Problems with Miracles?

cvanwey

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I am not sure what you are inferring by saying I need to figure out what is ACTUALLY true. I do actually try to determine what is True. I put a lot of weight on personal experience and less weight on what the experts say. Personal experience is just as valid a metric to determine what is true as far as I am concerned.

It's not this cut and dry.

- If you are a pilot, you trust your flight instruments over your own 'personal experience'.

- If you were born 5,000 years ago, you would have 'personal experience' of a flat earth.

- If you see spiders on the wall, but are going through a withdraw; and also confirm with others that there are actually no spiders on the wall, then you would not trust your own 'personal experience'.

- If you go into a cavern, and the stalactite looks like it's one one tall, but the 'expert' tells you it is instead 15 feet tall, because you have lost your perception of space, then your 'personal experience' has again failed you.

I will tell you what I have told others. Just because we do not KNOW an answer, does not mean we still cannot rule out some assertions.


A lot of people put faith in what the experts say, even sometimes to the detriment of their own experience.

I would agree. Many put 'faith' in assertions, without sufficient evidence to warrant such an assertion. Do you ever do this?

But personally, everything we come across is personal experience, whether that is an article written by a philosopher or not. And I don't mean to say I ignore the experts, but that I see what experts say as a part of my experience rather than assuming they are right because they are really smart and I am not. The way I see it is that if you can't trust your own experience, then you probably should not be trusting anyone else's either.

Please see above.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You said personal experience isn't evidence that should convince others unless I am misunderstanding things.
Generally yes, but maybe I am wrong.



I believe for more than one reason. For one, I believe the evidence provided for Christianity.
Where is this evidence?

Secondly, God has shown Himself to be real to me on many occasions. I would be lying if I said I never have doubts, but God always ends up showing me He is real.
How does He show you he is real?

You are asking because you are curious about my experience. That's different then wanting to know because it might convince you. If I'm wrong about this, then I might reconsider, but as it is, if you are just asking to try and figure out what ACTUALLY happened, then I would rather not tell you because you won't be able to figure it out because I sure haven't been able to figure it out and I have first hand experience of the occasion in mind.
OK, but if you cannot figure it out then how can you possibly know it was a miracle?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I am not sure what you are inferring by saying I need to figure out what is ACTUALLY true. I do actually try to determine what is True. I put a lot of weight on personal experience and less weight on what the experts say. Personal experience is just as valid a metric to determine what is true as far as I am concerned. A lot of people put faith in what the experts say, even sometimes to the detriment of their own experience. But personally, everything we come across is personal experience, whether that is an article written by a philosopher or not. And I don't mean to say I ignore the experts, but that I see what experts say as a part of my experience rather than assuming they are right because they are really smart and I am not. The way I see it is that if you can't trust your own experience, then you probably should not be trusting anyone else's either.
Personal experience must be supported by good evidence. I thought I saw a ghost once but without any good evidence that it was a ghost, and there has never been good evidence to support that ghosts exists, I have determined that it was unlikely an actual ghost. Personal experiences should not be believed without good evidence to back them up. The truth is that I don't know what I saw.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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The nail in the proverbial coffin, for me, was when I finally decided to read the Bible a few years ago. Two many direct contradictions within itself, as well as with later human discovery. Along with the fact that there looks to be virtually no external source corroboration to such said miracles. Aligned with also learning about how legends arise. ect ect ect... But now we are venturing off into a completely new topic :)

There are answers to the "contradictions" of the Bible just like there are atheists who try and find "contradictions" in the Bible. Miracles work a lot like the double slot experiment. You either see them or you don't. I can't square how the Apostles came up with the idea of the Holy Spirit if it's not true. What's your explanation on this?


About what exactly? That He even exists, or that He cares about you, or other?

If what I am experiencing was what I assume to be an act of God is real or a figment of my imagination. There are some things I have zero rational explanation for, but other things I have had to think about a LOT in order to get a better, but not clear picture of what happened.

You need constant re-affirmation that He is indeed real? Why is that?

Because I have doubts and I question my experiences as being real.

I did not either. Your point brings up yet another topic I would rather avoid for now. (i.e.) If you have never received the 'good news' about Christ, do you receive a "free pass"?

Fair enough. I certainly am not an expert on the subject.

- Regardless of objectivity/subjectivity, we likely agree that helpless and starving children is a very sad and real occurrence, and God can certainly do something about it. Especially when countless intercessory/petitionary prayers are done so in earnest, in His direct name.

God could take all the suffering in the entire world away and people would still manage to find arguments against the existence of God.


- God does not answer many 'basic' prayer requests. - Contrary to your assertion(s).

I agree it is a tragedy that suffering exists in this world, and that a lot of people do not get what they are praying for. What is even more absurd is that some people's biggest concern is their sick cat, which they of course pray for, and God heals the cat. But who am I to question God? His ways are higher than my ways. I have no grounds on questioning God's judgement.


- The only unforgivable sin is unbelief, love, repent, and worship. The rest is covered by grace/pardon/exception.

Would you mind rephrasing this so it is more clear what you mean?


- Believing in a ranking system suggests you may be a Catholic/Mormon/other? Are you? If not, can you please clarify?

Are you on a cell phone? I am non-denominational, it says so in my profile information.


This would mean that all whom prayed, or were prayed for, and did not receive, were not faithful enough to receive a response.

I think this sort of line goes along with some of the the "word of faith" denominations in how if God doesn't answer your prayers, you just didn't have enough faith. I don't think this accurately depicts what is in the Bible on prayer in all cases because praying in faith assumes you are praying the Will of God in confidence and not praying your own Will. If you are not praying the Will of God, then it doesn't matter how much belief you have that it should happen because if it's not God's Will for something to happen, then there's not really a whole lot anyone can do to change that.


Furthermore, I would trust you believe in intercessory prayer?

Depends on what you mean by that. Let's see a definition of intercessory prayer and I will see what I have to say about it.


If so, can you pray for others to receive the basics - (like food, clean water, and shelter)? If so, why have you not? The reason I ask why you have not, is that we have people everywhere starving.

My global prayers tend to be more oriented towards persecuted Christians in other places in the world. I try and pray the Will of God and I don't always feel like God wants me to pray for people who are starving. Perhaps I do not actually know how many people are actually starving and I should start thinking about that more.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Where is this evidence?

Minimal facts argument of the Resurrection.

How does He show you he is real?

A steady stream of "coincidences" that end up with things working out for me when I give the problem to God mostly.

OK, but if you cannot figure it out then how can you possibly know it was a miracle?

I have no rational explanation for it, but that doesn't mean I do not question it because I'm actually a pretty skeptical person.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Personal experience must be supported by good evidence. I thought I saw a ghost once but without any good evidence that it was a ghost, and there has never been good evidence to support that ghosts exists, I have determined that it was unlikely an actual ghost. Personal experiences should not be believed without good evidence to back them up. The truth is that I don't know what I saw.

This is where I would ask you what would happen to science if supernatural occurrences were taken into consideration for scientific inquiry. Pretty sure science would cease to have any sort of pragmatic utility at all if supernatural occurrences were studied at any level of depth. And science assumes you can test things in a lab in a predictable fashion and the supernatural tends to be pretty spontaneous. The right question to ask is if you believe any supernatural event has every occurred in the history of the universe.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Minimal facts argument of the Resurrection.
Which facts? There are many minimal facts arguments that I have known. Non of the arguments show good evidence that Jesus was resurrected. But without knowing what facts you are referring to I cannot comment on your argument.

A steady stream of "coincidences" that end up with things working out for me when I give the problem to God mostly.

I have no rational explanation for it, but that doesn't mean I do not question it because I'm actually a pretty skeptical person.
Believing something without a rational explanation and claiming you are skeptical are not compatible. At least with skepticism.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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This is where I would ask you what would happen to science if supernatural occurrences were taken into consideration for scientific inquiry. Pretty sure science would cease to have any sort of pragmatic utility at all if supernatural occurrences were studied at any level of depth. And science assumes you can test things in a lab in a predictable fashion and the supernatural tends to be pretty spontaneous.
If the supernatural is real then it is not supernatural in a sense. It could be studied by science as to what the source is.

The right question to ask is if you believe any supernatural event has every occurred in the history of the universe.
There is not sufficient evidence to believe that a supernatural event has ever occurred.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Which facts? There are many minimal facts arguments that I have known. Non of the arguments show good evidence that Jesus was resurrected. But without knowing what facts you are referring to I cannot comment on your argument.

The minimal facts are used to make the best reasonable explanation of what those facts suggest. Scientists do this all the time. If you already have knowledge of some of the minimal facts arguments, then it would be redundant to repeat them.

Here are some I can think of off the top of my head:

1. The empty tomb
2. The Disciples believed they had encounters with the risen Jesus
3. The embarrassing details dictated in the Gospel accounts which demonstrate a truthful narrative
4. Some of the Apostles were willing to suffer and die for believing Jesus had risen from the dead
5. James, who previously did not believe the claims of Jesus became a believer in Jesus testimony
6. Paul, who was previously a persecutor of Jesus followers became a believer in Jesus testimony

Believing something without a rational explanation and claiming you are skeptical are not compatible. At least with skepticism.

It is not reasonable to leave something without an explanation for it to not try and come up with an answer for it either. Believing something without a rational explanation is not what I am doing. I personally do not have any explanations for it, I just know it happened. I have some very very skeptical theories that might explain it, but I think it is more likely that it was a miracle.
 
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cvanwey

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I can't square how the Apostles came up with the idea of the Holy Spirit if it's not true. What's your explanation on this?


The concept of 'spirit' was around long before the Bible was in place. In many languages, 'spirit' also means - wind, breath, and/or air. It's nothing new. It's likely and/or probable the writers of the Bible borrowed from these existing concepts, which were already in circulation?


If what I am experiencing was what I assume to be an act of God is real or a figment of my imagination. There are some things I have zero rational explanation for, but other things I have had to think about a LOT in order to get a better, but not clear picture of what happened.

Have you ever heard of the term "external world skepticism?" It essentially states that there exists an infinite number of plausible source 'causes' for your experience(s). How do you know that YHWH was any of these?

Because I have doubts and I question my experiences as being real.

Sorry you battle with solipsism :) I'm sure we all do at times.

But is it really this hard and fast, or, can you compartmentalize? Meaning, the difference between knowing I'm interacting with you here in this forum, verses, YHWH/Jesus speaking to you on occasion? Do you have the same confidence/doubt in both experiences equally?


God could take all the suffering in the entire world away and people would still manage to find arguments against the existence of God.

Sure, but you still have not addressed my point.

Countless intercessory/petitionary prayers are done so in earnest, in His direct name. Many go unanswered. Is it more likely 1) there exists no intervening agent, and 'good/bad' things happen how they happen, or 2) there's an intervening agent, whom decides to ignore many of these earnest prayer requests, even though you assert God answers basic prayer requests?


I know you hate these either/or questions, but I ask them in this way to know what is MORE likely of the two {1) or 2)}? :)


I agree it is a tragedy that suffering exists in this world, and that a lot of people do not get what they are praying for. What is even more absurd is that some people's biggest concern is their sick cat, which they of course pray for, and God heals the cat. But who am I to question God? His ways are higher than my ways. I have no grounds on questioning God's judgement.

This does not address my prior question either. You assert that God takes care of 'basic' prayers. But often times, He appears not to. I again ask, which is more likely, between the either/or proposition above {1) or 2)}?

Would you mind rephrasing this so it is more clear what you mean?

I've been rephrasing it many times now. Take your pick.

Are you on a cell phone? I am non-denominational, it says so in my profile information.

So was I. But many non-denoms have conflicting beliefs. Just like Catholics, Mormons, etc.. You believe in a tier system, okay... This makes things even more convoluted for you....?.?.?


I think this sort of line goes along with some of the the "word of faith" denominations in how if God doesn't answer your prayers, you just didn't have enough faith. I don't think this accurately depicts what is in the Bible on prayer in all cases because praying in faith assumes you are praying the Will of God in confidence and not praying your own Will. If you are not praying the Will of God, then it doesn't matter how much belief you have that it should happen because if it's not God's Will for something to happen, then there's not really a whole lot anyone can do to change that.

You claim you have complete faith. Does He always answer your basic prayers? If not, then is it possible you are instead accepting the hits and ignoring the misses?

Depends on what you mean by that. Let's see a definition of intercessory prayer and I will see what I have to say about it.

My global prayers tend to be more oriented towards persecuted Christians in other places in the world. I try and pray the Will of God and I don't always feel like God wants me to pray for people who are starving. Perhaps I do not actually know how many people are actually starving and I should start thinking about that more.


You can use virtually any definition you'd like. It's not that involved. Do you ever pray for others? I'd imagine you do and/or have.

Your response sounds a little suspicious? When you pray for others, does God always answer your intercessory prayer requests? Please remember, you are completely devout and faithful.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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The minimal facts are used to make the best reasonable explanation of what those facts suggest. Scientists do this all the time. If you already have knowledge of some of the minimal facts arguments, then it would be redundant to repeat them.
No, because there are many different versions of this argument. I want to know your version.

Here are some I can think of off the top of my head:

1. The empty tomb
Do you have any extrabiblical sources for this?
2. The Disciples believed they had encounters with the risen Jesus
So what? People believe they have had encounters with aliens, big foot, Elvis in 1995 etc.
3. The embarrassing details dictated in the Gospel accounts which demonstrate a truthful narrative
Why is that the only explanation?
4. Some of the Apostles were willing to suffer and die for believing Jesus had risen from the dead
Of course they believed it was true. That is a claim not evidence.
5. James, who previously did not believe the claims of Jesus became a believer in Jesus testimony
A persons belief is not evidence, it is the claim.
6. Paul, who was previously a persecutor of Jesus followers became a believer in Jesus testimony
Again a persons belief is the claim not the evidence.

A collection of bad evidence does not make it good evidence.

It is not reasonable to leave something without an explanation for it to not try and come up with an answer for it either. Believing something without a rational explanation is not what I am doing. I personally do not have any explanations for it, I just know it happened. I have some very very skeptical theories that might explain it, but I think it is more likely that it was a miracle.
I believe that you believe it happened. I am not convinced by your evidence so far.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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God could take all the suffering in the entire world away and people would still manage to find arguments against the existence of God.
ok, but suffering would be gone. There is no suffering in heaven and people are happy there, why not here on earth?
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Do you have any extrabiblical sources for this?

Yes, you can go to Israel right now and visit the tomb that Jesus was buried in. The way I have heard this said is something like, "Are people in New York going to just magically 'forget' about 9/11? Or is it more reasonable that as long as there are people living in New York that people will remember about 9/11?" Same is true for the Christians who live in Israel who know where one of the most important events from their perspective resides. Christians who live in Israel are not going to 'forget' where Jesus was buried. And guess what? The tomb is empty there, no Jesus found there.

So what? People believe they have had encounters with aliens, big foot, Elvis in 1995 etc.

And I think that shows something happened to those people. You then have to decide what it was that happened to them. I don't know what exactly happened to them except to say something certainly happened to them.

Why is that the only explanation?

It's evidence that the people who wrote the Bible were consistently honest in their testimony. That is evidence that the Bible is true.

Of course they believed it was true. That is a claim not evidence.

It's evidence because he changed his belief with no personal gain attached, which means he changed his belief because he thought it was true. When people change their belief on something for no personal gain attached, it's evidence that what they changed their belief to is true, especially when it comes at a cost to the person. If you want to say this isn't evidence of it being true, then you are going to have to say what it is actually evidence of.

A persons belief is not evidence, it is the claim.
Again a persons belief is the claim not the evidence.

It's not the belief itself that is the claim. It's the evidence that he changed his mind for no reason other than that he believed it was true at a personal cost to him.

A collection of bad evidence does not make it good evidence.

What do you mean by "bad" evidence? These are things that pretty much any serious scholar agrees with. That hardly makes it "bad" evidence. In fact, it makes it "Good" evidence. You can disagree where the evidence leads, but then you have to provide an alternative instead of just hand waving the whole thing.

I believe that you believe it happened. I am not convinced by your evidence so far.

I'm not actually trying to convince you of my experience. I've just talked about it, I haven't actually made a point about it at all.

Here's something for you to read:

Dialog: Experiences of the Risen Jesus
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Yes, you can go to Israel right now and visit the tomb that Jesus was buried in. The way I have heard this said is something like, "Are people in New York going to just magically 'forget' about 9/11? Or is it more reasonable that as long as there are people living in New York that people will remember about 9/11?" Same is true for the Christians who live in Israel who know where one of the most important events from their perspective resides. Christians who live in Israel are not going to 'forget' where Jesus was buried. And guess what? The tomb is empty there, no Jesus found there.
Which one is the actual tomb? There are at least three locations that claim it is the tomb Jesus was buried in. How have you determined which one it was?



And I think that shows something happened to those people. You then have to decide what it was that happened to them. I don't know what exactly happened to them except to say something certainly happened to them.
I agree something happened to them. They had a real experience. Until they supply good evidence I cannot conclude it was aliens, bigfoot or Elvis. I stick with I don't know.



It's evidence that the people who wrote the Bible were consistently honest in their testimony. That is evidence that the Bible is true.
You don't know if they were honest or not.



It's evidence because he changed his belief with no personal gain attached, which means he changed his belief because he thought it was true. When people change their belief on something for no personal gain attached, it's evidence that what they changed their belief to is true, especially when it comes at a cost to the person. If you want to say this isn't evidence of it being true, then you are going to have to say what it is actually evidence of.
People can change their belief, even beliefs that are detrimental to themselves. This does not mean what they believe is true. That requires good evidence. People will die for a belief does not mean it is a true belief. Muslims die for their God and Christian's die for their God. How do you determine which is correct?



It's not the belief itself that is the claim. It's the evidence that he changed his mind for no reason other than that he believed it was true at a personal cost to him.
Yes, he changed his mind because he believed something. That has no bearing if his new belief is actually true.



What do you mean by "bad" evidence? These are things that pretty much any serious scholar agrees with. That hardly makes it "bad" evidence. In fact, it makes it "Good" evidence. You can disagree where the evidence leads, but then you have to provide an alternative instead of just hand waving the whole thing.
I don't have to provide alternate explanation. I am not claiming anything. I gave you the reasons I think they are bad evidences.



I'm not actually trying to convince you of my experience. I've just talked about it, I haven't actually made a point about it at all.

Here's something for you to read:

Dialog: Experiences of the Risen Jesus
All this says is that they believed Jesus was resurrected. That is not evidence, it is a claim. It actually says this:

Virtually no critical scholar questions that the disciples’ convictions regarding the risen Jesus caused their radical transformation, even being willing to die for their beliefs. Their change does not evidence the resurrection appearances per se, but it is a clear indication that the disciples at least thought that they had experienced the risen Jesus.[24] Alternatives must account for this belief.

This actually supports what I am saying.
 
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Yes, you can go to Israel right now and visit the tomb that Jesus was buried in.
I remember seeing a video of Richard Dawkins doing just that. "This is the tomb that Jesus was buried," he was told by the guide. "How do you know that?" he answered. "Because the knowledge has been passed down to us," is (something like) the reply. "So it's just hearsay?" says Dawkins.
And of course it is. Seriously, if you are saying things like this then you are showing yourself to be credulous and/or to have very little knowledge about either psychology or history.
The way I have heard this said is something like, "Are people in New York going to just magically 'forget' about 9/11? Or is it more reasonable that as long as there are people living in New York that people will remember about 9/11?"
9/11 happened very recently, in an age in which events are recorded and disseminated with breathtaking clarity and in enormous numbers. The events that the Bible records happened in a gullible society absolutely brimming over with supernatural events and competing religions, and the stories about Jesus were not actually written down until decades after his death. In short, sre you serious? This is a terrible comparison.
Christians who live in Israel are not going to 'forget' where Jesus was buried. And guess what? The tomb is empty there, no Jesus found there.
Hey, I've got proof that the Invisible Man visited me! I even have photographic evidence. Take a look at my photo and you'll see him, standing next to me. And sure enough, he's invisible!
And I think that shows something happened to those people. You then have to decide what it was that happened to them. I don't know what exactly happened to them except to say something certainly happened to them.
This is an incredibly gullible thing to say. Yes, something certainly did happen to them. They had a dream. Or a hallucination. Or made it up and convinced themselves. Or were misreported. Or just flat-out lied.
It's evidence because he changed his belief with no personal gain attached, which means he changed his belief because he thought it was true. When people change their belief on something for no personal gain attached, it's evidence that what they changed their belief to is true, especially when it comes at a cost to the person. If you want to say this isn't evidence of it being true, then you are going to have to say what it is actually evidence of.
There are huge benefits to changing your religious beliefs. It makes you feel better. You get the adoration of thousands. You become a part of something bigger than yourself. You can change the world. Possibly you really believe in God and convince yourself that it is right to lie to further the greater good.

Here's the thing. Apparently your approach to religious claims is, "Someone said it, so it must be true." That sets an incredibly low standard for evidence that any other religious claim can also vault over. You can't accept one ridiculously weak religious claim and deny another, but that is exactly what you do.

Seriously, I'll say it again: do more research. At this point, you simply do not seem up to the challenges that an apologist must face.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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None of this is worth addressing. IDK why I am wasting my time with this.

I remember seeing a video of Richard Dawkins doing just that. "This is the tomb that Jesus was buried," he was told by the guide. "How do you know that?" he answered. "Because the knowledge has been passed down to us," is (something like) the reply. "So it's just hearsay?" says Dawkins.
And of course it is. Seriously, if you are saying things like this then you are showing yourself to be credulous and/or to have very little knowledge about either psychology or history.

I am aware of this. Guess what? It doesn't change my belief in God. Now what?

9/11 happened very recently, in an age in which events are recorded and disseminated with breathtaking clarity and in enormous numbers. The events that the Bible records happened in a gullible society absolutely brimming over with supernatural events and competing religions, and the stories about Jesus were not actually written down until decades after his death. In short, sre you serious? This is a terrible comparison.

Read my signature.

Hey, I've got proof that the Invisible Man visited me! I even have photographic evidence. Take a look at my photo and you'll see him, standing next to me. And sure enough, he's invisible!

Do you have a point, or do you just want to hear yourself talk?

This is an incredibly gullible thing to say. Yes, something certainly did happen to them. They had a dream. Or a hallucination. Or made it up and convinced themselves. Or were misreported. Or just flat-out lied.

Unfortunately for you, the above explanations do no fit for every instance of the supernatural. And if someone is lying about something, then nothing happened to them at all.

There are huge benefits to changing your religious beliefs. It makes you feel better. You get the adoration of thousands. You become a part of something bigger than yourself. You can change the world. Possibly you really believe in God and convince yourself that it is right to lie to further the greater good.

And none of these things happened for the Apostles, who were basically putting themselves directly into danger to share their belief with people.

Here's the thing. Apparently your approach to religious claims is, "Someone said it, so it must be true." That sets an incredibly low standard for evidence that any other religious claim can also vault over. You can't accept one ridiculously weak religious claim and deny another, but that is exactly what you do.

My approach to religious claims is that there is some truth to them. And with Christianity, we have people passing on more or less the SAME information from one person to another since Christ ascended.

Seriously, I'll say it again: do more research. At this point, you simply do not seem up to the challenges that an apologist must face.

Oh, it's just a matter of research to become an atheist in your opinion? This doesn't seem to match the facts of the world.
 
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Carbon

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To take a simple example, when Darwin was observing birds in Chile and the Galapagos, he was collecting evidence which he synthesized into his theory about descent. Proportional evidence led to his hypothesis and caused him to write a book that changed the way scientists think about variation among and between species. Without that evidence there would be no theory. So the claim that science is about falsification and not verification is quite strange. Falsification always presupposes verification.

It would be hard for me to imagine a better description of what Darwin did not do. Every step of Darwin’s process was marked by conjecture and error corrections, which is the opposite of evidence just handing you a theory to run with.

The empiricist bed time story doesn’t work on its face, even if we didn’t know the details of Darwin’s journey. The evidence for natural selection was "observed" by anatomically modern humans for hundreds of thousands of years. Yet it wasn’t until 1838 that the idea was created and, the kicker, was published semi-independently by 2 different men at the same time in 1858. If the evidence “told” Darwin the theory of natural selection, why didn’t the evidence tell someone else twenty thousand years prior? If ever there was a good example of how layers upon layers of explanation and slow philosophical progress over thousands of years can build to a new way of interpreting the same old drab evidence that was always available to everyone, the theory of evolution by natural selection is it.

Even now, “evidence” is raining down upon your head and mine that, if we only knew how to interpret it, would win us a Noble prize.

Would there have been a theory without the evidence? Of course not, evidence plays a pivotal role. But given that evidence for natural selection was available to every human ever, it would be debaucherous to claim the evidence led to the theory. It is our guesswork that even tells us which evidence to look for in the first place.

As it happens we do have the details of Darwin’s journey, and not only did he not observe natural selection (this much is obvious), he did not even “observe” his own evidence that ruled out natural selection’s rivals. And I don’t mean in the technical sense described above that what we see with our eyes is actually a very flawed image created by the brain, thus is never directly observed, though that is true as well. I mean Darwin *did not know what he observed* until friends back in England helped him understand. He confused finches for grosbeaks. He confused other finches for blackbirds. He mixed up species for varieties in rheas and mockingbirds, and stumbled through a myriad of other misconceptions, bad guesses, and dead ends until he finally arrived at a good idea.

That theory of natural selection is the combined product of fallible human creative thought, building more or less on contributions from John Gould, Richard Owen, Lamark, Cuvier, and Malthus. Not to mention other concepts on which the theory depends; such as cause and effect, heredity, natural law, and deep geological time. And not one of these concepts is observed as is. Humans had to create the ideas, then test them against the evidence. Conjecture and refutation bruh.
 
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