Proof God created evil

[Ericka D. James]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

We don

 

[Ericka D. James]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I take issue with #7 and #8. God is not 100% responsible

I just want to revisit this for a moment. #6 says it was impossible for free agents to remain sinless. Doesn't it follow then that God is 100% responsible for their sin?

There is no indication that that period of choosing would continue for an infinite amount of time. I am not suggesting God would take away their free will

Isn't this contradictory?
1. God removes "period of choosing"
2. God does not take away free will

What do you mean by that? That you don't sin?

I would rather not derail this thread. The point is, this post is not born out of sin, but out of a desire to know Who God is.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Because we have to accept responsibility for our actions (in that we chose to sin). If we then do not choose the provided "way out", then we have rejected God completely.

But why should we accept responsibility for that which was inherently unable to be avoided?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We also have to realize that bad things can sometimes happen to draw us closer to GOD, as well.

For how can we be healed if we were never hurt?
How can we be fixed if we were never broken?
How can we be forgiven if we never sinned?
How can our love for GOD be witnessed to others if there are not tests or challenges to overcome?


...

 

[YouAreAwesome]

i think the mistake is that we believe we can understand spiritual things trough polls and human reasoning.

What's the alternative?

 

[Ericka D. James]

This is actually an an easy one. God created ed ALL things. He said it Himself in Scripture,"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7. He goes on to say that He "created the waster to destroy" in Isaiah 54:16.

When the New Testament (1John 1:5) shares..."that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all," this scripture gets lost in translation from Greek. When you read the actual Greek, it goes more like, "In the man there was no darkness. In the thing, there was darkness and they did not understand." Because God created all things, including light and dark (evil), the only way to experience the true light of God is through Jesus Christ, the Light of the World, in whom (Jesus as God) there is no darkness.

Everyone He created has purpose, including darkness. We just don't understand how to overcome it and remove it from our lives. It is part of the process of walking in our full salvation. Great question!

 

[Jack Hairston]

I am replying to @RDKirks statement. And yes - GOD created Evil as it is written, "
I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things." (Isaiah 45:7 Brentons Septuagint)

רַע (raʿ) evil, distress
The word κακός (LXX), already considered in relation to → ἀγαθός, (good) expresses the presence of a lack. In this verse, it is the opposite of prosperity (εἰρήνηνe, eirēnē peace), just as light is the opposite of darkness. None of them are absolutes.

 

[staffsgt7]

I find this amusing. many like to blame others for the wrong that they do, or get caught at doing. Blame God for your sin(s). yep - sounds like some more of that type of thinking.

 

[spinner981]

The problem comes with the misunderstanding of what evil is. Evil is simply the absence of righteousness. It isn't an entity of itself. It is what happens when you aren't completely good. Suggesting that God therefore 'created' evil is a false problem. Good already existed, and evil is simply the absence of good. If an entity has the potential for good then they also have the potential for evil. Short of GOD creating perfect clones of Himself He couldn't create any entity that could do good without the potential for them to also do evil.

We, like the angels, were given the choice and capability of doing good. This is not the creation of evil just as creating light doesn't also create darkness, but rather evil is just what happens when there is a lack of goodness. Nothing can have the 'potential' to do good without also having the 'potential' to not do good, ie: evil. God on the other hand simply is good. He has no potential in that regard.

Evil is not created, it is simply a consequence of the existence of both potential good and the free will to choose good or not. A man does not create murder when he crafts a firearm, and he isn't responsible for the improper use of that firearm. Just as God is not responsible for the improper use of the potential good He has given man.

 

[GusKlenke]

I do not find this persuasive in any way. There are many failures in logic here. But most glaring is #6 posits that it is impossible to remain sinless. The entire premise of Christianity is that Jesus had free will and yet REMAINED SINLESS. Therefore, from the Christian point of view, this means I could have remained sinless, but have chosen not. God allows evil, but did not create it.

 

[Dave James]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

Your logic is flawed at least at point #6 - but I will comment on only this one: All angels are free moral agents - as demonstrated by the fact that some chose to sin and some chose not to sin. Therefore, it is not true that it impossible for free moral agents to remain sinless.

Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity

 

[Aryeh]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

Looks interesting. This will be a completely blind post.

1. God created free agents

I think we already have a problem here. God created agents, but they aren't free. [The Word of] God Himself said that we are either slaves to righteousness, or slaves to lawlessness.

The misconception is created, imperfect beings have 100% free will. This is not true; no created, imperfect being has 100% free will. Imperfect beings have the latitude to choose how to react to temptations and sin, but the trajectory of their life is NOT their own. You do NOT make your own destiny.

This is a fail-safe for all of us. If imperfect beings were able to operate to their hearts desire, they would obliterate themselves. Our will is dampened now, and we are still on the road to obliterating each other.

The only entities that have 100% free will are perfect entities - Christ, angels, etc. But, as part of their submission to the Most High, they choose to use their free will to follow God's will 100% of the time.

2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e

Yes. All have the potential for evil IF you are a created being. That includes angels.

3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1

So is this the probability of the potential to do evil, or the probability that one will be evil? I am assuming the former, where p = 1 represents certainty to do evil.

4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]

I am assuming you mean P(e)=1 - exp(-ct)∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞, and c is a constsnt.

Generally yes. But, we have the problem of "infinite time," which is physically fussy.

We would also need more "functions" to take care of things like repentence, sin nature etc.

P(e)=1 - exp(-ct) + A*exp(kt) - B*exp(-qt) + ...

Where B*exp(-qt) represents repentence type evolution over time, and A*exp(kt) represents sin nature. We note that P must be less than or equal to zero. And, A, B, k, and q are real constants (for now.)

5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil

God created agents with limited ability to rebel. Evil, as it were and is, is a consequence of the actions imperfect beings execute that are against the Law of God. Like some of the angels, you can be created perfect and give in to rebellion. Perfection is honored by keeping it. Created beings have the limited ability to throw away their perfection in exchange for something else. Adam also did this, but Christ did not.

6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless

The angels in Heaven with God maintained their perfection, and sinlessness. Christ did as a human, and as He is now. Enoch at least regressed from lawlessness, and as time went on Enoch actually became more righteous. Evil is a choice.

7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil

No.

8. Therefore God created evil

He creates CALAMITY, but unadulterated evil is an invention of rebellious creatures. Does that mean He didn't know it was a possibility? No.

As others have said, in order to make a choice you need to be presented with as many facets as possible. God doesn't need this; He is complete. Also, anything against His command is evil. So, something doesn't have to be inherently evil for one to be considered evil for indulging.

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

I think it is more like God knows out of all of the possibilities of creation, this iteration will produce the maximum amount of people saved, and able to fellowship with Him.

 

[dandan27]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

 

[All Knowing]

I agree with YouAreAwesome, in a word, choice. God created freedom of choice, not evil. God is not evil, cannot be evil and has no evil in His presence. Free choice itself, and no other entity, has created evil. When this occured, like any good father, He had to lay down the law. Evil occured first and then the law. I found this article very interesting: What Creates Evil? - The New Message from God

 

[DingDing]

But why should we accept responsibility for that which was inherently unable to be avoided?

We have been given the freedom to choose. If we choose wrongly, that was our choice. There is then a burden upon both us and the God who created us. We for our choice, God for knowing we would eventually choose wrongly. But this is all a part of God having a relationship with created beings. To make it possible for us to have a relationship with Him, He must also make it possible for us to break that relationship. And break it we do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinism might be false, yet within an Armenian view if the probability of free-agents sinning is 1 the two views seem to agree anyhow. Free will or not, if it's a 100% chance that humans would sin, how can they be blamed or judged or held responsible?

GOD is the Law maker.
For example: If a father makes a house rule or law for his son to dump his trash full of food within his bedroom and the son does not do so, his father could be upset with him and give him a verbal warning until he cleans it. If the father sees verbal correction not working, the father may let his son to keep his stinky food to rot and smell up his room at least one time until his son sees his own error. The lesson is that the son may learn from his own mistake better than a lecture. The lesson is that God is the house rule maker who may let us learn from our own mistakes. God not acting to prevent an evil may mean a greater good could be at work that we cannot see (like with the story of Joseph, Job, and the best story of them all which is Jesus dying on the cross for us).


...

 

[Frank Lo]

It's hard to understand for baby Christians
But God did Created EVIL
1) Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows on the fire of coals and who produces a weapon for its purpose; and I have created the devastator to destroy.
2) Isaiah 45:7 I Form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.
3) John 1 God created everything
4) 1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

 

[dandan27]

I don't know.

 

[dandan27]

God knows.