Problems with Miracles?

[Tinker Grey]

NDEs

Demonstrate it to me. Hearsay is useless.

 

[All Becomes New]

Demonstrate it to me. Hearsay is useless.

Plenty of scholarship about it if you dig. It's not my job to "prove" it to you. If you actually care, you will look it up. Otherwise you are just believing what you want about the supernatural.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Plenty of scholarship about it if you dig. It's not my job to "prove" it to you. If you actually care, you will look it up. Otherwise you are just believing what you want about the supernatural.

Plenty of scholarship demonstrates that NDE's are just the physical phenomena of the brain shutting down. Too, a near death experience is NOT a miracle at all. The time that car almost hit me? NDE. Was it a miracle I survived? Not at all. It missed. Stuff happens. 3) The premise of my original posts in this thread is that unless you can demonstrate TO ME that there is a supernatural, all you have is hearsay; any research is just research into what other people think happens.

If you are tapped into the Holy Spirit, say, you should be able to wow me. Do it. Don't play games. Demonstrate it.

 

[All Becomes New]

Plenty of scholarship demonstrates that NDE's are just the physical phenomena of the brain shutting down. Too, a near death experience is NOT a miracle at all. The time that car almost hit me? NDE. Was it a miracle I survived? Not at all. It missed. Stuff happens. 3) The premise of my original posts in this thread is that unless you can demonstrate TO ME that there is a supernatural, all you have is hearsay; any research is just research into what other people think happens.

If you are tapped into the Holy Spirit, say, you should be able to wow me. Do it. Don't play games. Demonstrate it.

That is not the type of NDEs I am talking about. I am talking about the ones where someone is essentially brain dead and they know things that are impossible to know in that state.

I am not talking about "close calls" I am talking about someone being dead and when they come back to life they report knowing things that are impossible to know if their brain was in that state.

 

[Tinker Grey]

That is not the type of NDEs I am talking about. I am talking about the ones where someone is essentially brain dead and they know things that are impossible to know in that state.

And I told you that has been debunked.

Come on. Wow me. Do something. Maybe remote viewing. Ask the Holy Spirit my middle name. Levitate my house. Spontaneously generate another puppy for our first one to play with.

Here's the deal. No Christian (or any other theist) can demonstrate the power the spirit realm; that there even is a spirit realm; nothing -- that's my claim. Show me I'm wrong.

 

[All Becomes New]

And I told you that has been debunked.

Come on. Wow me. Do something. Maybe remote viewing. Ask the Holy Spirit my middle name. Levitate my house. Spontaneously generate another puppy for our first one to play with.

Here's the deal. No Christian (or any other theist) can demonstrate the power the spirit realm; that there even is a spirit realm; nothing -- that's my claim. Show me I'm wrong.

The pharisees also asked for "proof".

Here's something you probably don't know...

Acts 9:22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts 9:23 When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him,
Acts 9:24 but their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night in order to kill him,
Acts 9:25 but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall,2 lowering him in a basket.

And that's probably where this whole "Prove God is real" comes from.
#Themoreyouknow

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

That's not the claim the Bible makes, so you have ascribed a claim that isn't there.

I have never met a Christian that did not believe the feeding of the 5000 was not a miracle. What do you think the feeding of the 5000 was? Did food appear?

 

[Tinker Grey]

The pharisees also asked for "proof".

Here's something you probably don't know...

Acts 9:22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts 9:23 When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him,
Acts 9:24 but their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night in order to kill him,
Acts 9:25 but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall,2 lowering him in a basket.

And that's probably where this whole "Prove God is real" comes from.
#Themoreyouknow

So you can't do it. Thought so.

 

[All Becomes New]

I have never met a Christian that did not believe the feeding of the 5000 was not a miracle. What do you think the feeding of the 5000 was? Did food appear?

Where you are wrong is that you think the Bible says Jesus created the food Ex Nihilo. You've misread the text, as another user pointed out that Jesus "multiplied" the food and didn't create it out of nothing.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You could be lying about anything and everything. How do I know you are not lying? That's basically the question you are asking Jesus. It's silly to doubt people before you know they are lying. If they show they are lying, then you can assume they will lie again. But if you never see them lie, it is silly to assume they are lying.

I am not asking Jesus if he is lying. I am
Asking him to provide sufficient evidence for his extraordinary claims. My wife almost never lies. If she told me dinner just popped out of nowhere I would not believe her until she had sufficient evidence. It’s about the nature of the claim not about the trustworthiness of the person making the claim. If someone lied all the time it does not mean the next thing they say will be a lie. The evidence needs to be evaluated. With my wife I would believe that she believes it is true, they does not make it so.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Here's something you probably don't know...

Oh, and dude, I was a believer for longer than you have yet to be alive.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Where you are wrong is that you think the Bible says Jesus created the food Ex Nihilo. You've misread the text, as another user pointed out that Jesus "multiplied" the food and didn't create it out of nothing.

What is the difference? Bread does not make new bread on its own. The food was created as you say. That is the miracle. Do you deny it was a miracle?

 

[All Becomes New]

So you can't do it. Thought so.

Yeah. Well, you can't prove to me that you exist either. Same thing. You think you exist, but how do I actually know you exist? What proof can you offer me? That's the problem with proof and with atheist "lacking belief". They simply say it's "not good enough" without providing a reasonable alternative or they tie themselves in knots trying to debunk the Bible when the straightforward answer is that the Bible is just accurate in what it reports.

Atheist go so far out of their way to maintain their "lack of belief" that it's honestly super intellectually dishonest. If you have to spend so much time trying to somehow make the claims of the Bible seem to be false rather than taking it at it's straight forward meaning, I can't help you, and no one can.

Further, if atheists really do have a "lack of belief" they shouldn't care one way or another what other people believe. So there would be no reason to come on Christian forums to debate with Christians about Christianity because there's no reason to care at all what other people believe what makes them happy.

 

[All Becomes New]

Oh, and dude, I was a believer for longer than you have yet to be alive.

No, you were not.

 

[All Becomes New]

I am not asking Jesus if he is lying. I am
Asking him to provide sufficient evidence for his extraordinary claims. My wife almost never lies. If she told me dinner just popped out of nowhere I would not believe her until she had sufficient evidence. It’s about the nature of the claim not about the trustworthiness of the person making the claim. If someone lied all the time it does not mean the next thing they say will be a lie. The evidence needs to be evaluated. With my wife I would believe that she believes it is true, they does not make it so.

There is no point where the evidence will be sufficient for you with that attitude.

 

[All Becomes New]

What is the difference? Bread does not make new bread on its own. The food was created as you say. That is the miracle. Do you deny it was a miracle?

No, it's a miracle. It just means you are being sloppy with your thinking, something atheists pride themselves for.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

There is no point where the evidence will be sufficient for you with that attitude.

Typical response. If you had the evidence you would just present it. If it was convincing to me I would have to believe it. Got any?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No, it's a miracle. It just means you are being sloppy with your thinking, something atheists pride themselves for.

Where is the evidence for the miracle?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yeah. Well, you can't prove to me that you exist either. Same thing. You think you exist, but how do I actually know you exist? What proof can you offer me? That's the problem with proof and with atheist "lacking belief". They simply say it's "not good enough" without providing a reasonable alternative or they tie themselves in knots trying to debunk the Bible when the straightforward answer is that the Bible is just accurate in what it reports.

Atheist go so far out of their way to maintain their "lack of belief" that it's honestly super intellectually dishonest. If you have to spend so much time trying to somehow make the claims of the Bible seem to be false rather than taking it at it's straight forward meaning, I can't help you, and no one can.

Further, if atheists really do have a "lack of belief" they shouldn't care one way or another what other people believe. So there would be no reason to come on Christian forums to debate with Christians about Christianity because there's no reason to care at all what other people believe what makes them happy.

Of course I could prove I exist. What is this, Apologetics for Tots?

We could exchange addresses. I could (but I'm not) drive to your house and say "True Counterphobia" when you answer the door or any other key phrase that would satisfy.

Too, something is communicating with you here and now? What is it? Bot? Whatever it is, bot or not, it's me. Done.

What is this bad epistemology that believers fall back on? "You can't prove X therefore you should believe in my god that I can't prove". *Sheesh*

No, you were not.

Yup. Apologetics 101. "No True Christian".

If I wasn't a true Christian, you aren't either. If I was, look to your own defenses.

 

[All Becomes New]

Typical response. If you had the evidence you would just present it. If it was convincing to me I would have to believe it. Got any?

Where is the evidence for the miracle?

What evidence would make you believe?