Proof that Gay Relationships are Wrong

[Kristos]

when I was young, I thought as a child...

 

[ikonographics]

The whole purpose of life is to be united to Christ and that doesn't mean having warm fuzzy feelings about Christ. We are united to Christ when we receive Holy Communion. Anything that prevents us from recieving Holy Communion is a sin, because it prevents us from being united with Christ. There are canons that state that is someone wilfully abstains from Communion for three weeks he cuts himself off from the Church. The fact that you know that homosexual behaviour will prevent you from receiving Communion means that you know it is a sin. So what it the purpose of this thread?

 

[Greg the byzantine]

We pray for Justin, that the all the saints might intercede on his behalf, and that the Lord might show him his beautiful and glorious mercy.

 

[Philothei]

When one is married, the two become one and their journey becomes one of Syntheosis.

where in the Fathers did you find this term Commando?

 

[Michael G]

We pray for Justin, that the all the saints might intercede on his behalf, and that the Lord might show him his beautiful and glorious mercy.

Ask Sts. Cyprian and Justina to pray for Justin. If you wonder why, read their lives. I was amazed when I read their lives shortly before writing that icon for him. Justin may have chosen those 2 as his patron saints, but I firmly believe they led him to that decision.

 

[AureateDawn]

Barky, I post here because I like TAW, because I am Orthodox for the time being, and because, even if I don't stay Orthodox, it played a huge role in my journey to find God.

ikonographics, I am not acknowledging that it is a sin when I refrain from Communion. I am just doing it out of respect for what the Church teaches and how highly the Church holds communion.

Michael, yes, they are fantastic saints! I absolutely love them!

 

[127.0.0.1]

because I am Orthodox for the time being

Let's hope you stay Orthodox. You won't find the the fullness of the Truth anywhere else!

Heck look at me! Have I left the faith? No. Have I any intention of leaving it? A big resounding, no.

You are much better off talking with that abbot you mentioned before (is he Orthodox?), or better yet you're better off having a conversation with your SF than you are, learning about the faith from us.

 

[ArmyMatt]

because I am Orthodox for the time being, and because, even if I don't stay Orthodox

it sounds like you are considering leaving the Church, may I ask why?

 

[jckstraw72]

Canons of St. Basil the Great, included in the Rudder:
7. Sodomists and bestialists and murderers and sorcerers and adulterers and idolaters deserve the same condemnation, so that whatever rule you have as regarding the others observe it also in regard to these persons. But as for those who have been for thirty years penitent for an act of impurity which they committed unwittingly, there is no ground for our doubting that we ought to admit them. Both the fact of their ignorance renders them worthy of pardon, and so do also the voluntary character of their confession, and the fact that they have been exhibiting good intentions for such a long time, for they have surrendered themselves to Satan for nearly a whole human generation, in order to be educated not to indulge in shameful acts. So bid them to be admitted without fail, especially if they have shed tears that move you to compassion, and are exhibiting a life that deserves sympathy.

Interpretation.​

The present Canon condemns to the same chastisement and sentence both those who are guilty of the crime of sodomy and those who are guilty of the crime of bestiality (concerning whom see c. XVI of Ancyra), and murderers (see Ap. c. LXVI), and sorcerers (see c. LXI of the 6th), and adulterers (see Ap. c. XLVIII, and c. LXXXVII of the 6th), and idolaters, by which terms are meant, according to Balsamon and Zonaras, magicians, because of their invoking the demons, or, according to others, those who have on some occasion or under some circumstance denied Christ and have sacrificed to idols (and see c. XI of the 1st). All these persons are condemned to the same chastisement, not according to the years of sentence, because some of them are sentenced to more years and others to fewer, as is to be seen in their particular places and Canons; but in respect that all of them are subjected to sentences of many years, according to Zonaras, and in respect that all of them used to be assigned to the four stations of penitence, according to Balsamon. All those, on the other hand, who have been penitent for thirty years on account of the carnal impurity they committed unwittingly (possibly by indulging in sexual intercourse with some female relative without being aware that she was a relative, or something else of the kind), they ought undoubtedly to be admitted to the communion of the Mysteries, because of the tears and the life deserving of mercy which they are exhibiting, and on account of the many years’ sentence they have had to serve out. Because they have given themselves up to Satan for nearly a whole human generation, after being separated from communion with the faithful, like that Corinthian who gave himself up to Satan, in order that they too, like him, might learn not to do such impure acts.

Concord.​

The same St. Basil in his c. LXII canonizes sodomists to fifteen years, as well as adulterers. St. Gregory of Nyssa in his c. IV canonizes them to eighteen, remarking that this is a sin against aliency and that it is one that is unnatural. The Faster in his c. XVIII excludes the sodomist from communion for three years, with the additional penalties of fasting, zerophagy, and penances. In his c. XIX he says that if a child has been violated by someone he cannot become a priest, unless he received the sperm only between the thighs. But God commands in Leviticus that sodomists be put to death: "And if any man sleep with a male person in lieu of a woman, they have both of them committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; they are guilty" (Lev. 20:13).

62. As for any man who uncovers his nakedness in the midst of males, he shall be allotted the time fixed for those transgressing in the act of adultery.
(c. VII of Basil; c. IV of Nyssa.).

Interpretation.​

The present Canon canonizes anyone guilty of sodomy, i.e., sexual intercourse between males, like an adulterer, or, more expressly speaking, fifteen years. See also c. VII of the same St. Basil.


Canons of St. Gregory of Nyssa, included in the Rudder:
4. As for sins done for the satisfaction of desire and for pleasure, they are divided as follows: It has pleased some of the more accurate authorities, indeed, to deem the offense of fornication to be tantamount to adultery; for there is but one lawful state of matrimony and conjugal relationship, namely, that of wife to husband and of husband to wife. Everything, then, that is not lawful is unlawful at any rate, including even the case in which a man has no wife of his own, but has that of another man. For only one helper was given to man by God (Gen. 2:20), and only one head was set over woman. "That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor," as divine Paul says (I Thess. 4:4-5), the law of nature permits the right use of it. But if anyone turns from his own, he will infringe upon another’s in any case; but another’s is whatever is not one’s own, even though its owner is not acknowledged. Hence it is evident that fornication is not far removed from the offense of adultery, as has been shown by those who give the question more accurate consideration, seeing that even the divine Scripture says: "Be not too intimate with another man’s wife" (Prov. 5:20). Nevertheless, inasmuch as a certain concession was made by the Fathers in the case to weaker men, the offense has been distinguished on the basis of the following general division to the effect that whenever a man fulfills his desire without doing any injustice to another man, the offense is to be called fornication; but when it is committed by plotting against and injuring another man, it is to be called adultery. Copulation with the lower animals, too, and paederasty are considered to belong to this class of offenses, because they too are a sort of adultery, or in the nature of adultery. For the wrongfulness consists in infringing upon what belongs to another or acting contrary to nature. This division, then, having been made also in connection with this kind of sin, the general remedy for it consists in the marts becoming purified and being made pure as a result of regret for the passionate madness for such pleasures. But inasmuch as no injustice has been made admixed with the sin of those polluting themselves by fornication, therefore and on this score the length of time fixed for the return of those tainted by adultery has been double that fixed for the other forbidden evils. For, the penalty for copulation with lower animals and for the madness practiced upon males has been doubled, as I have said, because such cases involve one sin consisting in the enjoyment of a forbidden pleasure, and another sin consisting committing an injustice with what belongs to another man, after the manner of abusing another marts wife. The difference between cases testing upon repentance, and offenses committed for the sake of pleasure amounts to the following. For any man who on his own initiative and of his own accord proceeds to confess the sins, the mere fact that he has condescended on account of secret acts to become an accuser of himself as a result of an impulse of his own, is to be considered proof that the cure of the disease has already begun, and since he has shown a sign of improvement, he is entitled to kinder treatment. One, on the other hand, who has been caught in the act of perpetrating the offense, or who has been exposed involuntarily as a result of some suspicion or of some accusation, incurs an intensification of the penalty, when he returns; so that only after he has been purified accurately may he then be admitted to communion of the Sanctified Elements. The canon, therefore, is such that as for those who have polluted themselves by fornication, they are to pray along with kneelers for three years in a state of return, and are then to be allowed to partake of the Sanctified Elements. But in the case of those who have made better use of their reversion and life and are showing a return to what is good, it is permissible for the one entrusted with the management of the matter, with a view to what is of advantage to the ecclesiastical economy, to reduce the length of time of listening and to allow a quicker reversion’, and again he may even reduce the length of time and allow Communion to be administered sooner, as he may by actual test be persuaded to approve the condition of the person under treatment (Matt. 7:6). For precisely as it has been forbidden to throw a pearl to swine, so too it is a piece of absurdity the man in question of the most precious Pearl through indifference and insistence upon purity. A transgression committed after the manner of adultery, or, in other words, after the example of the other kinds of filthiness, as has been said previously, shall be treated in all respects in the same way of judgment as is the abominable sin of fornication, but the length of time shall be doubled. But the disposition of the person being treated shall be observed in regard thereto, in the same manner as in the case of those who have allowed themselves to be polluted by fornication, so that sooner or later they shall be allowed the privilege of partaking of the essence of the good.

Interpretation.​

The Saint is decreeing in this Canon respecting penalties pertaining to the desiderative faculty in connection with sinful deeds, and first of all as respecting fornication, by stating that the more accurate and more discerning authorities say that fornication is considered to be regarded as adultery, and offer some such proof as the following. For, if adultery is a sin committed with a strange woman, by the same token fornication is to be regarded as a sin committed with a strange woman too and therefore is to be considered adultery. For there can be but one lawful conjugal relationship and coition of a woman with a man, and of a man with a woman, which takes place with his own body. Every other kind of sexual intercourse, besides this, is unlawful, and consequently is not had with one’s own body, but with a strange body, since in the beginning God gave man only one wife, and woman only one husband. And so, if one has a vessel of his own (as St. Paul says), or, in more express terms, a wife, he is allowed to have sexual intercourse with her; but if he has sexual intercourse with any other besides his own, then, of course, he is guilty of coition with a strange body, even though the latter has no definite and manifest owner. But it is apparent, however, that all these acts follow the course of fornication; so, according to this proof, is not far from being adultery, and indeed this agrees with what Solomon says: "Be not too intimate with a strange woman"; or, in other words, do not commit any breach of propriety with a strange woman, i.e., with a harlot. Nevertheless, in spite of all these facts, the Fathers indulgently call the sin committed with any woman fornication, provided no other man has any right to exact revenge for the deed: this amounts to saying that when a man commits the sin with any unmarried woman it is fornication. Hence they canonized it more leniently than adultery, to nine years; that signifies that fornicators are sentenced to weep outside the narthex for three years, to listen for three years, and to kneel for three years, and thereafter to partake of communion (see also c. XXII of St. Basil). It is competent, however, to the spiritual physician to reduce the number of years of listening for those fornicators who repent more eagerly, as well as to reduce the number of years of kneeling, and to allow them to participate in the Mysteries sooner than they would be allowed to do without a commutation of their sentence, in accordance with his opinion of the disposition of the penitent. For, just as it is absurd for one to throw pearls, the holy mysteries, that is to say, to swine, to the impure, that is to say, who are not genuinely repentant, so and in like manner it is also absurd for one to deny the most precious Pearl, or, more expressly speaking, the body of Christ, to a man who has been purified through the process of repentance and abstention from the evil, and who has become reconverted from a swine into a human being. So much for fornication. As for adultery, sodomy, and bestiality, the Fathers canonized these sins doubly more than fornication, or, more expressly, each of them eighteen years, because the sin involved in them is also double. For, that is to say, adultery, besides the unlawful pleasure it affords, also inflicts an injustice upon the husband of the woman with whom the guilty man has committed the adultery, because he appropriated unjustly that husband’s own property, his wife, that is to say. As for sodomy, on the other hand, and bestiality (or sexual intercourse with beasts), in these too besides the unlawful pleasure they afford, there is an actual injustice done to what is strange or unnatural, or, more explicitly speaking, they violate the laws of nature, in that they are sins contrary to nature. The number of years for each of these sinful deeds has likewise been economically fixed like those for fornication, but doubly as many: that is to say, in other words, adulterers are to spend six years in weeping outside the church, and so are those guilty of sodomy and of bestiality; they are to listen for six years, and to kneel for six years more, and then they are to commune. Nevertheless, the disposition of such persons has to be observed by the spiritual father, as is also that of fornicators, so that, if they repent more willingly and more eagerly, he may allow them the sooner to partake of communion; but if they revert more negligently, he may not allow to them the right to commune even later than the eighteen years. The general medical treatment both of fornicators and of adulterers and of sodomists and of bestialists is to have them abstain entirely from such pleasures as these and to repent.

 

[jckstraw72]

continued:

But there is also a difference in the manner of the confession made by such sinners as these. For the one who of his own accord goes and confesses is canonized more philanthropically and more lightly, owing to the fact he himself has seen fit to accuse himself, and to show a sign of change for the better; whereas the one who formerly denied his guilt, but was later convicted of sinning, whether as a result of a suspicion, or as a result of accusations lodged against him by others, he is canonized more heavily and sentenced to a much longer time, to a greater number of years. See also cc. XVI and XX of Ancyra, and c. VII of St. Basil, and c. XII of the 1st, which provides that leniency shall be adjusted to correspond with the repentance shown by the sinner.

[FONT=&quot]18. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It has seemed advisable to exclude any man who has been so mad as to copulate with another man from Communion for three years, weeping and fasting, and towards evening confined to xerophagy, and doing two hundred metanies. But as for one who prefers to take it easy, let him fulfill the fifteen years.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Interpretation.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]The present Canon canonizes any man guilty of arsenocoetia (i.e., sexual intercourse between males) not to partake of Communion for three years, but during this time to weep over his sin and to fast until evening, to content himself with xerophagy, and to do two hundred metanies daily. But if he does not care to observe these regulations, let him abstain from communion for fifteen years, just as c. LXII of Basil canonizes those guilty of arsenocoetia, which you may read for yourself, as well as his c. VII.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Canons of St. John the Faster, included in the Rudder:
9. As for sexual intercourse of men with one another, such as practicing double masturbation, it received the stated penance of up to eighty days.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Interpretation.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]By "sexual intercourse" the Canon means here, not the perfect sin of arsenokoetia (Mentioned in I Cor. 6:9 and I Tim. 1:10), commonly termed sodomy in English, but the act of two men who touch each other. This sin is canonized by the Saint with a double canon, and those committing it are penanced for eighty days of xerophagy, on each one of which they have to do metanies one hundred. Because each of these offenders is not only hurting himself, but is also hurting his brother, and this makes the sin a double sin.[/FONT]

 

[127.0.0.1]

jckstraw72

Thank you for posting, it gives me a more clear mind as to what the Saints thought. It is nice that St. Basil explicitly mentions what he's talking about instead of nudging the reading and trailing off with, "you know...". I see he opposes male on male intercourse because God gave only one help-meet to man. That nudging and leaving the reader to assume, and merely referring to something as unseemly was driving me insane because I don't want to have to assume to know what the Saint is talking about...I wanna know!

For only one helper was given to man by God (Gen. 2:20), and only one head was set over woman. "That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor," as divine Paul says (I Thess. 4:4-5), the law of nature permits the right use of it.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Romans 6:1-4 (New King James Version)

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Gal 3:27)

Justin when you were Baptized and Chrismated you put on Christ. You publicly stated that you renounce Satan and all of his works, and that you want to have a relationship with Christ. In doing so, you began the process to allow Christ to transform you, and allow theosis to begin.

It's almost as if you are saying "Okay God, you can come into my life, but only under these terms and conditions." God is not subject to us, but rather WE are subject to GOD.

You say you want to seek a relationship with a man, yet you are rejecting the most important relationship a person can have in life; that with GOD.
You are saying you are Orthodox for now. As if to imply you will stay Orthodox until something better comes along.

You have said in the past that it is hard for you to choose a relationship with God over a relationship with a boyfriend because you can not joke around with God, cannot cuddle with Him, cannot have romantic dates with Him. You are putting terms as to what you want God to do for you, but what have you done for HIM?

On April 11th of this year you publicly renounced Satan and all His works to live for God, but have you really done so? Have you allowed God to come into your life and transform you on HIS terms, or are you still waiting for Him to appear on YOUR's?

Today the Church celebrates the life of St. Mary Magdalene, a woman who put her life in the hands of our Lord to deliver her from the presence of seven demons. When all but one of the Apostles stayed away from Christ during His crucifixtion, she was there. When others fled the empty tomb believing the body had been stolen, she looked again to see that He was there, and He is Risen!

I know that you may feel at times that God is not there for you in your life, and that He doesn't care for you. I would encourage you to take the cue from St. Mary Magdalene and look again. He IS there.

 

[Michael G]

HG I owe you reps in the AM.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, when you showed us your baptismal photos, we wished you many years. we still do. but many years of what? many years of compromise? many years of ease? no. many years of struggle and spiritual warfare. you put on the whole armor of God for a reason. you were branded with the seal of the Holy Spirit for a reason.

you put off the old man, and put on Christ, don't give the old man an inch because that's all the devil needs.

 

[AureateDawn]

Handmaiden, I know that God is there. He is everywhere, and loves us. Yes, I have put on Christ. Yes, I am allowing God into heart, my soul, my life, and I am allowing Him to transform me. You seem to separate "God" and "gay" - as if I can't have both at the same time (God being the most important... He's God! ). But I can. Thank you so much for reminding me of my baptism. It brought back beautiful memories that had been shoved into the recesses of my mind, and I am thankful for that. I have put on Christ and I am allowing God to transform me. I love God, and life, and am so thankful for it all.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Yes, I have put on Christ.

Justin, just FYI... Yes, you've put on Christ, but if you leave Orthodoxy, you'd be taking Him off. You're ambiguous faith icon is starting to freak some of us out.

The whole point of getting baptized is to stay Orthodox and not just for a little while.

Times will be tough, no doubt we have to put up with a lot, but that's why we put our trust in God. God's revelation to man is never-ending.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You seem to separate "God" and "gay" - as if I can't have both at the same time (God being the most important... He's God! ). But I can.

but that's the problem, any sin breaks communion against God. it does not matter what it is from stealing a pack of gum from your sister, to murdering someone in cold blood. embracing a homosexual lifestyle will break communion with God. this will happen.

you might not see it, but at the very least, you are telling God that He does not know what He is talking about when it comes from the very physical intimacy that He created. God has defined it as between one man, one woman, and committed for life in marriage.

I mean if you think about it. He created our sexuality, He defined it, He watched it fall, then He provided the "rules" for us in our fallen state. a homosexual lifestyle is outside of what He has defined love to be, and seeing that He is love, I think He knows.

 

[Andrew21091]

Justin, you cannot just give up. You cannot abandon the struggle just because you think all is hopeless. You say that your feelings cannot be prayed away but I think that you are wrong. You say you have tried praying it away but for how long? Justin, I want to relate something from the life of the Holy Elder Joseph the Hesychast.

After Elder Joseph lived for a little while on the Holy Mountain, he began to be assailed by many temptations of the flesh, and he warred with these temptations very violently. He was brought up very strictly and never had any contact with women that would be called carnal but these passions pretty much just made their appearance on their own. He increased his prayers, increased his thirst, stood for very long periods of time, and even beat himself with what he would call his "passion repelling stick". After all this, these temptations didn't go away, on the contrary they increased in an even more violent way and when he didn't fall to the temptations, demons would actually attack him physically. As the temptations increased, he increased his struggle and even gave up sleeping in a bed replacing it with a stool. This war with the flesh would quiet down every once in a while but it would fire back up. The Elder says, "My body started to get worn out and my courage wavered, because my weapons were losing their force. I found relief in prayer, and that was what comforted me". The Elder could have ended it any time, he could have given up and left the battle but he didn't and out of his love for God, he carried on his struggle and it only got worse as the days progressed. He struggled with these violent temptations for eight long years. One day he was sitting in his cell praying and then he felt something touching him trying to arouse him and when he opened his eyes he say and horrifying looking demon who gave off a terrible smell. This was the demon of fornication who was tempting him and when he saw it, he attacked it and beat the demon until it disappeared and after that a fragrant smell filled his cell and a calm came of the Elder; he knew that the war was over.

In the end, Elder Joseph was victorious and never had the temptations again. This only came after many years of extremely intense struggle. He taught that God gives us temptations in order to humble us and keep us close to him. He gives us struggles so that we endure all for His unending love. He said in his letters, “So you don’t want to suffer? Then don’t expect to ascend.” When we are fighting against our sins, we cannot expect a change to come over night. No, we have to endure and suffer all for Christ and we cannot give up. Justin, God gave you this certain temptation to fight against, not to submit to it. Will you not endure everything for Christ’s love? One cannot live in sin and be pleasing to God. We have to war against our sins and take up our cross and follow Christ and the only way to follow Him is through the narrow and straight path, which cannot not be walked upon without suffering for Christ’s sake. We do battle with the demons and then we have to present our wounds to Christ so that He being he good Physician of our souls may heal them. Don’t give up Justin by trying to justify yourself saying that what you are doing is ok, it is not and it is a delusion. Can’t you see Christ hanging on the Cross with His side stabbed with the spear? He did that for your sake because of His love for you. He suffered for you but what have you done for Him? I find it lamentable that you have chosen to give up since you think that there is no other alternative but to give in to your sins. Don’t fall for it Justin. A sin is a sin and nothing can change that, it cannot be justified. May Elder Joseph be an example for you. All things can be conquered with God’s help and I mean all things since everything is possible through Him. I also struggle with many sins and some of them are extremely hard to overcome but I cannot just one day decide well, I tried but God will understand if I don’t want to struggle anymore, I did my best. No, God doesn’t want that, He wants us to be perfect just as Our Father in Heaven is perfect and to be perfect means to cleanse ourselves of all of our sins.

We all love you Justin and we don’t want to see you give up on the Church because you cannot live the way you want to. You have to live according to the Commandments of God and the teachings of the Church. Do you understand this?

 

[AureateDawn]

ArmyMatt - here is the different. I don't believe it is a sin. I am not breaking communion with God, but strengthening it.

Andrew - That sounds like sleep deprivation and some mental issues. But maybe not, and if not, it's really cool how God works through such holy people. You seem to assume I am giving up. Not at all! I see Christ hanging on the Cross for me, and I love Him, and He died for me. I love God, and will continue to love God and strive to be closer to Him.

As I said, you all are separating "God" and "gay" as if both cannot happen simultaneously.

 

[ArmyMatt]

ArmyMatt - here is the different. I don't believe it is a sin. I am not breaking communion with God, but strengthening it.

yeah, but here is the problem, God has defined it as sin. it doesn't matter what any of us think. if I want to lust after women, I break communion with God. if you want to enter into a homosexual relationship, you break communion with God. I mean, just a few posts ago you stated you were fine with giving up Holy Communion.

see these aren't any of our opinions, this is the teaching of the Church. look at this whole thread and you will see saints' lives, Scripture, Patristic quotes, the whole nine yards all testifying to the Truth that homosexuality is sin. forgive me, but all you have said is that you think it's okay. well God's opinion on things is clear, that homosexuality is sinful.

how can you say that you trust God, when you don't trust what He says?