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hmmmm so yes .. the church Jesus speaks of cannot fail .. so what did fail .. is not his church then?
profound question .. i'll live in that one .
I'm not sure whom I agree with on this one.
The people can err, and they are the Church. But mistakes do not constitute the Church failing. Despite many errors, it prevails and continues to grow--just as that Scripture indicates.
OTOH, I can't agree that the institutional church, compared by Mark to the Sanhedrin, is what that verse in the Bible is referring to.
hahah we'll just say God is right and call it a day
Well i just mean the bible says .. this is what the church does . so if it stops doing that . then is it no longer the church, though it calls itself as such? i recall the church of Ephesus was faced with the crisis of having their candlestick snuffed out .
hmmmm so yes .. the church Jesus speaks of cannot fail .. so what did fail .. is not his church then?
profound question .. i'll live in that one .. and let God judge the answer .
I'm not sure whom I agree with on this one.
The people can err, and they are the Church. But mistakes do not constitute the Church failing. Despite many errors, it prevails and continues to grow--just as that Scripture indicates.
OTOH, I can't agree that the institutional church, compared by Mark to the Sanhedrin, is what that verse in the Bible is referring to.
I agree except that it's obvious (I'd think) that when the New Testament is referring to the Church, it means the whole body, not the part of the Church that is at Ephesus or anywhere else. So that means we are back to the main point--the Church cannot fail, although it can err and individuals within it can fail.
The Church that cannot fail are all those that were, are, and will be "inwardly" in the Una-Sancta, ie, the Kingdom of God, upon one's passing. Now the 'conundrum of what did fail,' ie, something to do with those that are in "outwardly"?
Just ol' old outward Jack
i agree that this church
1577 ekklhsia ekklesia ek-klay-see-ah
from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; TDNT-3:501,394; n f
AV-church 115, assembly 3; 118
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
1d2) a company of Christians, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for orders sake
1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
1d5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
usages of strongs word 1577
Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church <1577>; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church <1577>: but if he neglect to hear the church <1577>, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church <1577> daily such as should be saved.
Ac 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church <1577>, and upon as many as heard these things.
Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church <1577> in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Ac 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church <1577> which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Ac 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church <1577>, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Ac 9:31 Then had the churches <1577> rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
Ac 11:22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church <1577> which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
Ac 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church <1577>, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Ac 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church <1577>.
Ac 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church <1577> unto God for him.
Ac 13:1 Now there were in the church <1577> that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Ac 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church <1577>, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
Ac 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church <1577> together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
Ac 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church <1577>, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Ac 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church <1577>, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Ac 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church <1577>, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Ac 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches <1577>.
Ac 16:5 And so were the churches <1577> established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Ac 18:22 And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up, and saluted the church <1577>, he went down to Antioch.
Ac 19:32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly <1577> was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
Ac 19:39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly <1577>.
Ac 19:41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly <1577>.
Ac 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church <1577>.
Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church <1577> of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Ro 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church <1577> which is at Cenchrea:
Ro 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches <1577> of the Gentiles.
Ro 16:5 Likewise greet the church <1577> that is in their house. Salute my wellbel .
Luther was excommunicated for being disobedient to the authority he vowed obedience to. He regretted what happened as a result of his actions. He meant to reform the Catholic Church, but tried to do it in his own way, rather than in God's way. Now look at the splintering-35,000 different denominations.Oh my goodness... No! Luther began life was a Roman Catholic and was excommunicated for beginning the Protestant Reformation! His whole career was dedicated to restoring the pure preaching of the gospel!
So, what term can we use to speak of the Christian Church who aren't Catholic?And I can do w/o the love that uses the term "protestant". Perhaps we can come to some kind of settlement on each of those terms.
Romanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Romanist)
Romanism was a word used as a derogatory term for Roman Catholicism in the past when anti-Catholicism was more common in the United States and the United Kingdom. The term was frequently used in late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century Republican invectives against the Democrats, as part of the slogan "Rum, rebellion, and Romanism" (referencing the Democratic party's constituency of Southerners and anti-Temperance, frequently Catholic, working-class immigrants).
The term and slogan gained particular prominence in the 1928 presidential campaign, in which the Democratic candidate was the outspokenly anti-Prohibition Catholic Governor of New York Al Smith. The term is still used, though rarely, by anti-Catholics..........
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I learn through guidance of the HS from the holy scriptures which were themselves inspired by the HS.
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 ¶ These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Where does Scripture say that it is the only word of God? For that matter, when did "The Word" come to mean "Only the Written Word"? Jesus became incarnate, then spoke, then died and rose, all before a Christian word was ever written.He said Catholicism has everything written down and easy to understand, and i responded by saying the scriptures are already written down, and that i can read and study with other believers and learn by Gods spirit, and so i don't need the guidance of the RC Church for that.
Name a denomination other than your own that agrees with all your interpretations of Scripture, and enumerate, please.Well, let's be honest; after all, it's not as if RC has anyone else agreeing with it on its interpretations either.
OTOH, if the salvation message is simple---believe on the Lord Jesus---then the voice is clear and loud and united. It's all those other Tradtions that confuse.
So, I guess you and tadoflamb are very close, for you to know what he thinks...I didn't make a mistake there. That's the way you see Christianity, Christ's Gospel, and salvation. I obviously see those matters differently. In the light of the Bible's teachings, you might say.
Then you are not one of those who delights in saying that it's somehow ignorant or foolish to refer to the Scriptures as the "Word of God?" That would be good, then.
I know that that's one of the RC talking points, but in fact it's no more accurate than saying that your Traditions that take the place of Scripture are also received by you through a private judgment. All that really matters is what it is that we are interpreting...and whether it is God's truth or something else.
Obviously, I'd say, the Word of God can't be inferior to anything else, even though there are millions of people who prefer Tradition or direct revelations (they claim) from the Holy Spirit or assemble their own versions of sacred writings (as we can read advocated over on the Unorthodox Theology forum).
It is somewhat ironic that you'd put it that way. "Evangelical" means Gospel-centered, and I'm the one advocating for the authority of the Gospel here!
Where does Scripture say that it is the only word of God? For that matter, when did "The Word" come to mean "Only the Written Word"? Jesus became incarnate, then spoke, then died and rose, all before a Christian word was ever written.
The Church does not put anything above Scripture. Period.
If the salvation message is simple, why are their so many interpretations of that message?
Which means that, in the 'first' days, the message was sound. That's the way the Catholic Church sees it, too.Because in the last days men will not endure sound doctrine...
Exactly.So tradition isn't above scripture? It's more like on the same plain? Just looking for clarity.
Even if they came before?Christian's are those who follow after Christ. That would rightfully make the prophets Christians.
Exactly.
Which means that, in the 'first' days, the message was sound. That's the way the Catholic Church sees it, too.
Even if they came before?I think we're speaking of NT doctrine, at any rate. There was no "Word of Christ" written until it had been spoken.
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