christians, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to Christian ministries will always increase one's material wealth. Based on non-traditional interpretations of the Bible, often with emphasis on the Book of Malachi, the doctrine views the Bible as a contract between God and humans: if humans have faith in God, he will deliver his promises of security and prosperity. Confessing these promises to be true is perceived as an act of faith, which God will honour.
42. Congregations electing their ministers.
43. Seeker sensitive churches.
44. Accountability partners.
45. Altar calls.
46. Church discipline effectively nullified because of the difficulty of enforcement in a multi-denominational community. [You can't excommunicate a protestant - seems to be an observation about the effective impossibility of excommunicating or otherwise disciplining a person in one denomination if they can hop over to some other denomination and fellowship there as if nothing had happened.]
47. Temperance movement: A temperance movement is a social movement urging reduced or prohibited use of alcoholic beverages. Temperance movements typically criticize excessive alcohol use, promote complete abstinence (teetotalism), or pressure the government to enact anti-alcohol legislation or complete prohibition of alcohol. ... Alcohol is wicked, "a devil's brew".
48. Christians shall have no shellfish, crustaceans, pork, or any 'unclean meat' because they are forbidden in the Law of Moses.
49. The papacy is the antichrist.
50. A specific pope will be the antichrist.
51. Michael the Archangel and Jesus being the same person.
52. Blessed assurance - possibly a variant on the perseverance of the saints, like once saved always saved.
53. Heaven being in the Orion nebula.
54. Soul Sleep: Death is an unconscious, sleep-like state. When Jesus Christ comes again, He will resurrect the dead who believe in Him and will take them to heaven. The dead who are unbelievers will be resurrected 1000 years later.
55. For a period of a thousand years the earth will be utterly desolate and only Satan and his angels will be on earth. At the end of the thousand years the the Holy City in heaven will descend to earth. The unrighteous dead will be resurrected and with Satan and his angels, they will surround the Holy City to attack God and His people. God will destroy Satan and his followers, hence removing sin forever.
56. Trail of blood - also known as Baptist successionism. It is the theory (unsupported by fact) that Jesus Christ is the founder of the Baptist denomination (Which in fact started around 1605 AD in England).
57. The Jesuit oath - An absurd fake oath that among other things says "make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons".
58. Oneness (denying the Trinity) - some might think this is a non-christian sect's doctrine while others are inclined to believe that Oneness Pentecostalism is within the confines of Christianity.

 

[Standing Up]

Oh no, you ot that completely wrong. It is the English word that developed, not the priesthood. Surely you believe the priesthood of the faithful? The priesthood is a given not a development.

Correct again. The priesthood of ALL believers is a given.

At Rome, the office of priest was separated from the priesthood of believer, which came to be the laity.

If the 'early church knew only elder/bishop and deacon then why have three distinct words with obviously distinct roles. Deacons are not presbyters nor bishops; presbyters are not bishops.

Many protestant groups have deacons, elders, and pastors. Some have deacons, priests, and bishops. I reckon you've point to yet another error in some protestant bodies. I'll make the necessary additions

NewAdvent.org might help you.

"This word (etymologically "elder", from presbyteros, presbyter) has taken the meaning of "sacerdos", "

You see? You said the same thing and now try to backpedal.

 

[Standing Up]

A couple of new errors were suggested by conversations with interlocutor Standing UP

1. A bible with only 66 books.
2. Saint Paul's letters are not inspired.
3. Sola Scriptura - In English "Scripture alone" is the theory (unsupported by sacred scripture) that "all things necessary for God's glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: to which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or apostolic tradition".-snipped due to inabilities beyond control-

#1 is true, not an error.
#2 is a fringe group belief, so silly, akin to those RCers who believe Mary had purple and green hair.
#3 is true, not an error. It is supported by scripture. But again, tell us MoreCoffee, improve upon the apostles and tell us what they left out necessary to know for salvation?

 

[Standing Up]

#34 Denominationalism.

Again, Rome invented denominationalism. Per Cyprian and Firmilian, Rome fell away from the Catholic Church over the baptism issue (Rome believed heretical baptism as the same as Christian baptism; however, Rome is finally admitting its error here recently.)

So, if a P error, so too a RC error.

 

[Standing Up]

#36 Rejection of clerical laity distinction in the church.

Like other things in the list, this is true; in the NT, there is only the one priesthood of all believers.

To be clear, however, some, like the Roman Church, do maintain the OT Levitical priest and laity model under the guise of Christianity.

(For those who like St. Peter, I wish they would actually read what St. Peter left.)

 

[Standing Up]

#32 The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.

Perhaps you think like Pope Stephen? That the One True Church includes any heretical group.

Do you prefer to try to destroy the Body of Christ and fail to discern it?

 

[MoreCoffee]

#1 is true, not an error.

#1 is truly an error.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

#1 is truly an error.

I have just finished reading the Deuterocanonical books and the Additions to Daniel and Ester. While I agree with Luther that there is reason to question the canonicity of these books, there is much to be gained in their study. In the case of Maccabees we get history (1 and 2 for sure) and lessons in morals and ethics in them and the other DC books; they also give us context in insight into the pious mind set of the Jewish people in that short period between the OT and the NT.

I am about to begin the reading of the other DC books from other Christian traditions, and, I'm sure, that they will be an edifying study as well.

Setting the DC books between the testaments in what Luther called "their own little spice garden", is, I believe where they should be.

To wilfully remove them is indeed one of the greatest errors of Protestantism.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

#32 The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.

Perhaps you think like Pope Stephen? That the One True Church includes any heretical group.

Do you prefer to try to destroy the Body of Christ and fail to discern it?

Then there are those who chose to cut off parts that do belong; feet and arm-pits may be a bit stinky, but they are still part of that Body called the "Church", and they still belong.

I know that you see us as those stinky armpits and feet; it may be that others see you as such too? Does that make either us or you unworthy to be considered part of that Body? Be mindful that our Lord washed the stinky, dirty feet of the Apostles, and by His blood, the rest of us stinky feet are cleansed from all unrighteousness.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...

Perhaps you think like Pope Stephen? ...

Which pope Stephen?

1. Pope Stephen I (died 257), Bishop of Rome from 254–257
2. Pope-elect Stephen (died 752), elected Pope but died before being ordained
3. Pope Stephen II (died 757), pope from 752–757
4. Pope Stephen III (720–772), pope from 768–772
5. Pope Stephen IV (died 817), pope from 816–817
6. Pope Stephen V (died 891), pope from 885–891
7. Pope Stephen VI (died 897), pope from 896–897
8. Pope Stephen VII (died 931), pope from 929–931
9. Pope Stephen VIII (died 942), German, pope from 939–942
10. Pope Stephen IX (c. 1020–1058), pope from 1057–1058

 

[Serpentslayer]

The written word is THE testimony of the real Jesus and it is a benchmark for testing good doctrine from the many false doctrines invented in the last almost 2000 years.

You see much of how the little tight nit church communities operated in Europe was by the gathering of sacred scrolls for good doctrine to teach from. The manuscripts were sealed by apostles and copied under a controlled copy program of the 1st century church that ensured there was no inconsistencies within the teachings.

If you recall the thousands upon thousands of manuscripts collected from these small tight nit church communities in Europe in order to put together the Holy Bible with 99.999999999% accuracy, it just goes to show you how important it was for the 1st century church to make sure they had control on the manuscripts..

No doubt many denominations want to claim their own doctrines, but at the end of the day if they are in conflict to the 1st century written word then the latter cannot be true. It's like Mohammad coming up with his Koran hundreds of years later, that we know is a false gospel.

So too have some denominations gone in Mohammad's footsteps by establishing their very own Gospels which are completely separate from the 1st century church. These denominations then dangerously place their ecclesiastical authority to warrant such gospels, yet as Christians we know that such actions are attributes of the cults.

So many denominations need to do a self check to ensure they aren't going in the direction of the cults in veering off course from the gospel of Jesus Christ to other gospels and claiming it is ecclesiastically inspired. I assure you God being the author doesn't change his focus away from his beloved Son Christ Jesus.

Now having the universal Holy Bible in our hands today goes to show you that it is the Lord's doing and compare this consistency from the one and only author God to the many denominations that have a miss mash of many other gospels.

Now all the denominations have the Holy Bible but not all the denominations have each others ecclesiastical gospels. So what does this go to tell you.

There are thousands of Christian denominations out there with their own unique doctrines yet there is only One Holy Bible, so what does that go to tell you?

I think you get the drift.

 

[Stryder06]

Which promise? That the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit?

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

You're adding more to this verse than what it says. There is no guarantee that error will not be taught.

John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

The church is not limited to only the apostles and their successors. And this verse says nothing about the churches authroity to teach on "morals". If you didn't notice, the disciples weren't making up teachings, but expounding upon what had already been taught in the scriptures.

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn't bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church's infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God's Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

There is no indication that this has anything to do with infallible doctrine. Jesus said this to the disciples before His death. Knowing how they'd be crushed once they saw Him die, He knew He'd have to wait till after the resurrection to teach them more. You are implying more here than what the scripture says. Nowhere does the bible speak about "public" revelation coming to an end. I do agree however that some things take longer to understand and that God will open up truths to our hearts over time, the caveat there being that those truths are opened up to us as we study and pray.

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will "guide" the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

While I believe this applies to the church, i.e those who follow after Christ, this verse says nothing about it being solely for the "Church" i.e the RCC. Some things may take time to understand because they are a bit meatier, but this is no statement showing that certain doctrine will eventually be developed once the people are ready to receive it.