Propitiation

[bling]

Hi @bling,

Paul's epistle to the Romans goes from subject to subject in its synopsis, and therefore the fact that Romans 6 does not speak of propitiation in no way means that propitiation is not a subject in Paul's mind.

In Romans 3:25 Paul does indeed speak of propitiation, and the apostle John speaks of it in 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10. I suggest doing a study on what the word means. Get yourself a Bible Dictionary and understand the word by its definition therein.

Because the way I define it is in that it is an appeasement of God's wrath against and justice towards sin. It happens so that God can be both just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. Romans 3:26. I take this to mean that God's justice is satisfied in the Cross so that He can show mercy and still be perfectly just.

You cannot just go to a Bible dictionary to define how a particular word is used in a particular bible verse. Other translations have “propitiation” (ἱλαστήριον hilastērion is the Greek) translated it: expiation and atonement sacrifices. No one knows for sure what the meaning of ἱλαστήριον hilastērion really should be in a particular verse.

Propitiation makes the problem God’s problem (He cannot associate with sinful man) and must there for punish someone (it does not have to be the sinner himself which is up surd).

We like to talk about punishing the intangible “sin” or God’s wrath toward sin, which cannot be done since it is the sinner who is upsetting God and needs either punishment or disciplining.

God is upset with man sinning and will do almost anything to resolve the situation, so in that respect the resolving of the situation will reduce God’s wrath over sinful man down and is a kind of propitiation, but it is not God who needs to change in any way (have some personal satisfaction or satisfy some cosmic justice requirement), but man who changes through the atoning sacrifice which improves the relationship.

When your child rebelliously disobeys you and you get angry over it are you looking to be “satisfied” with punishing vengeance or justice?

Do you need something done to forgive your child?

Loving discipline correctly accepted is a great learning experience that will create an even better relationship between parent and child.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @bling,

again, sorry for the late response.

A Bible Dictionary is indeed useful when it comes to understanding words in the Bible that have theological significance.

And propitiation is a reality in the scripture.

God doesn't change in that His justice is satisfied through propitiation. He does not need to change, that is true, and He does not change. What happens is that He provides Himself as a sacrifice to pay the penalty for our sins; which means that His justice becomes satisfied in that Christ died for us and in our place.

If my child rebelliously disobeyed me then I would spank him; or, if he asked for mercy, I would strike my own hand in front of him with the ruler as an object lesson and to let him know that I am still just even though I have let him off the hook.

What do you think that will do? It will affect his conscience so that He will understand that when He does wrong he must either bear the penalty or I will: either way the discipline will be meted out, and if I were my own child I believe that I would not want to cause more pain to my father so I would either not commit the sin again or I would ask for justice for myself intead of mercy for myself and justice towards my father.

 

[bling]

Hi @bling,

again, sorry for the late response.

A Bible Dictionary is indeed useful when it comes to understanding words in the Bible that have theological significance.

The problem is the original word is not “propitiation” but is the Greek word “ἱλαστήριον hilastērion” and only some translaters translate “ἱλαστήριον hilastērion” as propitiation while others translate it atonement sacrifice or expiation, so what does it really mean? The context is little help and the Greek word “ἱλαστήριον” is only used a few times in scripture and outside of scripture.

And propitiation is a reality in the scripture.

Not all translations translate “ἱλαστήριον”: propitiation, like the NIV nor the RSV nor the NRSV does not use it.

God doesn't change in that His justice is satisfied through propitiation. He does not need to change, that is true, and He does not change. What happens is that He provides Himself as a sacrifice to pay the penalty for our sins; which means that His justice becomes satisfied in that Christ died for us and in our place.

If my child rebelliously disobeyed me then I would spank him; or, if he asked for mercy, I would strike my own hand in front of him with the ruler as an object lesson and to let him know that I am still just even though I have let him off the hook.

What do you think that will do? It will affect his conscience so that He will understand that when He does wrong he must either bear the penalty or I will: either way the discipline will be meted out, and if I were my own child I believe that I would not want to cause more pain to my father so I would either not commit the sin again or I would ask for justice for myself intead of mercy for myself and justice towards my father.

I like your analogy to some degree, but lets us think about it more: Does the Loving son out of empathy for the father experience pain when the father “unfairly/unjustly” hurts himself to help teach the son? If the son is so in love with the father would he not prefer to be struck himself instead of the father, so in that way is the son not experience even greater disciplining for his transgression? Is this not a form of lovingly disciplining for the son? Is this a teachable moment? The father is showing lots of Love and disciplining is a deterrent, just as in your example.

Jesus going to the cross to help you experience disciplining through empathy for Him, should help you?

 

[justbyfaith]

"Propitiation" is not an invalid translation of the word "hilasterion". It may not be a transliteration of the Greek word; but I most certainly believe that the translators of the KJV prayerfully sought out the meaning of the word hilasterion and found the closest acceptable word to translate it into English.

I don't know about the RSV or the NRSV; but I would point out to you that the NIV and the NASB render Lucifer (KJV) as "morning star" in Isaiah 14:12 and thus, when you compare Isaiah 14:12 to Revelation 22:16, you could conclude that Jesus is satan, which is unmistakably a damnable heresy that denies the Lord that bought the translators of the NIV and the NASB and was predicted in 2 Peter 2:1-3. Therefore if such a damnable heresy can be found in the NIV and the NASB, I do not trust it or any of the other New Age translations that were developed in order to undermine the authority of the Authorized Version. But I trust the KJV unequivocably because it has been the source text for many revivals in history.