Propitiation

[fhansen]

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2

It’s is commonly understood that propitiation is the atoning sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath. That’s the definition I’m going with here. Looking at this passage, we can conclude one of two things. God's wrath was satisfied for some or for all. Those who think it’s for all take “whole world” prima facia and say God loved the whole world and bore the sins of every man. Those who say it’s only for some look at the context and see the “our sins” as John’s immediate audience, and “whole world” as indicating that it’s just not his audience, but others throughout the world.

My argument against the former is that if God’s wrath is satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, then He would be unjust for sending anyone to hell. It would be akin to someone paying off my house in full, yet the bank foreclosing on my house. That would not be just.

So it’s best to see “whole world” as referencing people throughout the world, as opposed to every single person in the world.

It works something like this. Someone pays all your traffic debts so the burden of your debt is removed and your license to drive is restored. But you go out and continue to speed, run red lights, drive recklessly, etc. You will be incurring new debt while mocking the authority of the governing agency. You’ve failed to appreciate what’s been done for you. Such things happen in everyday life as well. We can forgive another their offenses against us, desiring a positive change in them and yet there's no guarantee as their will remains involved.

Similarly, future and continued sin will exclude you from the kingdom of God. We cannot enter it unless for grace, unless for Him and His forgiveness, and yet we can still refuse to enter, or refuse to remain.

 

[Hammster]

It works something like this. Someone pays all your traffic debts so the burden of your debt is removed and your license to drive is restored. But you go out and continue to speed, run red lights, drive recklessly, etc. You will be incurring new debt while mocking the authority of the governing agency. You’ve failed to appreciate what’s been done for you. Such things happen in everyday life as well. We can forgive another their offenses against us, desiring a positive change in them and yet there's no guarantee as their will remains involved in this scenario.

Similarly, future and continued sin will exclude you from the kingdom of God. We cannot enter it unless for grace, unless for Him and His forgiveness, and yet we can still refuse to enter, or refuse to remain.

Christ was crucified once.

 

[fhansen]

Christ was crucified once.

No doubt. And yet we might not care enough for that to matter...for ourselves.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame. Heb 6

 

[Hammster]

No doubt. And yet we might not care enough for that to matter...for ourselves.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame. Heb 6

Those folks aren’t born again.

For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
— Hebrews 6:7-8

See also the parable of the sower and soils.

But, can we see anywhere that talks about what happens on the cross?

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:13-14

 

[fhansen]

Those folks aren’t born again.

They were as reborn as anyone else. And we can die again. And no one knows for certain just what kind of soil they will turn out to be in the end anyway. The bible was written and the church established so that we can know the truth-and decide. Otherwise there's no real reason for either. And that decision is one that's made day by day, born out by how we live our lives. And it's meant to grow stronger in conviction and understanding.

 

[Hammster]

They were as reborn as anyone else. And we can die again. And no one knows for certain just what kind of soil they will turn out to be in the end anyway. The bible was written and the church established so that we can know the truth-and decide. Otherwise there's no real reason for either. And that decision is one that's made day by day, born out by how we live our lives. And it's meant to grow stronger in conviction and understanding.

Except that scripture doesn’t support that. Getting back to the OP, if Christ is the propitiation for everyone, then even future sins in our lives are atoned for since even our past sins were future when they were nailed to the cross.

 

[fhansen]

Except that scripture doesn’t support that. Getting back to the OP, if Christ is the propitiation for everyone, then even future sins in our lives are atoned for since even our past sins were future when they were nailed to the cross.

One doesn't become justified until they turn to God in faith, and that happens in real time, at a point in our lives. There is absolutely no reason to presume that future sins, after that point, are forgiven cart blanc without regard to how we live our lives. Justification consists of our turning away from sin and the world and turning to God with Him now giving us the Spirit by which to live as children of His should. Anything less would be a trampling upon is forgiveness and mercy and love.

 

[Hammster]

One doesn't become justified until they turn to God in faith, and that happens in real time, at a point in our lives. There is absolutely no reason to presume that future sins, after that point, are forgiven cart blanc without regard to how we live our lives. Justification consists of our turning away from sin and the world and turning to God with Him now giving us the Spirit by which to live as children of His should. Anything less would be a trampling upon is forgiveness and mercy and love.

Justification happens at the point of faith. But that’s not what I was talking about. Colossians is clear that sins were atoned for at the cross.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It works something like this. Someone pays all your traffic debts so the burden of your debt is removed and your license to drive is restored. But you go out and continue to speed, run red lights, drive recklessly, etc. You will be incurring new debt while mocking the authority of the governing agency. You’ve failed to appreciate what’s been done for you. Such things happen in everyday life as well. We can forgive another their offenses against us, desiring a positive change in them and yet there's no guarantee as their will remains involved.

Similarly, future and continued sin will exclude you from the kingdom of God. We cannot enter it unless for grace, unless for Him and His forgiveness, and yet we can still refuse to enter, or refuse to remain.

Yep. God is the eternal cop, keeping records of sins which He will hold against humanity forever and ever. Psalm 103 is a mockery of God's justice and should be stricken from the Bible.

 

[fhansen]

Yep. God is the eternal cop, keeping records of sins which He will hold against humanity forever and ever. Psalm 103 is a mockery of God's justice and should be stricken from the Bible.

So you don't believe in eternal punishment? And if justice suddenly no longer matters to God then why did He ever demand obedience? Faith/justification consists of more than forgiveness for unrighteousness, but also of the gift of righteousness by which we now overcome sin.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So you don't believe in eternal punishment? And if justice suddenly no longer matters to God then why did He ever demand obedience? Faith/justification consists of more than forgiveness for unrighteousness, but also of the gift of righteousness by which we now overcome sin.

So, you don't believe in eternal forgiveness? Why did Jesus Christ bother Himself to die on the cross if people's obedience is sufficient for their salvation?

 

[fhansen]

So, you don't believe in eternal forgiveness? Why did Jesus Christ bother Himself to die on the cross if people's obedience is sufficient for their salvation?

Their obedience only becomes possible by being freely justified. Again, justification consists of more than a declaration or imputation of righteousness, but also of the gift of authentic righteousness. no longer slaves to sin. Jesus didn't do all he did just so we can remain in our sins-and we were never created to be sinners to begin with! The main purpose of the new covenant is reconciliation between man and God; man was made for communion with God and is lost, dead-and inevitably sinful- apart from Him. And that relationship, where God becomes our God again, is established or realized by faith.

Now there is only condemnation in the bible for sinners, but no condemnation for those who are in Christ, no longer slaves to sin. God truly justifies the ungodly, as long as we remain in Him, born out and demonstrated by fruit, in how we live our lives.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-21

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 3-4, 12-14

 

[fhansen]

Justification happens at the point of faith. But that’s not what I was talking about. Colossians is clear that sins were atoned for at the cross.

Colossians is consistent with the gospel as found anywhere in the NT. Nothing there about carte blanc atonement for future sins. The atonement is all about a major reset, getting us reconciled to and right with God so that we may now please Him, without blemish. And we must continuously be vigilant and make effort to do so, cooperating with grace, His work in us. This doesn’t mean that we can’t have a change of heart with repentance all over again if we stray away and into grave sin, but meanwhile we will have alienated ourselves from Him again.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. Col 1:22-23

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Col 2:13-15

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Col 3:5-10

 

[Hammster]

Nothing there about carte blanc atonement for future sins

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:13-14

At the time of the cross, your sins and my sins were future.

 

[fhansen]

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:13-14

At the time of the cross, your sins and my sins were future.

Yep, past sins are not held against us. We're now new creations, with a new life, no longer slaves to sin which leads to death!

 

[Hammster]

Yep, past sins are not held against us. We're now new creations, with a new life, no longer slaves to sin which leads to death!

You must not be reading those verses. It clearly says forgiving all our trespasses. I’m not sure how you are reading that to be some to a point, and others to be added later.

 

[fhansen]

You must not be reading those verses. It clearly says forgiving all our trespasses. I’m not sure how you are reading that to be some to a point, and others to be added later.

And I have no idea where you get your timeline. But I do know that, according to the bible, one may not persist in serious, grave sin and still be a child of God's.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Their obedience only becomes possible by being freely justified. Again, justification consists of more than a declaration or imputation of righteousness, but also of the gift of authentic righteousness. no longer slaves to sin. Jesus didn't do all he did just so we can remain in our sins-and we were never created to be sinners to begin with! The main purpose of the new covenant is reconciliation between man and God; man was made for communion with God and is lost, dead-and inevitably sinful- apart from Him. And that relationship, where God becomes our God again, is established or realized by faith.

Now there is only condemnation in the bible for sinners, but no condemnation for those who are in Christ, no longer slaves to sin. God truly justifies the ungodly, as long as we remain in Him, born out and demonstrated by fruit, in how we live our lives.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-21

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 3-4, 12-14

So, do you believe that God cannot forgive future sins of people without their assistance?

 

[fhansen]

So, do you believe that God cannot forgive future sins of people without their assistance?

God can do whatever He wants. He could've forgiven Adam to begin with, or anyone regardless of whether or not they believe. And He offers that forgiveness,, in fact, but many simply do not care. Either way that's what we're talking about: what does God, in His infinite wisdom, want, for and from us?

 

[bbbbbbb]

God can do whatever He wants. He could've forgiven Adam to begin with, or anyone regardless of whether or not they believe. And He offers that forgiveness,, in fact, but many simply do not care. Either way that's what we're talking about: what does God, in His infinite wisdom, want, for and from us?

I am glad that we agree that God can forgive past, present, as well as future sins. The question now is, why is God unwilling to forgive some sins of Christians?