Proof that Gay Relationships are Wrong

[Orchids]

You're trying to compare love to lying, cheating, murder, etc. It's nonsensical. In this you just say that it is against God's will as if that is proof enough by you saying it is against God's will.

It is God's will that people do not practice homosexuality. In addition to the Old Testament saying this quite strongly, the New Testament does as well.


Read Romans 1:24-32:

"Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.

28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them."

Also read 2 Timothy 3:1-5:
" But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away"

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Justin,

Why in the world would you think that Paul only had in mind temple orgies? Where is the proof for that? Please back up that statement with something.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. --I Cor 6

Fornicators (people who engage in premarital sex), adulterers (people who engage in extra-marital sex), homosexuals and sodomites (tops and bottoms) are all outside of what can be considered licit sexual behavior.

Our culture gives the impression that there is this in between territory where people can be intimate (kissing, holding hands, having intimate conversations) without being married or having the goal of marriage. I have a teenage son, who is open to being taught by his parents and his godfather on the subject of dating (thank God!). We are teaching him that the goal of dating is marriage. Until he is ready for marriage, he can interact with girls as friends on group dates. But one-on-one dating when marriage is far off just leads to frustration. He understands that he must prepare himself to be a husband, a provider, before he can think about making promises of love to a girl. Nowadays, everything is so upside down that people date, which puts pressure on for sexual involvement (including kissing), before they even consider what the purpose of all of that interaction is.

Have you asked your priest about all this?

M.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Sometimes real life gets in the way of our preconceived beliefs.

Across the street from me, on the corner there was a white house up for sale. Two woman, I would say in their late 30, maybe early to late 40's purchased the home. I noticed they had a young child, and they seemed very family oriented. Like yesterday they had a tent on the front lawn, and they were having a big party for the kid, the neighbors kids came over also.

I also noticed my neighbor, I call him "Mr macho" he is a typical Union macho type, that when he shakes your hand , he looks into your eyes as he squeezes your hand, to discern any human weakness. LOL But mr macho befriended the neighbors. I always wave to them, when they are out shoveling snow, or mowing the lawn. depending on the season.

They both work and are assets to our community, their kid seems loved and well taken care of. I guess my point is, where do these two woman fit in, in relation to the early Christian writers, when they talk about being disordered, and given over to depravity.

maybe I am just viewing the exterior of a well concealed malevolence. But it leaves me with a lot of questions.

 

[AureateDawn]

Sometimes real life gets in the way of our preconceived beliefs.

Across the street from me, on the corner there was a white house up for sale. Two woman, I would say in their late 30, maybe early to late 40's purchased the home. I noticed they had a young child, and they seemed very family oriented. Like yesterday they had a tent on the front lawn, and they were having a big party for the kid, the neighbors kids came over also.

I also noticed my neighbor, I call him "Mr macho" he is a typical Union macho type, that when he shakes your hand , he looks into your eyes as he squeezes your hand, to discern any human weakness. LOL But mr macho befriended the neighbors. I always wave to them, when they are out shoveling snow, or mowing the lawn. depending on the season.

They both work and are assets to our community, their kid seems loved and well taken care of. I guess my point is, where do these two woman fit in, in relation to the early Christian writers, when they talk about being disordered, and given over to depravity.

maybe I am just viewing the exterior of a well concealed malevolence. But it leaves me with a lot of questions.

Exactly. And especially your first sentence... It's all nice and fine when it's theoretical. When I don't like anyone and no one likes me back. When I can go to church and say that it is wrong for me to "marry" and have a family. But when you like someone, and someone likes you back... it's not theoretical anymore. And real life gets in the way...

 

[ArmyMatt]

well, as far as the two women go, if they are having sex, how much the help the community does not change the fact that their behavior is wrong. I could win a million dollars and give it all to charity, but that doesn't overshadow my sinfulness. it's not like God is gonna be at the Judgment saying that I may have had sex with my live in girlfriend all my life, but I donated to a local charity, so that covers up my sin. it doesn't matter what the sin is or how hard the struggle, sin must be fought until we hear, "Come ye blessed of My Father."

 

[Orchids]

Looks like what is written in the Bible really doesn't matter to you at all, Justin. May God be with you, but you are living a delusion, just as the Bible says. You do not belong in Orthodoxy with attitudes like this. I hope you change your mind, someday, but it looks like you are throwing a blind eye to whatever we say here.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Exactly. And especially your first sentence... It's all nice and fine when it's theoretical. When I don't like anyone and no one likes me back. When I can go to church and say that it is wrong for me to "marry" and have a family. But when you like someone, and someone likes you back... it's not theoretical anymore. And real life gets in the way...

We learn the theology and teachings of the Church so that when "Real Life" comes along and we face temptation, we know what the correct decision is and what the wrong decision is.

As my Grandmother recently said, "We aren't here for a vacation." In other words, "Real Life" is hard. Real hard. Whether or not an individual bears the cross of same-sex attraction, life is full of tough decisions. It is by the grace of God alone that we are able to make the correct decisions.

You mentioned before something about a "commitment ceremony." A "commitment ceremony" is not marriage. All it is, is two people of the same gender playing house and promising one another to play house until death do they part. (This is one of the big reasons why the LGBT community is pushing for the legalization of marriage, so they don't have to do commitment ceremonies anymore.)

This is not Biblical, and it is outside the teachings of the Church.

Marriage is between one man and one woman.

Dating/Courting is to be done with the intent to marry. If one cannot marry, then one should not date.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Sometimes real life gets in the way of our preconceived beliefs.

Across the street from me, on the corner there was a white house up for sale. Two woman, I would say in their late 30, maybe early to late 40's purchased the home. I noticed they had a young child, and they seemed very family oriented. Like yesterday they had a tent on the front lawn, and they were having a big party for the kid, the neighbors kids came over also.

I also noticed my neighbor, I call him "Mr macho" he is a typical Union macho type, that when he shakes your hand , he looks into your eyes as he squeezes your hand, to discern any human weakness. LOL But mr macho befriended the neighbors. I always wave to them, when they are out shoveling snow, or mowing the lawn. depending on the season.

They both work and are assets to our community, their kid seems loved and well taken care of. I guess my point is, where do these two woman fit in, in relation to the early Christian writers, when they talk about being disordered, and given over to depravity.

maybe I am just viewing the exterior of a well concealed malevolence. But it leaves me with a lot of questions.

I don't know what this has to do with anything. Can two women raise a child? Yes, of course. It happens all the time. A grandmother and a daughter can raise the daughters baby together. Two aunts can raise the child left by their deceased brother.

Does the ability of two people of the same sex to raise a child make sex between them licit? No it does not.

Intercourse between people of the same sex is a sin. Does that mean those people are completely devoid of the image of God or common grace? No, of course not!

M.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Looks like what is written in the Bible really doesn't matter to you at all, Justin. May God be with you, but you are living a delusion, just as the Bible says. You do not belong in Orthodoxy with attitudes like this. I hope you change your mind, someday, but it looks like you are throwing a blind eye to whatever we say here.

Before you start throwing Justin out of Orthodoxy, I wonder how many temptations you have struggled with in your life that are outside the teachings of the Church?

Since when is the struggle with same-sex attraction any worse than any other sin?

“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at [him] first.” John 8:7

Justin is and has been struggiling with this issue for a long time. Does he need direction? Yes. Does he need instruction? Yes. Does he need compassion? Absolutely.

While we cannot condone same-sex attraction, we should be compassionate to those who struggle with it. For it is only within the healing bonds of the Church and by the grace of God that he may receive the help he truly needs.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

But when you like someone, and someone likes you back... it's not theoretical anymore. And real life gets in the way...

You know, I could very easily say that being faithful in marriage is easy until someone likes me and I like them back. After being married 14 years, if someone came along and swept me off my feet and everything was new and exciting, I could start making excuses for all sorts of feelings and behavior. And that is how a lot of people end up divorced.

But the fact is that adultery is a sin and I have to uphold my vows, even if this hypothetical situation were to arise.

And you have taken vows also. You united yourself to Christ in your baptism. You pledged your life to Him and to the Orthodox Church. What about that "commitment ceremony?"

M.

 

[Orchids]

Before you start throwing Justin out of Orthodoxy, I wonder how many temptations you have struggled with in your life that are outside the teachings of the Church?

Since when is the struggle with same-sex attraction any worse than any other sin?

“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at [him] first.” John 8:7

Justin is and has been struggiling with this issue for a long time. Does he need direction? Yes. Does he need instruction? Yes. Does he need compassion? Absolutely.

While we cannot condone same-sex attraction, we should be compassionate to those who struggle with it. For it is only within the healing bonds of the Church and by the grace of God that he may receive the help he truly needs.

How did I throw him out? It seems to me he is not accepting the Orthodox teaching on this, and plans on doing it anyway, with or without being Orthodox, I do not know. Somehow, Justin needs to see what he is doing, and if no one points it out, then that is our fault. If we say, "Okay, it's okay, do what you want, just don't leave Orthodoxy!" That is absurd. He needs to think this through. I didn't throw him out, just want him to think about this in those terms. In the end, it is his decision. We placed a lot of scripture here that he totally ignored. Maybe you're throwing me out of Orthodoxy. That's fine. I call them as I see them. Why beat around the bush? You can go ahead and coddle and speak softly all you want to, but you may not get through to him, either. And Justin owes Topaz an apology.

 

[Blonde]

I think Justin, that a commitment ceremony would be committing to sin.....wouldn't it?
If you don't want to look at anything in the Bible or the Church for proof, isn't the human body proof enough? The woman was made for the man and the woman is able to receive the man. Woman cannot receive anything from woman and man's body was not made to receive.

 

[ArmyMatt]

it's not theoretical anymore. And real life gets in the way...

yeah, I would say most of us can understand this point (and I mean having a sinful desire to struggle against), because that's what it's like living in a fallen world with a God Who calls us to rise above it's fallenness.

is it tough? you bet, but nothing of worth that comes easy is ever really worth it.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

You know, I could very easily say that being faithful in marriage is easy until someone likes me and I like them back. After being married 14 years, if someone came along and swept me off my feet and everything was new and exciting, I could start making excuses for all sorts of feelings and behavior. And that is how a lot of people end up divorced.

But the fact is that adultery is a sin and I have to uphold my vows, even if this hypothetical situation were to arise.

And you have taken vows also. You united yourself to Christ in your baptism. You pledged your life to Him and to the Orthodox Church. What about that "commitment ceremony?"

M.

I would really like an answer to that last question.

And also, I want to point out that you began this thread asking for proof, denying the Holy Scriptures as they have been understood by the Church (which is the definition of Holy Tradition) and seeking wisdom from the Fathers (that you said probably wouldn't be accurate anyway). Now we can see that there is a very specific intention behind your questions. Why don't you simply ask what you really want to know?

M.

 

[127.0.0.1]

The debate that is going on here has been captured almost perfectly by these two legendary comedians.

[youtube]sShMA85pv8M[/youtube]

I think everyone here can relate, regardless of their view because it's just as frustrating for each of us.

 

[Eutropius]

The debate on homosexuality in the Orthodox Church.

[youtube]sShMA85pv8M[/youtube]

I think everyone her can relate regardless of their view because it's just as frustrating for each of us.

There is no debate on this within the Orthodox Church. You are mistaken about that.

 

[Dorothea]

Speaking of this subject. I just felt the need to post this here. But it's in regards to the teachings of Christ and His Church for 2000 years. It's about how many faiths have become watered-down to fit comfortably for the people. My priest did a homily on this today. He talked about the Holy Fathers that defended the Trinity and all over one word, "like," instead of saying he was the same in essence (forgive me, I'm no scholar, and my memory isn't perfect). But anyhow, Fr. used the analogy of a bottle of wine and every subject that came up that the church was to defend but didn't (whatever the controversy), but instead, they'd have said, "ah, that's not a big deal in the whole scheme of things," and added water to the wine. Pretty soon, you'd have more water than wine, and it would no longer be the Truth, but a watered-down version of it. It is the job of the Church and its members to be stedfast in our beliefs, not bend just because it doesn't seem like a big deal to some.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Justin,

Meditate on this passage, please. A long time ago, I came to admire a woman who always had a verse from Proverbs on her tongue. I wanted to follow her example and set myself to memorizing many proverbs so that I could give them to my son as instruction. There is so much wisdom. Turn to God and ask Him for wisdom.

Proverbs 4

Wisdom Is Supreme

Listen, my sons, to a father's instruction;
pay attention and gain understanding.
I give you sound learning,
so do not forsake my teaching.

When I was a boy in my father's house,
still tender, and an only child of my mother,

he taught me and said,
"Lay hold of my words with all your heart;
keep my commands and you will live.

Get wisdom, get understanding;
do not forget my words or swerve from them.

Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you.

Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, get understanding...

Listen, my son, accept what I say,
and the years of your life will be many.

I guide you in the way of wisdom
and lead you along straight paths.

When you walk, your steps will not be hampered;
when you run, you will not stumble.

Hold on to instruction, do not let it go;
guard it well, for it is your life.

Do not set foot on the path of the wicked
or walk in the way of evil men.

Avoid it, do not travel on it;
turn from it and go on your way...


The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn,
shining ever brighter till the full light of day.

But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness;
they do not know what makes them stumble.

My son, pay attention to what I say;
listen closely to my words.

Do not let them out of your sight,
keep them within your heart;

for they are life to those who find them
and health to a man's whole body.

Above all else, guard your heart,
for it is the wellspring of life.

Put away perversity from your mouth;
keep corrupt talk far from your lips.

Let your eyes look straight ahead,
fix your gaze directly before you.

Make level paths for your feet
and take only ways that are firm.

Do not swerve to the right or the left;
keep your foot from evil.

M.

 

[AureateDawn]

edit nvermind...

 

[Michael G]

Before you start throwing Justin out of Orthodoxy, I wonder how many temptations you have struggled with in your life that are outside the teachings of the Church?

Since when is the struggle with same-sex attraction any worse than any other sin?

“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at [him] first.” John 8:7

Justin is and has been struggiling with this issue for a long time. Does he need direction? Yes. Does he need instruction? Yes. Does he need compassion? Absolutely.

While we cannot condone same-sex attraction, we should be compassionate to those who struggle with it. For it is only within the healing bonds of the Church and by the grace of God that he may receive the help he truly needs.

Justin is not trying to follow the teachings of the Church. Justin is trying to live a homosexual lifestyle and validate it through the Church. Just as I had to turn my back on my icon teacher when I learned that he was openly gay after years of deceiving many about it, I can no longer listen to him rubbing it in everyones face that he is gay and that he is not trying one bit to not be gay.