Protestant Doctrine

[Trento]

Could have fooled me. I've heard Catholics say that water baptism saves. Isn't that believing that a ritual saves?

The first Protestant did also.

"Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" MARTIN LUTHER (Large Catechism 4:6).

Hermas


"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

 

[Lynn73]

Well, then I guess we can ignore all those verses in the Bible saying that believing and faith is necessary, can't we. Just dunk em in water, and they're saved. NOT. I don't have to agree with everything Martin Luther believed in order to agree with the Reformation. Cathmomof3 must be mistaken, then, because Catholics do believe that rituals save.

 

[cathmomof3]

Well, then I guess we can ignore all those verses in the Bible saying that believing and faith is necessary, can't we. Just dunk em in water, and they're saved. NOT. I don't have to agree with everything Martin Luther believed in order to agree with the Reformation. Cathmomof3 must be mistaken, then, because Catholics do believe that rituals save.

It really hurts me when others (WHO ARE NOT CATHOLIC) are constantly trying to twist what Catholics say and believe when they really have no idea what Catholics believe. I don't understand the reason for this - other than that is what they were tought.

If a Catholic says (and many protestants agree with this by the way) that we are saved through baptism, they are not saying that the "ritual" (your word not mine) saves us. It is the grace that we receive through the sacrament that saves us and being born again of water and spirit. Point is Catholics mean something different than what you mean when we say "Baptism" - we do not merely mean "being dunked" as you called it. It includes being born again. Don't you believe that you have to be "born again" to be saved? Much of the time, the misunderstandings/misrepresentation/misconceptions are due to a different way of saying the same thing.

 

[Lynn73]

There's more than one kind of baptism. Water baptism cannot save. However, yes, we must be born again which is when the Spirit bapizes us into the body of Christ. The point I'm trying to make is if a person gets water baptized and isn't a true believer, he goes into the water lost and comes out of it lost. There's no magic salvation in the water. People are saved by BELIEVING according to Scripture. By grace are ye saved through faith. It isn't common sense or biblical that getting immersed in water can give a person eternal life. They must have true faith in Christ. I also don't think that Catholics and Protestants are just saying the same thing in different ways. Our beliefs aren't the same.

 

[cathmomof3]

There's more than one kind of baptism. Water baptism cannot save. However, yes, we must be born again which is when the Spirit bapizes us into the body of Christ. The point I'm trying to make is if a person gets water baptized and isn't a true believer, he goes into the water lost and comes out of it lost. There's no magic salvation in the water. People are saved by BELIEVING according to Scripture. By grace are ye saved through faith. It isn't common sense or biblical that getting immersed in water can give a person eternal life. They must have true faith in Christ. I also don't think that Catholics and Protestants are just saying the same thing in different ways. Our beliefs aren't the same.

I pretty much agree with you...We are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. The water does not save us...The grace that we receive from Jesus by way of water baptism saves us (do you not think that when Catholics are baptised that we believe in Jesus?)...The bible says that we must be born again by water and spirit...

 

[JJB]

I pretty much agree with you...We are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. The water does not save us...The grace that we receive from Jesus by way of water baptism saves us (do you not think that when Catholics are baptised that we believe in Jesus?)...The bible says that we must be born again by water and spirit...

I think you're still not understanding. Protestans believe grace comes through God alone....no sacrament necessary. God administers grace in His good timing, not when we decide to be baptized, not when we decide to take the eucharist, or anything else we decide to "do" in order to become recipients of God's grace. He holds all of grace, He determines when.

 

[cathmomof3]

I think you're still not understanding. Protestans believe grace comes through God alone....no sacrament necessary. God administers grace in His good timing, not when we decide to be baptized, not when we decide to take the eucharist, or anything else we decide to "do" in order to become recipients of God's grace. He holds all of grace, He determines when.

So, why can't he "decide" to give us his grace when we ASK (and yes, you do have to ask for it even though it is available to all of us at all times) for it through his sacraments that he instituted in the first place. And yes, we believe that God is the sole source of this Grace too! There are also many protestants who agree with this as well...This is what the church fathers believed. This is what the early christians have believed and this is what the Catholic Church has tought for 2000 years.

 

[Lynn73]

I pretty much agree with you...We are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. The water does not save us...The grace that we receive from Jesus by way of water baptism saves us (do you not think that when Catholics are baptised that we believe in Jesus?)...The bible says that we must be born again by water and spirit...

Let me share something. I was water baptized at the age of 12. I didn't get saved (born again) until I was about 20. I had a Catholic tell me that I was saved at 12 and just didn't know it or something to that effect. That's nonsense, of course. All I before was a mental belief, I didn't know the Lord. I don't think that all who are water baptized are truly saved, no, because if it was so in my case then I'm betting there are other cases. It isn't the grace we receive by way of water baptism that saves, it's the grace we receive when we put our faith in Christ. It's like you said that you don't get saved by water baptism yet you do in reading your statement above. And how do you know that being born of water (and the Spirit) means water baptism. I find it difficult to believe the Lord will put someone in hell who has fully trusted in Christ as Savior yet hasn't been, for any number of reasons, water baptized.

 

[JJB]

You're correct. The false church asigns individuals the ability to create their own doctrines based on their "personal interpretation" and create new churches whenever they feel like it.

BTW, I did not write the confession, but it is certainly something I would be able, in good faith, to place my signature on. I can't recall the last time i created a new church.

 

[cathmomof3]

Let me share something. I was water baptized at the age of 12. I didn't get saved (born again) until I was about 20. I had a Catholic tell me that I was saved at 12 and just didn't know it or something to that effect. That's nonsense, of course. All I before was a mental belief, I didn't know the Lord. I don't think that all who are water baptized are truly saved, no, because if it was so in my case then I'm betting there are other cases. It isn't the grace we receive by way of water baptism that saves, it's the grace we receive when we put our faith in Christ. It's like you said that you don't get saved by water baptism yet you do in reading your statement above. And how do you know that being born of water (and the Spirit) means water baptism. I find it difficult to believe the Lord will put someone in hell who has fully trusted in Christ as Savior yet hasn't been, for any number of reasons, water baptized.

Again, you misunderstand Catholic doctrine...You WERE saved at Baptism as was I (when I was a few months old). For you to say that you were not saved at age 12 when you were baptized is a sacrelidge. We were saved from the stain of original sin at Baptism, which was inherited from Adam and Eve. As you know Catholics (and many protestants) do not believe in OSAS; therefore, I am currently being saved and I hope to be saved by persevering in Faith in Christ until the day I die. BTW, many protestant denoms believe in baptismal regeneration as well.

 

[cathmomof3]

It's like you said that you don't get saved by water baptism yet you do in reading your statement above. And how do you know that being born of water (and the Spirit) means water baptism. I find it difficult to believe the Lord will put someone in hell who has fully trusted in Christ as Savior yet hasn't been, for any number of reasons, water baptized.

I never said that you don't get saved by water baptism - I said that the actual water does not save us...I said you are saved by the grace that you receive at water baptism. Please quit twisting what I say to match what you have been tought incorrectly about the Catholic Faith.
BTW, I never said, nor does the Catholic church say that someone would be "put in hell" if they are not Baptized! That is not for ANY human being to judge. God is not bound by his sacraments. There are three forms of baptism BTW - water, by blood (the martys) and by desire (the good thief or if someone has accepted Jesus and has the desire to be baptised, but has not had the opportunity prior to death). I am merely saying that Jesus commanded us to be born anew by water and spirit and HE HIMSELF WAS BAPTISED (by water)!

 

[Jesdisciple]

Salvation is grace through faith whether we go underwater or not. You commit your life to God. = You're saved. Immersion/sprinkling/etc. is an obedient announcement of that commitment and salvation and has no effect on that commitment or salvation. Being an announcement, baptism is a post-salvation practice.

I want to suggest that this thread doesn't end up as a screaming/flaming/etc. duel as others have.

 

[cathmomof3]

Salvation is grace through faith whether we go underwater or not. You commit your life to God. = You're saved. Immersion/sprinkling/etc. is an obedient announcement of that commitment and salvation and has no effect on that commitment or salvation. Being an announcement, baptism is a post-salvation practice.

I want to suggest that this thread doesn't end up as a screaming/flaming/etc. duel as others have.

I agree that (see my title) salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I also believe that God bestows his grace in various ways and throughout our lives- including water baptism, the Eucharist, Sacrament of Matrimony, confession, confirmation etc etc....God does not give us Grace just once when I say "I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and savior". Water Baptism is an act of Faith. it provides us with the "initial" saving grace. What we do with that grace thereafter is up to us. I don't expect you to understand, nor to change your mind. I am merely stating what Catholics believe and have believed for 2000 years, what the Church fathers believed and what the early christians believed. For support go to scripturecatholic.com

 

[Lynn73]

Thanks for you explanation. I disagree with your doctrines, of course.

 

[lmnop9876]

I think you're still not understanding. Protestans believe grace comes through God alone....no sacrament necessary. God administers grace in His good timing, not when we decide to be baptized, not when we decide to take the eucharist, or anything else we decide to "do" in order to become recipients of God's grace. He holds all of grace, He determines when.

you're correct, grace comes from God alone. however, God uses "means" of grace [that term sound familiar. ?] these include His Word, the sacraments, and prayer "all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation." those coming to the Holy Supper with faith are made partakers of the Body and Blood of Christ our God by the operation of the All-Holy Spirit, and are built up in their Christian life and calling. baptism represents, seals, and applies to believers all the benefits of the new covenant of grace, all the benefits of the work of Christ, including remission of sins and spiritual regeneration. those coming to that sacrament with faith have their sins forgiven and washed away with the Blood of Christ by the Holy Spirit, and are visibly and publicly stamped as children of God. infants coming without faith are given the promise of remission of sins, as children of God's covenant, if they come to Him by faith. until such time as they can come in faith, they are holy on account of God's covenant promise to their parents.
this is what Reformed theology teaches, and has always taught. it is only since the advent of "evangelicalism" that Reformed Christians have tended to lose sight of their orthodox and catholic faith and heritage.

 

[lmnop9876]

So were the people who wrote The Belgic Confession of 1619 infallible?

so far as they agreed with the infallible words of God in sacred Scripture and with the orthodox and catholic faith of the Church of all ages, then yes, the Holy Spirit speaking through their words was infallible. the people themselves were not infallible, but the Spirit of God is.

 

[lmnop9876]

pjw, why would you look to an Orthodox cathechism for reformed theology?

The Belgic Confession is the oldest doctrinal standard within Christian Reformed Church. That is why I chose it in my OP. It was originally written in 1561 by Guido deBras, who was martyred in 1567 so that you and I can live out our faith outside of the RCC.

ummm...
the reason i chose to quote from an Eastern Orthodox Catechism is not that the entire catechism agrees with Reformed teaching, but that this section on Scripture and its role and function in the Church [and the books of the Bible] is in substantial agreement with Reformed theology. it shows that our view of Scripture and tradition is in accord with that of the orthodox Church worldwide, and is not merely an innovation.

18. Is there any sure repository of holy tradition? All true believers united by the holy tradition of the faith, collectively and successively, by the will of God, compose the Church; and she is the sure repository of holy tradition, or, as St. Paul expresses it, The Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 1 Tim. iii. 15.
22. Why, then, was holy Scripture given?
To this end, that divine revelation might be preserved more exactly and unchangeably. In holy Scripture we read the words of the Prophets and Apostles precisely as if we were living with them and listening to them, although the latest of the sacred books were written a thousand and some hundred years before our time.
23. Must we follow holy tradition, even when we possess holy Scripture?
We must follow that tradition which agrees with the divine revelation and with holy Scripture, as is taught us by holy Scripture itself. The Apostle Paul writes: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle. 2 Thess. ii. 15.

24. Why is tradition necessary even now?
As a guide to the right understanding of holy Scripture, for the right ministration of the sacraments, and the preservation of sacred rites and ceremonies in the purity of their original institution.

tradition in the Reformed Church includes creeds, confessions, catechisms, the writings of the Church Fathers, the writings of the Reformers, &c. all of which help us to understand Scripture aright.

 

[Trento]

I agree that (see my title) salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I also believe that God bestows his grace in various ways and throughout our lives- including water baptism, the Eucharist, Sacrament of Matrimony, confession, confirmation etc etc....God does not give us Grace just once when I say "I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and savior". Water Baptism is an act of Faith. it provides us with the "initial" saving grace. What we do with that grace thereafter is up to us. I don't expect you to understand, nor to change your mind. I am merely stating what Catholics believe and have believed for 2000 years, what the Church fathers believed and what the early christians believed. For support go to scripturecatholic.com

They can disbelieve our sacrements all they want but rest assured they have come from the Apostles. The clincer for me is coming upon a first Century Catacomb epigraph cut on the noble sarcophagus of the couple Flavius Julius Catervius and Septimia Severina. In it, apart from references to Baptism and Confirmation, there is added one to the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony which is couched in poetic terms full of shining hope in the resurrection.
------" The Lord Almighty who with equal merit has joined you in the sweet bonds of Holy Matrimony looks forever after your sepulchre, O Catervius. Severina is happy to be united with you forever. May you be raised together, with the grace of Christ, O you blessed ones, whom Probianus, the priest of the Lord washed with Baptism and anointed with sacred chrism." There are three sacrements referred to here and a reference to a Priest conferring them.
The Priests in the infant Church even while under the Roman sword were dispensing the sacrements.

 

[Lynn73]

Why assume that everything you read in the catacombs is automatically a doctrine of the early church of Christ? All it means is that someone believed those things. There were, no doubt, many sects besides Christianity, how do you know they didn't also use the catacombs and write on the wall. I wouldn't take writings on a wall as gospel truth of what the early church believed.

 

[ksen]

not of the Roman Catholic Church, as well
not of the Calvinist Church, as well
not of the Lutheran Church, as well
not of the Anglican Church, as well
not of the Baptist Church, and so on

No Church is perfect here on the earth

Are you sure, that as a Catholic, you can say your church is not perfect?