Protestant Doctrine

[calmcoolandelected]

Ok. I would like to say that I do realise that there were substantial abuses at the time that Martin Luther broke away and I am not proud of how individuals in the Church handled those abuses. I can understand where your perspective comes from. I was just trying to show that it was not the "truth" of the Church - ie, the Church's doctrines etc that were at fault, but some of the individuals in the church. Hard to explain - not sure I am doing a great job. I would like to also mention that the Catholic counter reformation had already begun from within at this point.

But don't some of the "individuals", even in the church have to interpret the teachings of the church and form church doctrine?

No one is infallible. So how can we objectively know what is Truth?

CC&E

 

[ksen]

We know historically that Nero persecuted the Christian Church in the 1st century. He falsely accused Christian of the burning of Rome.

It's not that it' s just something written. It is the continuity and consistency of the doctrines of the Church that have been found in archeological evidence.

It is was some sect that wrote those things in the catacombs do you honestly belive that those beliefs would have survived for 2000yrs?

Peace

Are you saying there were no false teachings and teachers back in the first century? If there weren't then why did Paul spend so much time warning first century believers to watch out for unsound doctrine that was already appearing in the churches?

What makes the writing on walls in the catacombs authoritative for the Church?

 

[JJB]

hmmmm....

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lutherltr-indulgences.html

"Papal indulgences for the building of St. Peter's are circulating under your most distinguished name, and as regards them, I do not bring accusation against the outcries of the preachers, which I have not heard, so much as I grieve over the wholly false impressions which the people have conceived from them; to wit, -- the unhappy souls believe that if they have purchased letters of indulgence they are sure of their salvation; again, that so soon as they cast their contributions into the money-box, souls fly out of purgatory; furthermore, that these graces [i.e., the graces conferred in the indulgences] are so great that there is no sin too great to be absolved..."

You're making me want to watch this today:


psst -- indulgences only provide springing from purgatory, not hell. at least, i think that's how it goes. i'm sure someone can correct me, tho.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Why not? Paganism has been around for a lot longer than 2000 years. People who worship other "gods" have been around for longer than 2000 years.

You completely missed the point. Longer doesn't mean a thing here. It has to be 2000 years because that's when Jesus walked the earth and handed the Faith to the Apostles who in turn handed it down to the first post-Apostolic Church who have preserved it down through all the ages from then to our own time.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Protestants do have doctrine as is evidenced by our confessions. Just as the RCC has doctrine that it can openly site here on CF, I would like to openly present this Protestant doctrine.

The Belgic Confession of 1619
Article 29

Just one tiny comment - and then I'll leave this whole issue to others...

The Belgic Confession is a Calvinist Confession.

While Calvinists are Protestants, most Protestants are not Calvinists.


I'll just politely excuse myself now...

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

I'm a Protestant. My doctrines all come from the Bible.

Lets discuss Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is a false man made doctrine first invented in the sixteenth century. Sola Scriptura is not Biblical. The bible says that Scripture is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training. That doesn't even come close to saying only scripture alone.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Lets discuss Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is a false man made doctrine first invented in the sixteenth century that is not in the Bible.

Some of MY personal thoughts...


1. And this has WHAT to do with this thread?

2. Sola Scriptura is not a doctrine, it's an epistemological principle of norming.

3. Jesus quoted Authoritatively from the Scriptures some 50 times, and that was long before the 16th Century. Peter and Paul also repeatedly directed us to Scripture as normative. None of them even once directed us to the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Church or the Magisterium thereof or any other institution as the norma normans for theology nor as the "sole final arbiter" for the norming of theology. But we already have threads to evaluate the two primary principles of norming in Christianity - Sola Scriptura and Sola Ecclesia, so there's no need to hijack this thread for that evaluation.


MY thoughts...


Pax.


- Josiah


.

 

[cathmomof3]

You're making me want to watch this today:





psst -- indulgences only provide springing from purgatory, not hell. at least, i think that's how it goes. i'm sure someone can correct me, tho.

I think I will have to pass on the movie

 

[xapis]

Lets discuss Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is a false man made doctrine first invented in the sixteenth century. Sola Scriptura is not Biblical. The bible says that Scripture is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training. That doesn't even come close to saying only scripture alone.

In addition to what Josiah has already said (well put, btw)... if the Scriptures are the True Word of God then anyone claiming that theirs is the "One True Church" should never have any trouble reconciling the actions and doctrines of that church with God's Word. I have not found that to be the case with Roman Catholicism.

 

[cathmomof3]

In addition to what Josiah has already said (well put, btw)... if the Scriptures are the True Word of God then anyone claiming that theirs is the "One True Church" should never have any trouble reconciling the actions and doctrines of that church with God's Word. I have not found that to be the case with Roman Catholicism.

I respectfully disagree...I have found nothing in the scriptures that contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Faith.

 

[seekingpurity047]

I respectfully disagree...I have found nothing in the scriptures that contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Faith.

Indulgences? Praying to mary?

 

[cathmomof3]

Indulgences? Praying to mary?

The Catholic Church's definition - not yours....Contradicted? Where?

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

1. And this has WHAT to do with this thread?.

Now you know very well that it was a reply to 7cworldwide,s post since I quoted his post in my reply. Am I not allowed to respond to another poster? Shame on you for misrepresenting my post like that. Here it is again verbatim.

I'm a Protestant. My doctrines all come from the Bible.

Lets discuss Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is a false man made doctrine first invented in the sixteenth century. Sola Scriptura is not Biblical. The bible says that Scripture is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training. That doesn't even come close to saying only scripture alone.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Some of MY personal thoughts ...


IMO, to insist that a viewpoint is true if it doesn't "contradict" Scripture, to insist that a teacher (individual, congregation or denomination) is correct because nothing "contradicts" Scripture presents an inadequate epistemology.


This implies that anything not specifically not contradicting the Bibe must be true. So, Jesus had 100 children? The Bible doesn't say He didn't, therefore it must be true? This seems like a very dangerous epistemology to me.

I note that Mormons use EXACTLY the same logic. They will insist - loudly - that nothing in the BofM, C&C and Pearl "contradict" the Bible, and from their perspective, they are correct. They use the same logical leap that if it doesn't contradict the Bible, therefore it's biblical and true. We reject this epistemology when Mormons use it.


Just some thoughts...


Back to the topic?


Pax


- Josiah


.

 

[seekingpurity047]

The Catholic Church's definition - not yours....Contradicted? Where?

What exactly are you even talking about? The Bible makes it quite clear that A) Mary was a sinner in need of a Saviour and, therefore, B) Mary is not worthy of worship/being prayed to.

Concerning indulgences. When I see somewhere in the bible that you can buy your way out of something called purgatory (which is also a false doctrine), I'll believe it. Oddly, it's nowhere to be found.

However, this thread is concerning PROTESTANT DOCTRINE, not Roman Catholic Doctrine.

The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying Him.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[seekingpurity047]

I respectfully disagree...I have found nothing in the scriptures that contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Faith.

Might I also ask a question concerning this very issue:

Are there Roman Catholic teachings that contradict the Scriptures though? Hmm...

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

In addition to what Josiah has already said ... if the Scriptures are the True Word of God then anyone claiming that theirs is the "One True Church" should never have any trouble reconciling the actions and doctrines of that church with God's Word. I have not found that to be the case with Roman Catholicism.

Nice try at ducking the issue. Now to continue the previous conversation, you said:

I'm a Protestant. My doctrines all come from the Bible.

To which I replied

quote]OK, Lets discuss Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is a false man made doctrine first invented in the sixteenth century. Sola Scriptura is not Biblical. The bible says that Scripture is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training. That doesn't even come close to saying only scripture alone. [/quote

I will be happy to respond to your contention above, but first, let's finish this conversation. So, do you have a response to what I said. If you don't want to discuss it further, just say so and it will be fine with me.

Grace and peace be with you.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Might I also ask a question concerning this very issue:

Are there Roman Catholic teachings that contradict the Scriptures though? Hmm...

No, there are not. Actually the New Testament Scripture is a result of Sacred Tradition. It is Sacred Tradition through the guidance of the Holy Spirit that determined the Canon of the New Testament.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Nice try at ducking the issue. Now to continue the previous conversation, you said:


To which I replied

quote]OK, Lets discuss Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is a false man made doctrine first invented in the sixteenth century. Sola Scriptura is not Biblical. The bible says that Scripture is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training. That doesn't even come close to saying only scripture alone. [/quote

I will be happy to respond to your contention above, but first, let's finish this conversation. So, do you have a response to what I said. If you don't want to discuss it further, just say so and it will be fine with me.

Grace and peace be with you.

You seem to be having a private discussion here with this member, but perhaps since you're making it public and doing so in this particular thread...


1. Is there a particular tie to the issue of the thread? If so, I think I'm not following it.

2. The poster said that his/her beliefs are from the Bible. No statement about epistmological principles of norming was made - no mention at all of Sola Scriptura or Sola Ecclesia, no mention of norming. The comment was that his/her beliefs are from the Bible.

3. Do you deny that his/her believes are from the Bible? Is that your point? Or is your point that it's irrelevant what the Bible says? Or is your point that it's irrelevant if theology comes from the Bible or from some unnamed other sources?

4. It seems to ME that if you want to discuss epistemological principles of norming in theology or the evaluation thereof, there are several threads currently open in GT for that purpose. If you want to question the beliefs of the poster as to whether they are biblical or not, you might be more specific as to what dogma you are questioning and your biblical support for that questioning.


Just some thoughts...


- Josiah

 

[Lynn73]

I respectfully disagree...I have found nothing in the scriptures that contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Faith.

Scriptures say all have sinned, Catholicism says Mary is sinless.

Purgatory, indulgences, penance, praying to saints and Mary?