Propitiation

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, it does. And with the bible as well.

Thank you. I do understand your position and respect your adherence to it although I respectfully disagree.

 

[Hammster]

Does justification not involve being absolved of injustice, among others things?

Forgiveness happened at the cross, as I keep pointing out.

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:13-14

 

[Hammster]

"But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:15

And no, it wasn't me who said it. He said it- immediately after giving us the Lord's Prayer.

Sheep act like sheep. This isn’t new.

 

[fhansen]

Sheep act like sheep. This isn’t new.

Sheep sometimes stray-that's why He must warn them. Being unforgiven=not good. They must do their part IOW.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sheep act like sheep. This isn’t new.

Goats also act like goats. Nothing new to that, either.

 

[Hammster]

Sheep sometimes stray-that's why He must warn them. Being unforgiven=not good. They must do their part IOW.

But they stay sheep.

And he doesn’t just warn them. He goes after them.

 

[fhansen]

But they stay sheep.

And he doesn’t just warn them. He goes after them.

That doesn't mean He always catches them. Otherwise there'd be no need to warn. He forces none into the fold. Those who persevere, prove to be His. And He, alone, knows with perfect certainty just who they are.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But they stay sheep.

And he doesn’t just warn them. He goes after them.

You never see Jesus as the Good Goatherd.

 

[fhansen]

You never see Jesus as the Good Goatherd.

Nope, but His sheep still become His sheep-and remain His sheep-by virtue of two functions working together: grace and choice. The first is consistent while the second can vary.

 

[Hammster]

That doesn't mean He always catches them. Otherwise there'd be no need to warn. He forces none into the fold. Those who persevere, prove to be His. And He, alone, knows with perfect certainty just who they are.

It does mean that.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:27-29

If a shepherd loses a sheep that they are entrusted with, they are a poor shepherd. Jesus isn’t a poor shepherd. He loses none who are given to Him by His Father.

 

[fhansen]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Yes, whoever they are. Not all who believe themselves to be sheep will turn out that way.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, whoever they are. Not all who believe themselves to be sheep will turn out that way.

The “whoever they are” are the ones given by the Father. The rest, even the pretenders, are not His.

 

[fhansen]

The “whoever they are” are the ones given by the Father. The rest, even the pretenders, are not His.

Yes, we'll know for certain who they are in a few more years

 

[bbbbbbb]

Nope, but His sheep still become His sheep-and remain His sheep-by virtue of two functions working together: grace and choice. The first is consistent while the second can vary.

How does God's choice vary?

 

[fhansen]

How does God's choice vary?

God's choice is that our choice plays its part.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God's choice is that our choice plays its part.

That being the case, does God's grace also vary accordingly?

 

[fhansen]

That being the case, does God's grace also vary accordingly?

No, unless for the fact that it might presumably be tailored to our individual personalities, needs, backgrounds, etc., but all for the purpose of drawing and moving us towards Him. None have excuse for unbelief IOW whereas culpability can vary depending on individual circumstances. Either way we're to do the best we can with what we're given, with more demanded of those given more- Luke 12:48. The Parable of the Talents sheds light on this truth.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No, unless for the fact that it might presumably be tailored to our individual personalities, needs, backgrounds, etc., but all for the purpose of drawing and moving us towards Him. None have excuse for unbelief IOW whereas culpability can vary depending on individual circumstances. Either way we're to do the best we can with what we're given, with more demanded of those given more- Luke 12:48. The Parable of the Talents sheds light on this truth.

Then, why should we imagine that God's election is variable, but His grace in election is not?

 

[fhansen]

Then, why should we imagine that God's election is variable, but His grace in election is not?

We're the wildcard, not Him. His grace is sufficient for all.

Different amounts of talents were given to different servants with differing amounts of return expected-but some amount of effort at investing with some return was always expected. Failing to invest was not an option, with that wicked and lazy servant booted from the kingdom.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, we'll know for certain who they are in a few more years

That’s irrelevant whether or not we know. God knows who are His. That is what is relevant.