Pronouncing THE (partial) NAME: יָהּ

[BelieveTheWord]

So THE NAME is more than a little controversial in MJ circles. However we are given a shortened version "YaH", and I think that the pronunciation isn't really controversial. With 46 uses in Scripture, it seems an appropriate way to compromise.

So what about the historical aspect of vowel pointing and such? Any inconsistencies? And since I don't know Hebrew what actually is the pronunciation?

Thanks

 

[pat34lee]

I don't think pronunciation is the problem for most here. They could pick one and use it.
The problem is that many are afraid of offending people.

 

[Viren]

Personally, I don't think vowels should be added to the name to make it easier to be pronounce. Maybe it was never meant to be pronounced with vowels. This would explain why the early Jews didn't for hundreds of years.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Yah is a great term. Basically everyone agrees on it. It's the last two letters that confuse people, for some strange reason.

The word is pretty basic, Yahuah, Ya-hoo-ah, not a strange thing at all, but for whatever reason people apply different pronounciations to this word than to other words. If YHWH had just been a completely neutral term, like the name of a gentile nation or of some person in the genealogical tables, we would not have this controversy today. But people choose to apply different pronounciation standards since it is the holy name. And it should be protected, but the pronounciation should not be affected, to the extent it is spoken. If you choose to say Hashem instead, do so. But if you choose to pronounce the name, follow the standard rules of the language.

People have controversies about the name because they dont follow regular standards of pronounciation, creating unique ways of pronouncing the Name.

 

[pat34lee]

And it should be protected, but the pronounciation should not be affected, to the extent it is spoken. If you choose to say Hashem instead, do so. But if you choose to pronounce the name, follow the standard rules of the language.

This is one thing I disagree with. We don't serve an idol with no power. Yahweh is more than capable of keeping his name protected, if it needs protecting. I say there is nothing we could do to diminish his name if we had that desire.

 

[Ken Rank]

People have controversies about the name because they dont follow regular standards of pronounciation, creating unique ways of pronouncing the Name.

My post is to you and others, and intended with respect, peace, and love in the tone. If something is taken out of that context, by no means was that my intent!

I think the controversies are created by a lack of understanding the Hebrew word shem (name). When WE in the West hear the word "name," we think, "what we call somebody." So naturally when a Christian who was only taught the denominational slant without any methodology comes into this more Hebraic realm, he doesn't understand the nuances of the word and thinks that "proclaim His name" means we have to make sure everybody we know and their grandmothers know whatever pronunciation we happen to prefer and that it is stated all the time. That isn't what shem means...

The word shem is translated as name but while pointing at an individual, it is dealing more with his character, reputation, and authority and less with what we call him. Here are some opinions to support this. I will do them in red and finish my thoughts in black:

The Hebrew word is shĕm, which means much more than “name” in English. It is not a mere label of identification, it is an expression of the essential nature of the bearer of that name. In Hebrew, in the Scriptures, it speaks foremost of His authority. The Name of יהוה reveals Him, His character, the remembrance of Him, and His authority. (The Scriptures, explanatory notes, 1998)

Original Word: shem
Usage Notes: "name; reputation; memory; renown."(Vine’s OT Notes)

“When we wish to refer to God in the clearest possible way we call him Ha`Shem, The Name, as “shem” encapsulates all He is! We have in the tradition that Adam named the animals because he was most aware of their true characters.” (Rabbi Mordechai Greenfiel)

A primitive word (perhaps rather from H7760 through the idea of definite and conspicuous position; compare H8064); an appellation, as a mark or memorial of individuality; by implication honor, authority, character: - + base, [in-] fame [-ous], name (-d), renown, report. (Strong's H8034)

I can certainly go on... there are a score of entries like this I have found over the years. The point is, God's SHEM, His name, defines HIM. When Moses saw Him pass by and the name was proclaimed, this is what was said:

Exodus 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.(6) And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,(7) Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

The idea of His "name" was describing His character and reputation... merciful, gracious, longsuffering, etc. This is missed by many today and instead we have people dividing over how to say or whether or not to even say His name... and we have people doing the same with calendars and all other things they know little about.

To proclaim the name of YHWH means to speak of the character attributes that define Him. To walk in His name is to walk in a manner consistent with His character and authority while profaning His name is the opposite, walking/living in a manner opposed to His will, to His character, to His authority! Not taking His name in vain? Well "take" is nasa which really means "to lift up" so not lifting up His name in vain means "Not elevating His character and authority before others in a way that make said character and authority to appear worthless.

I believe there is a pronunciation not being spoken by many at all and I think that is because our fighting over this profanes Him and that particular pronunciation, which I was tempted to share based on Viren's post from 9:31PM yesterday, is not thrown into the mix so as not to profane it. I can share it and it will make sense and frankly make more sense then taking Yehudah and removing the dalet to derive a pronunciation. But if we (and I realize this thread has been held in shalom, I speak of what we see all over the net) can't understand the concept of shem... and think every time we see His name it means we have to say it a certain way... then no sense in taking the next step.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

I don't think pronunciation is the problem for most here. They could pick one and use it.
The problem is that many are afraid of offending people.

Your latter point is what I'm getting at. For the purpose corporate worship, study, or whatever else, wouldn't the saying "Yah" be a reasonable and even Biblical compromise to avoid offense or at least distraction?

Ken, obviously we can have different experiences. I don't see anyone fixating on pronunciation at the expense of understanding the character of The Almighty. If there wasn't some literal application of His Name, why even give it? I don't want to squash anyone's passion about these kinds of details, because it often leads to new evidences and better understanding.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken, obviously we can have different experiences. I don't see anyone fixating on pronunciation at the expense of understanding the character of The Almighty. If there wasn't some literal application of His Name, why even give it? I don't want to squash anyone's passion about these kinds of details, because it often leads to new evidences and better understanding.

Most Messianic Jews were raised at least with an understanding that shem points to character. That is why I made a point to say, "So naturally when a Christian (i.e. non-Jew) who was only taught the denominational slant without any methodology comes into this more Hebraic realm, he doesn't understand the nuances of the word and thinks that "proclaim His name" means we have to make sure everybody we know and their grandmothers know whatever pronunciation we happen to prefer and that it is stated all the time." A Protestant was not raised with that mindset, and even though "name" means reputation in English too ("I can trust Sarah with my children, she has a good name.") the weight today when we see that word is on what we call somebody and thus we see people dividing over Yahweh, Yehovah, Jehovah, Yehuah, or some other pronunciation. His name is important, it DOES POINT TO HIM and thus using it to refer to Him is fine. But, rarely in Scripture are we being told to do this per se. Proclaiming the name, exalting the name, being baptized into a name, walking in a name, profaning the name, glorifying the name (etc.) are all not dealing with what we call Him but rather with some aspect of His character or authority.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Ken I appreciate your comments here, and elsewhere on the forum. I don't really have the energy to go into it, but maybe you could help with the character aspect of Our Father. With regard to His Name in the sense of relationship, can you elaborate on "charis" as a greater attribute, or even being deified in modern song?

 

[Lulav]

I don't think pronunciation is the problem for most here. They could pick one and use it.
The problem is that many are afraid of offending people.

I should hope it would be more about offending G-d.

 

[Lulav]

This is one thing I disagree with. We don't serve an idol with no power. Yahweh is more than capable of keeping his name protected, if it needs protecting. I say there is nothing we could do to diminish his name if we had that desire.

Apparently that is not true,

Solomon said:
I intend, therefore, to build a temple for the Name of the L-RD my God, as the L-RD told my father David, when he said, 'Your son whom I will put on the throne in your place will build the temple for my Name.'

Jeremiah 7

And from Leviticus

And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp; 11And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the L-RD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan 12And they put him in ward, that the mind of the L-RD might be shewed them.

13And the L-RD spake unto Moses, saying, 14Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. 15And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. 16And he that blasphemeth the name of the L-RD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the L-RD, shall be put to death.
​

 

[Lulav]

Yah is a great term. Basically everyone agrees on it. It's the last two letters that confuse people, for some strange reason.

The word is pretty basic, Yahuah, Ya-hoo-ah, not a strange thing at all, but for whatever reason people apply different pronounciations to this word than to other words. If YHWH had just been a completely neutral term, like the name of a gentile nation or of some person in the genealogical tables, we would not have this controversy today. But people choose to apply different pronounciation standards since it is the holy name. And it should be protected, but the pronounciation should not be affected, to the extent it is spoken. If you choose to say Hashem instead, do so. But if you choose to pronounce the name, follow the standard rules of the language.

People have controversies about the name because they dont follow regular standards of pronounciation, creating unique ways of pronouncing the Name.

It is unless it's being used in a blasphemous way, like the company called Yahoo. I don't think it's a coincidence either.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

It is unless it's being used in a blasphemous way, like the company called Yahoo. I don't think it's a coincidence either.

I don't think genuine blasphemy is contrary to what what Hoshiyya is saying. But you are possibly agreeing?

 

[pat34lee]

Apparently that is not true,

Nothing we can do will hurt Yahweh, or his name. As well to think that kicking a mountain will cause it to fall.
The prohibition on blasphemy is not for his sake but ours. When one person falls, they tend to take other
people down with them.

If his name required protection, he is much more capable than we are.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken I appreciate your comments here, and elsewhere on the forum. I don't really have the energy to go into it, but maybe you could help with the character aspect of Our Father. With regard to His Name in the sense of relationship, can you elaborate on "charis" as a greater attribute, or even being deified in modern song?

Thanks for your kind words. I am not sure exactly where you would like me to comment but I do see a great sense of consistency in Scripture and of course in God and as related to His name. The idea of "charis" (favor, grace... often "loving kindness" in the LXX) shows the heart of God from the very beginning all the way through Revelation. In fact, the idea of favor, grace or loving kindness is actually found far more times in the Tanach than in the NT. But how it relates to His name is intriguing because of the extended versions of His name. For example;

YHWH - This is a statement of His eternal nature. The word is a play on the word hayah (to be) and in its current form literally means, depending on who you ask, "self existent one" or "I am, I was, I will be." I prefer the latter but the point is, it is a statement that He is eternal. So... when we add the extensions to His name, we find charis:

YHWH-Rapha - rendered by most, "the Lord that heals," it means, "The eternal healer." This indicates a being who will eternally be OUR healer when we have done nothing to deserve healing.

YHWH-Nissi - rendered by most, "the Lord our banner," it means, "The eternal standard (or banner)." This shows His steadfastness toward His people for all eternity even when we have not deserved Him to stand as a standard for us.

YHWH-Shalom - rendered by most, "the Lord of Peace," it means, "The eternal peace." This shows consistency and comfort for all eternity even when we have done our best to stand distracted and in chaos.

I can list more but you get the point, His name declares not just who He is, it declares what He is to US and in nearly every case we are not worthy of what He is to us. Therefore, His own name as variously rendered, repeatedly declares charis being consistently directed at us for eternity.

 

[Truthfrees]

Thanks for your kind words. I am not sure exactly where you would like me to comment but I do see a great sense of consistency in Scripture and of course in God and as related to His name. The idea of "charis" (favor, grace... often "loving kindness" in the LXX) shows the heart of God from the very beginning all the way through Revelation. In fact, the idea of favor, grace or loving kindness is actually found far more times in the Tanach than in the NT. But how it relates to His name is intriguing because of the extended versions of His name. For example;

YHWH - This is a statement of His eternal nature. The word is a play on the word hayah (to be) and in its current form literally means, depending on who you ask, "self existent one" or "I am, I was, I will be." I prefer the latter but the point is, it is a statement that He is eternal. So... when we add the extensions to His name, we find charis:

YHWH-Rapha - rendered by most, "the Lord that heals," it means, "The eternal healer." This indicates a being who will eternally be OUR healer when we have done nothing to deserve healing.

YHWH-Nissi - rendered by most, "the Lord our banner," it means, "The eternal standard (or banner)." This shows His steadfastness toward His people for all eternity even when we have not deserved Him to stand as a standard for us.

YHWH-Shalom - rendered by most, "the Lord of Peace," it means, "The eternal peace." This shows consistency and comfort for all eternity even when we have done our best to stand distracted and in chaos.

I can list more but you get the point, His name declares not just who He is, it declares what He is to US and in nearly every case we are not worthy of what He is to us. Therefore, His own name as variously rendered, repeatedly declares charis being consistently directed at us for eternity.

Go ahead and list more. This is awesome to see in print.

 

[Lulav]

Thanks for your kind words. I am not sure exactly where you would like me to comment but I do see a great sense of consistency in Scripture and of course in God and as related to His name. The idea of "charis" (favor, grace... often "loving kindness" in the LXX) shows the heart of God from the very beginning all the way through Revelation. In fact, the idea of favor, grace or loving kindness is actually found far more times in the Tanach than in the NT. But how it relates to His name is intriguing because of the extended versions of His name. For example;

YHWH - This is a statement of His eternal nature. The word is a play on the word hayah (to be) and in its current form literally means, depending on who you ask, "self existent one" or "I am, I was, I will be." I prefer the latter but the point is, it is a statement that He is eternal. So... when we add the extensions to His name, we find charis:

YHWH-Rapha - rendered by most, "the Lord that heals," it means, "The eternal healer." This indicates a being who will eternally be OUR healer when we have done nothing to deserve healing.

YHWH-Nissi - rendered by most, "the Lord our banner," it means, "The eternal standard (or banner)." This shows His steadfastness toward His people for all eternity even when we have not deserved Him to stand as a standard for us.

YHWH-Shalom - rendered by most, "the Lord of Peace," it means, "The eternal peace." This shows consistency and comfort for all eternity even when we have done our best to stand distracted and in chaos.

I can list more but you get the point, His name declares not just who He is, it declares what He is to US and in nearly every case we are not worthy of what He is to us. Therefore, His own name as variously rendered, repeatedly declares charis being consistently directed at us for eternity.

We can see this in Revelation as well

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Asher hayah, V'hoveh, v'yavo

 

[anna ~ grace]

Can a believer and follower of haDerekh haMashiach also simply call Him Abba, Father? Or Avinu?

 

[Lulav]

This is one thing I disagree with. We don't serve an idol with no power. Yahweh is more than capable of keeping his name protected, if it needs protecting. I say there is nothing we could do to diminish his name if we had that desire.

I know of an internet facility that may be an attempt

The word "yahoo" is a backronym for "Yet Another Hierarchically Organized Oracle"[22] or "Yet Another Hierarchical Officious Oracle".[23] The term "hierarchical" described how the Yahoo database was arranged in layers of subcategories. The term "oracle" was intended to mean "source of truth and wisdom",

 

[visionary]

I have been called many names, but as long as it is done with love and respect, then it is fine by me. Some how I get the feeling that God isn't so concerned with the similar variations, like accents, as some make it out to be.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.