Futurist Only Prophecy to be fulfilled.

[dfw69]

Then you see them again in heaven before the throne and the lamb ..Revelation 7:9-17

 

[keras]

It's not made up Keras you first see the souls of them under the alter in heaven ...They are all martyrs asking for vengeance upon those in the earth Revelation 6:9-11 ..they all were slain for the word of God and the testimony they had ... They are told to rest till their fellowservants will be slain for the same reason as they were

I am not denying that the souls of the martyrs are kept in heaven. Jesus will bring them back to earth when He comes.
But in #18, you say there will be a rapture of the church to live in New Jerusalem, in heaven. THAT I refute.
Note that the martyred saints are again mentioned in Revelation 19:1 & 5-8 describing the Wedding feast that will happen at Jesus' Return. Only then do they come alive again. Revelation 20:4

The people referred to in Revelation 7:9 & 14, are not the same as the dead saints. They are those who have passed thru the great ordeal; the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. They are alive humans and they are in the holy Land, in earthly Jerusalem as we see in Revelation 14:1.
You absolutely made it up about them being in heaven.

 

[dfw69]

I am not denying that the souls of the martyrs are kept in heaven. Jesus will bring them back to earth when He comes.
But in #18, you say there will be a rapture of the church to live in New Jerusalem, in heaven. THAT I refute.
Note that the martyred saints are again mentioned in Revelation 19:1 & 5-8 describing the Wedding feast that will happen at Jesus' Return. Only then do they come alive again. Revelation 20:4

I know it's hard to believe that a rapture of the body of Christ will take place because so many believe the church is Babylon the great .. But Jesus will still come for his body nonetheless as promised

The people referred to in Revelation 7:9 & 14, are not the same as the dead saints. They are those who have passed thru the great ordeal; the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. They are alive humans and they are in the holy Land, in earthly Jerusalem as we see in Revelation 14:1.
You absolutely made it up about them being in heaven.

Well let's look into it and see..


After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from "every" nation, tribe, people and language,

Note:Every meaning the whole world all people from all nations who were persecuted


"standing" before the throne and before the Lamb.

Note : Where are they? Standing in Jerusalem ? No Keras ..they are before the throne and the lamb .. The same throne room described in Revelation 4 in heaven


They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

Note one of the 24 elders in heaven ask John where did these come from who are now before the throne room


14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Note: They came out of great tribulation ... Martyred saints of all nations


15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;

Note it's clear here where these are set ... Before the throne serving him day and night in his temple in heaven


and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.

Note It's clear they are in his presence in heaven

16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[b]

Note there destination is to live in new Jerusalem Revelation 22:1

‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]”

Note they have suffered tribulation and need to be emotionally healed

 

[keras]

I know it's hard to believe that a rapture of the body of Christ will take place because so many believe the church is Babylon the great .. But Jesus will still come for his body nonetheless as promised

Where exactly does the Bible say the Lord will take His live people to heaven?
What is NOT hard to believe is Jesus' Words: John 3:13, John 17:15

Note : Where are they? Standing in Jerusalem ? No Keras ..they are before the throne and the lamb .. The same throne room described in Revelation 4 in heaven

Yes Gods Throne is where God is. Note that it was by the river Kebar in Ezekiel 1:1-28 , Isaiah 6:1-3 saw it and the whole earth was full of His glory. Then it will be seen again in Jerusalem, as the whole chapter of Revelation 7:1-17 describes an earthly scene and another instance of God's Throne on earth, where it will eventually be permanently situated after the Millennium.

May I suggest, DFW, that you spend more time studying the Word, before you post any more theories and fanciful notions.

 

[dfw69]

Where exactly does the Bible say the Lord will take His live people to heaven?
What is NOT hard to believe is Jesus' Words: John 3:13, John 17:15

Don't forget these scriptures John 14:2-6 John 17:24



If Jesus was able to ascend to heaven being flesh how is it not possible we cannot enter when he made a way to the father ? Do you not believe the good news ?

Yes Gods Throne is where God is. Note that it was by the river Kebar in Ezekiel 1:1-28 , Isaiah 6:1-3 saw it and the whole earth was full of His glory. Then it will be seen again in Jerusalem, as the whole chapter of Revelation 7:1-17 describes an earthly scene and another instance of God's Throne on earth, where it will eventually be permanently situated after the Millennium.

In Ezekiel it clearly states the heaven opened and he saw visions of God ..so did Isaiah ..but where in revelation 7 does it suggest the setting is earth?

May I suggest, DFW, that you spend more time studying the Word, before you post any more theories and fanciful notions.

Lol I learn more by listening to your point of view ..Do you not like to sharing your views with others ?

No need to be rude Keras ..remember Romans 10:14-15

 

[keras]

Don't forget these scriptures John 14:2-6 John 17:24

Neither of those verses mention heaven or say anything about people leaving earth.

If Jesus was able to ascend to heaven being flesh how is it not possible we cannot enter when he made a way to the father ? Do you not believe the good news ?

Because Jesus said: No one goes to heaven except the One who came from there. Clear enough?
The good news is if we accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, we can attain eternal life.
Our heritage as true believers is to live in the holy Land, being as God always intended: a light to the nations and His witnesses on earth. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10

In Ezekiel it clearly states the heaven opened and he saw visions of God ..so did Isaiah ..but where in revelation 7 does it suggest the setting is earth?

Yes Ezekiel, Isaiah saw God's Throne, but they themselves never left the earth.
Revelation 7:1-3 sets the scene - on earth. There is nowhere later in that chapter that shifts the venue.

Lol I learn more by listening to your point of view ..Do you not like to sharing your views with others ?

Very good, that is my aim and object of posting here. But because you and most others here already have a fixed idea of the end time events, it can be quite frustrating to point out the truth of scripture and have it ignored or abrogated. John 3:13 is an example that totally refutes the rapture to heaven theory. Why keep gripping onto it, when the great promises of God to His people are going to live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, where we will fulfil our destiny?

 

[Douggg]

Because Jesus said: No one goes to heaven except the One who came from there. Clear enough?

Keras, you are misrepresenting what that verse said. It is talking about the past, prior to salvation in Christ becoming available to man to receive.

 

[dfw69]

Neither of those verses mention heaven or say anything about people leaving earth.

Jesus says he is leaving to his father in heaven where his house has many mantions and he goes to prepare a place for us then he prays that the disciples are kept from evil and not taken out of this world because they are sent to witness in his behalf... But later prays that they be where he is to behold his glory ... The Savior of new Jerusalem ..

Because Jesus said: No one goes to heaven except the One who came from there. Clear enough?

that is true ... Then he made a way to the father after ascending back to heaven

The good news is if we accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, we can attain eternal life.
Our heritage as true believers is to live in the holy Land, being as God always intended: a light to the nations and His witnesses on earth. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10

A false messianic age comes first Keras then judgement .. You should not want to live in Jerusalem yet ... Y'shia said when they say here is messiah do not go after them ... You will have fallen away from the faith which is to continue to wait on the lords return

Seek the things above to live in new Jerusalem it is the fathers good pleasure to give you the kingdom of heaven

Yes Ezekiel, Isaiah saw God's Throne, but they themselves never left the earth.
Revelation 7:1-3 sets the scene - on earth. There is nowhere later in that chapter that shifts the venue.

I disagree because it's clear the tribulation saints are seen before the throne and the lamb the elders the Angels and 4 living beast

But ok agree to disagree

Very good, that is my aim and object of posting here. But because you and most others here already have a fixed idea of the end time events, it can be quite frustrating to point out the truth of scripture and have it ignored or abrogated. John 3:13 is an example that totally refutes the rapture to heaven theory. Why keep gripping onto it, when the great promises of God to His people are going to live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, where we will fulfil our destiny?

But look carefully Keras John 3 :13 does not refute the rapture .. It only explains that by only one man who came from heaven is going to make a way to heaven by ascending back to heaven to make a way to the father in heaven ...understand?

Yes Jesus will eventually return with the saints and angels to establish his kingdom but before this a false messianic age ... So be warned

 

[keras]

But look carefully Keras John 3 :13 does not refute the rapture .. It only explains that by only one man who came from heaven is going to make a way to heaven by ascending back to heaven to make a way to the father in heaven ...understand?

Your belief isn't supported by scripture. Many prophesies tell us, that God's original plan to have a people in all of the holy Land, will come to fruition. There is simply no point in taking His people to heaven and this would mean God's plan and promise's to the Patriarchs, have failed. Ezekiel 20:34-38

 

[Psalm3704]

Your belief isn't supported by scripture. Many prophesies tell us, that God's original plan to have a people in all of the holy Land, will come to fruition. There is simply no point in taking His people to heaven and this would mean God's plan and promise's to the Patriarchs, have failed. Ezekiel 20:34-38

Keras, I agree with you that someday all of God's people - church and Israel - will be gathered at the holy land, but that won't happen till after the tribulation, not before. Psalms 53:6, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27. God's purpose through Christ is to deliver His people out of harm's way through the rapture, not lead us into tribulation at a time when all of Israel will be destroy.

Amos 9:8-9 GNT
8 I, the Sovereign Lord, am watching this sinful kingdom of Israel, and I will destroy it from the face of the earth. But I will not destroy all the descendants of Jacob. 9 “I will give the command and shake the people of Israel like grain in a sieve. I will shake them among the nations to remove all who are worthless.​

.

 

[Biblewriter]

Thanks Biblewriter. Those prophesies await fulfilment.
That a righteous people will soon inhabit all of the holy Land, is well prophesied in the Bible. Those people are referred to as My people: Israel, or My chosen ones, who as we know from the NT as all true believers in God and Jesus.
I note from other threads that you promote a rapture removal to heaven. This theory is refuted by all the prophesies saying how all true Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language will go to live in all of the holy Land, where they will prepare themselves and the world for the Return of Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10

Actually what the end time prophecies reveal is an entirely different scenario. They show the righteous driven out of the land 3-1/2 years before Messiah comes, and land totally overrun and Jerusalem under siege when Messiah arrives.

 

[keras]

Actually what the end time prophecies reveal is an entirely different scenario. They show the righteous driven out of the land 3-1/2 years before Messiah comes, and land totally overrun and Jerusalem under siege when Messiah arrives.

Yes the 'woman', that is: righteous Israel will be taken out of the holy Land to a place of safety on earth during the 1260 day G.T. Revelation 12:6 This is reiterated in Zechariah 14:2
But note that half of the population will remain to face the G.T. The rest of her offspring....
Daniel 11:32 tells us who each half will be: those who violate the Covenant and those who remain faithful to God.
So they are all Christians, all those gathered out of the nations after the Land is cleared and cleansed. Ezekiel 34:11-31 But half will agree to the 'treaty of death' with the Anti-Christ, Daniel 7:27, they are the 'many'. Isaiah 28:15 Sadly, just as ancient Israel did, some will backslide into apostasy.
The whole program of the end times, is to test people; many will fail, pray for strength the pass the trials and testing and to be found worthy to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Luke 21:36

 

[keras]

God's purpose through Christ is to deliver His people out of harm's way through the rapture, not lead us into tribulation at a time when all of Israel will be destroy.

Please explain why God has allowed His believers to be killed since Stephen was stoned to death, fed to the lions, burned at the stake, shot by terrorists, ad nauseum... and now, suddenly, Christians are to be taken away before trouble comes?

You miss two important points:
God does not change: Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8 and there is only one people of God. John 17:22-23, Ephesians 4:4-6

 

[Luke17:37]

I am not denying that the souls of the martyrs are kept in heaven. Jesus will bring them back to earth when He comes.
But in #18, you say there will be a rapture of the church to live in New Jerusalem, in heaven. THAT I refute.
Note that the martyred saints are again mentioned in Revelation 19:1 & 5-8 describing the Wedding feast that will happen at Jesus' Return. Only then do they come alive again. Revelation 20:4

The people referred to in Revelation 7:9 & 14, are not the same as the dead saints. They are those who have passed thru the great ordeal; the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. They are alive humans and they are in the holy Land, in earthly Jerusalem as we see in Revelation 14:1.
You absolutely made it up about them being in heaven.

I disagree with you. I believe the plain reading of Scripture is that this multitude (Revelation 7:9-17) who came out of the Tribulation who are clothed in white robes are Tribulation martyrs (see Revelation 6:9-11). God wipes away their tears.

Revelation 14:1-5 is about the 144,000 Jewish believers in Jesus who are sealed. They are first introduced in Revelation 7:1-8. These are kept alive, in contrast to the martyrs.

 

[keras]

I disagree with you. I believe the plain reading of Scripture is that this multitude (Revelation 7:9-17) who came out of the Tribulation who are clothed in white robes are Tribulation martyrs (see Revelation 6:9-11). God wipes away their tears.

Revelation 7:1-3 sets the scene; on earth. John sees the 144,000 selected by Jesus, standing on Mt Zion. Revelation 14:1
There is no mention of any change of location, as John sees a vast multitude, as the throne of God is revealed to them. 2 Thessalonians 1:10 Not to all the world, as yet.
That multitude are those who have survived great tribulation, namely the just happened Sixth seal worldwide disaster. It does not say they are given white robes, only that they have washed their clothes in the blood of the Lamb. An allegory for their true belief in Jesus and the keeping of His Commandments. They go to live in all of the holy Land, they build a new Temple and it is them, who at last, fulfil God's plan to have a people there, who are His witnesses and who display a light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10
The 144,000 are missionaries who proclaim the good news of the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19, As in Luke 10:1-10

 

[Luke17:37]

Revelation 7:1-3 sets the scene; on earth. John sees the 144,000 selected by Jesus, standing on Mt Zion. Revelation 14:1
There is no mention of any change of location, as John sees a vast multitude, as the throne of God is revealed to them. 2 Thessalonians 1:10 Not to all the world, as yet.
That multitude are those who have survived great tribulation, namely the just happened Sixth seal worldwide disaster. It does not say they are given white robes, only that they have washed their clothes in the blood of the Lamb. An allegory for their true belief in Jesus and the keeping of His Commandments. They go to live in all of the holy Land, they build a new Temple and it is them, who at last, fulfil God's plan to have a people there, who are His witnesses and who display a light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10
The 144,000 are missionaries who proclaim the good news of the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19, As in Luke 10:1-10

Revelation 7:1-8 is about a numbered set of people - 144,000 - 12,000 from each tribe of Israel (Joseph has a double portion through "Manasseh" and "Joseph" but Dan isn't mentioned.) These are alive on earth.

Revelation 7:9-17 is about a uncountable multitude from every nation and tribe. (Of course God can count it, but He didn't give us the number and He implies it is very large.) These are in heaven (before the throne) being comforted from the misery they endured before they came out of the Tribulation (verses 16-17) (by being killed... see Revelation 6:9-11 for how they got their white robes.)

Can you see now that Revelation 7:1-8 and 7:9-17 aren't about the same people? They may together represent all of the Christians who are alive when the Tribulation starts (not counting Jewish people who turn to Jesus closely before He comes).

 

[keras]

Can you see now that Revelation 7:1-8 and 7:9-17 aren't about the same people? They may together represent all of the Christians who are alive when the Tribulation starts (not counting Jewish people who turn to Jesus closely before He comes).

You don't see the many prophesies saying how the Lord will gather His people and settle them into all of the holy Land.
The 'tribulation' referred to in Revelation 7:14 is not the Great Tribulation, it is the worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal, that will clear and cleanse the entire Middle East region. This enables His people to go there. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 31:1-40
From them, the 144k are selected, they go out to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19
The rest live in peace and prosperity in Beulah. Isaiah 62:15, Isaiah 35:1-10
There is no change from the earthly location in Rev 7. Going to heaven isn't part of God's plan for His people. We have work to do here, a 'rapture' is false teaching.

 

[Luke17:37]

You don't see the many prophesies saying how the Lord will gather His people and settle them into all of the holy Land.
The 'tribulation' referred to in Revelation 7:14 is not the Great Tribulation, it is the worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal, that will clear and cleanse the entire Middle East region. This enables His people to go there. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 31:1-40
From them, the 144k are selected, they go out to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19
The rest live in peace and prosperity in Beulah. Isaiah 62:15, Isaiah 35:1-10
There is no change from the earthly location in Rev 7. Going to heaven isn't part of God's plan for His people. We have work to do here, a 'rapture' is false teaching.

You didn't respond to my questions, which I think are very clear. 144,000 does not equal "a multitude no one can count." The twelve tribes of Israel does not equal every nation, tribe. Earth and heaven are not the same, either. The souls of the killed are in heaven, pre-resurrection (see Revelation 6:9-11). They don't get their bodies yet until the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6).

I know the pre-Tribulation rapture and mid-Tribulation and pre-wrath rapture are false teachings unsupported by Scripture. I am not advocating these.

I believe Jesus does the gathering and brings the peace to earth when He returns, not before, although I do believe He will protect these 144,000 believers in the wilderness somewhere (for the duration of the beast's reign, from the time they flee) until Jesus returns.

Check out Isaiah 27:12-13, when the Lord threshes His land (according to the promised borders, Genesis 15) and gathers the living Jews and brings them to worship Him in Jerusalem.

You and I are consistent as far as a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering conviction, but it seems like we vary widely after that.

 

[stephen583]

I think all the speculation about what this verse means versus what that verse means , is pretty much a waste of time and energy. When you're sitting there watching the in flight movie, and suddenly the aircraft dives down through 17,000 feet in a matter of seconds, and the oxygen masks fall from the ceiling, and you're being pushed back into your seat by 5 g's of force and everybody is screaming "We're Gonna DIE" !!! You're probably gonna know what's going on at that point.

As for the timing, I think it's pretty safe to say you're going to arrive at the crash site long before the fire trucks and ambulances arrive.

 

[keras]

You didn't respond to my questions, which I think are very clear. 144,000 does not equal "a multitude no one can count." The twelve tribes of Israel does not equal every nation, tribe

The 144K are selected from the 'vast multitude'. The multitude too big to count are all the true Christian people, who are gathered out of the nations soon after the Sixth Seal event. They are the Israel of God and are therefore divided into 12 'tribes' according to their individual characteristics.

Earth and heaven are not the same, either.

The earth and heaven remain forever. The surface of the earth will be renewed after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1 and earth becomes heaven when God dwells there. Revelation 21:3

I believe Jesus does the gathering and brings the peace to earth when He returns, not before, although I do believe He will protect these 144,000 believers in the wilderness somewhere (for the duration of the beast's reign, from the time they flee) until Jesus returns.

Revelation and other prophesies are clear: the Lord's people are gathered and go to live in all of the holy Land before the Return and the Mill reign. It is them who say: Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord.
The 144k are commissioned to proclaim the good news of the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

Check out Isaiah 27:12-13, when the Lord threshes His land (according to the promised borders, Genesis 15) and gathers the living Jews and brings them to worship Him in Jerusalem.

Why do you say 'Jews'? It says 'children of Israel' and who are true Israelites? Christian people: Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:26-9

I think all the speculation about what this verse means versus what that verse means , is pretty much a waste of time and energy

God has given us a lot of information about what He plans to happen. The prophesies about Jesus' first advent came true and we can expect those about the last days to be fulfilled literally.
Paul said in 1 Thess 5:4, that we who read the Bible should not be in the dark about our future. Those who are and worse, those who have been deceived by false teachings, may be so surprised and shocked by forthcoming events, they renounce their faith. Bad thinking!