Proof God created evil

YouAreAwesome said:

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

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evil does not exist -
it cannot be created

thesunisout said:

It's not the Revelation of John:

Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which was given to John by Christ through his angel. In other words, it is the word of God.

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You can't just cite "it says it's a Revelation from Jesus in the text" as proof that it is, that's circular reasoning—it's like saying a fiction book like Phantom of the Opera is true because the text says it is.

There were other Revelations/Apocalypses going around the Church at that time, deciding which books would be in it. One of which was the Apocalypse of Peter, which was said to be a discourse of Jesus to his faithful, describing what heaven and hell or like.

Both were said to be messages from Jesus. One made it into the Bible, Peter and others didn't.

Just to be clear: I can’t deny that God is in some sense responsible for the existence of evil. But he didn’t exactly create it. I’m not sure how much difference that makes ethically. This whole area is one that the Bible doesn’t really deal with. As far as I can recall it doesn’t say why God took the approach he did to us; why he created, why he didn’t make everything perfect. So all of this is speculation.

Most Christians seem to assume that, omnipotent or not, God still faced tradeoffs. He couldn’t make a world of perfection where people still had real choices. However we don’t know exactly what those tradeoffs are, so it’s hard to go much beyond that. Why would having real choices matter? If you look at Jesus’ discourses at the last supper in John, his vision is that ultimately we go beyond servants to being friends of God. Possibly developing into that kind of being requires facing difficulties and moral danger.

The Bible doesn’t speak in this kind of abstraction. It never exactly says that God is omnipotent, in the sense that people sometimes assume in these discussions. It says he’s powerful, that he can do what he wants, but I think the places it speaks like that are really speaking within the existing world. There’s no real discussion of what kinds of worlds were possible for him.

The only passage I know of that directly addresses the original question is Rom 11:32: “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.” The suggestion here is the God intentionally didn’t create anyone perfect. We were always intended to depend upon him. I have a view that you may think is heretical: I don’t think we were ever intended to be morally perfect. Humans, after all, learn through trying things out and making mistakes. As long as we care for each other and forgive each other, some moral mistakes ultimately aren’t that serious. (That’s not to deny that some people do serious harm, of course.) Despite the assertions of a fair number of theologians, “righteousness” in the Bible isn’t moral perfection. It’s a commitment to follow God and repent when we make mistakes. And according to Jesus (and the prophets) loving God and each other. Obviously some people go beyond moral mistakes to intentional damage to others. I have to assume that that was part of the tradeoff, that God couldn’t prevent that while still achieving his goals for us.

Of course this problem is one thing that leads a few people to concepts like open theism, that God isn’t omnipotent, but can only work through guidance. The point I’ve been making is that the distinction between orthodox Christianity and open theism may not be as black and white as some assume. Most orthodox Christians answer questions like this by talking about tradeoffs in design. These implicitly assume that there are only certain kinds of universe that God can make.

CrystalDragon said:

The difference though is that the parents don't know everything their child is going to do, just the potential. God knows everything and thus there's no "probably", especially since God is said to control everything.

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But parents DO KNOW their children will not be perfect. They may not be axe murderers, but their children will do some awful things. Even people who do not believe in the idea of total depravity KNOW their kids will misbehave, even the best kids will be horrible at times. So parents in effect, KNOW they are bringing beings unto the world who are not perfect and INCAPABLE of being perfect.

victorinus said:

evil does not exist -
it cannot be created

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Can you create a thought? And can you then choose to act upon that thought?

DingDing said:

Can you create a thought? And can you then choose to act upon that thought?

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no and yes
-but-
neither exists
-so-
neither is created

DingDing said:

Can you create a thought? And can you then choose to act upon that thought?

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victorinus said:

no ...

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So you can't think! So how then did you answer? Some people, in attempts to appear wise, become foolish.

DingDing said:

So you can't think! So how then did you answer? Some people, in attempts to appear wise, become foolish.

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where is the thought you created?
it doesn't exist -
it is like blowing air -
air exists but the blowing does not -
blowing still has an effect

victorinus said:

where is the thought you created?
it doesn't exist -
..

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So then, what are you responding to?

YouAreAwesome said:

Being how there will be no tempter in heaven and no tree of the knowledge of good and evil, will we carry the potential for evil in heaven?

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There was no tempter in Heaven when Satan fell, and he is the father of lies. So, the angels living in a perfect environment without a tempter had the potential for evil.

YouAreAwesome said:

In other words, you are postulating that God would take away the free agents moral free will to stop them from sinning at some point in the future. Why not take it away from the beginning?

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Clearly, it was important to God for Adam and Eve to choose of their own free will to do good or evil. There is no indication that that period of choosing would continue for an infinite amount of time. I am not suggesting God would take away their free will, either. I have free will to go back to my old sins but my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, has taught me a better way. He gives me the strength to resist those temptations. That doesn't invalidate my free will.

YouAreAwesome said:

I am not in sin.

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What do you mean by that? That you don't sin?

YouAreAwesome said:

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

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First, I hope I am wrong and you are not making any counsel against GOD here. For there is no counsel that you can make against the LORD whereby you would win. For it is written...

"There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD." (Proverbs 21:30).

In other words, you have to be willing to defend GOD even when you may not have all the answers. For there is no counsel or court case you can make against GOD whereby you would be able to stand victorious against Him (if that is what you are suggesting here).

Second, as others have said, evil is merely the absense of good just as darkness is the absence of light and or cold is the absence of heat. For waves of darkness do not come into your house at night anymore than evil is a created force or thing. Evil is owned by the person doing it. They are 100% responsible for their own evil because THEY CHOSE to do it and not GOD. God allowing evil to take place does not mean GOD approves of evil or that He preferred evil to happen over that which is good. For a person still has a choice to do good who is doing evil. They have free will.

Three, we have to realize that in the scope of eternity, evil is just a little drop within a bucket because it will be here for a time, be judged, and then completely destroyed or erased from existence. When people cry out to GOD in how He could allow for such evil things to happen to them or others, they are not looking at GOD's perspective on time and nor are they looking at how GOD is working within their life. Evil and sin and the devil are already judged and will have their end in the Lake of Fire. Evil and wicked beings will be as smoke that disappears into the sky.

Four, things like true love (Which was displayed for man to see with Jesus going to the cross for us) would not exist if there was no free will or evil. For true love is when two parties agree to love one another of their own free will. So if there was no evil, then true love could not exist, as well. For they are the opposite sides of the same coin of each other. Remember, God said to Cain? "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him" (Genesis 4:7). In other words, Cain had a choice to do either good or bad. GOD of course never wants anyone to do bad. When a person CHOOSES of their OWN free will to do evil that is on them. God is going to judge their evil and end them in the future if they do wrong in this world today.

Five, God can use evil (that man chooses to do) for His greater purpose for good. Joseph's brothers did evil against Joseph. But what they intended for evil, God intended for good. It is the same with the cross. The evil that the Jews and the Romans did upon our LORD is the very salvation and goodness that we can receive so as to be with the LORD because of the evil that we have done against Him. Thru darkness, we are able to contrast the light and appreciate it more. By Jesus going to the cross for us, we can truly value the love of God in a world of darkness and evil that man created for himself.

Six, God indirectly created evil and God did not directly create evil. God temporarily allowing evil from his free will beings that they have chosen does not mean GOD directly creates evil beings. Meaning, God did not one day create evil angels or wicked men from out of nothing. God created free willed creatures who of their own choice chose to do good or evil. Evil comes into the world directly as a result of man's choice and not God's choice. God only is the indirect author of evil because He made man to exist. But GOD did not desire evil to take place. For there is no darkness in GOD (1 John 1:5); And James 1:13 says, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

Now, some folks think that it is morally correct to say that God creates evil according to Isaiah 45:7 in how we understand the word "evil" today.

For when we think of the word "evil" we think of the devil and sin and things that are unholy and impure. However, ...

Did God directly create evil beings?
Did God directly create sin?
Did God directly create unholy or impure things?

For is "evil" (as we understand it today) in context to what the verse is really saying?

Well, lets look at Isaiah 45:7.

Isaiah 45:7 says,
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Now, some might say that the word "evil" here is meant to be "evil" as we would understand that word today.

However, lets just look at the context of this passage without knowing what the word "evil" really means by leaving it blank. This is what it would look like:

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create ______: I the LORD do all these things."

Now, lets say you were taking a test and you were asked to fill in the following based on the related information you were given above.

I would see that the opposite of light is darkness. For Isaiah 45:7 sets the standard of letting me know that God forms the light and the darkness. Light is in contrast or opposite to darkness. Okay, now that we have our structure of how this sentence is built, what is the opposite or contrast to Peace? For the next word has to contrast peace because we know Light contrasts darkness. Right? So what contrasts peace?

War, or calamity, or something that is not peaceful or calm. Does war mean something is evil? No. Good guys can fight for good causes to eliminate that which is evil or bad. So the word "evil" here is in context to what is the opposite of peace. Do you get it? This is how one reads the context of something. You look at the surrounding words and let them determine what that word is saying. One does not look at the word at face value and try and force a meaning that does not fit within the sentence. For words can look and sound the same but they can have multiple meanings. Especially during the time of the 1600's when the KJV was being written (Which influenced some later versions in their translations).

I hope what I had written here helps.
And may God bless you.



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thesunisout said:

What do you mean by that? That you don't sin?

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Please show me here where Jesus and the apostles discouraged others to follow GOD and His goodness and that they will always be in sin?


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DingDing said:

So then, what are you responding to?

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what you said
-and-
it doesn't exist

Evil or sin exists in the form of wrong actions or choices done by man (And not GOD). GOD temporarily allowing evil or knowing that it was going to exist in the future does not equate with GOD approving of evil and nor does it equate that GOD directly created evil. All evil that existed, or exists in the present today, and or will exist in the future is already judged by GOD at a future judgment. Nobody is going to get away with anything. Evil will come to an end and one day only GOD's goodness will remain.


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YouAreAwesome said:

If man (and angels) were created in such a way that they will choose evil with 100% certainty, are they in any way to blame?

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No.

YouAreAwesome said:

Ok, so God gives us the opportunity to make moral choices knowing we will choose evil, thus He takes responsibility for the evil choices we make by providing the 'remedy'. In other words, He created the problem, so He will fix it.

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Not necessarily. GOD did not create the problem of evil or sin. Man is the one responsible for bringing evil or sin into the world. Yet, God loves man and does want to see His creations destroyed by sin, so He provided a way for them to be healed and set free from a life of sin and destruction.

YouAreAwesome said:

This makes some sense to me. He provided sin in the package of moral free will and He provided salvation in that same package. However, why should we be judged for sin if it was inevitable?

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Yes, Calvinists do not understand the Judgment properly. They believe GOD chooses some to be saved and others to not be saved. Man is judged by their sinning in Adam according to them. But if GOD has the power to save, then WHY doesn't He just save them all? They can never answer this question. But, I see what you are saying, how can GOD judge sinful beings when that was their only chose given to them? They will point to Adam in this case saying Adam had free will and that all of mankind sinned in Adam.

Granted, it is true, in part, we are to blame for sinning in Adam, but not entirely. We will ultimately be held responsible for what we do here for our own actions and not the actions of one man (Adam) alone.

The heart of the problem with Calvinism is that it is a belief that makes one deny "responsibility."


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