Problems with Miracles?

TLK Valentine

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Can you define what a miracle is?

How do you tell the difference between a miracle and advanced technology or physics we don't know about yet? How do you verify they are from a god?

I've always defined "miracle" as "the overt suspension of natural laws by the divine or agent of the divine in order to achieve a divine purpose."

As for telling the difference between "miracle" and advanced technology, you have a good point. After all, Clarke said, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." So you'd have to look to the source -- anything coming from a god (or the God, if you prefer) is a bona fide miracle... how can you tell? I suppose that's a matter of faith.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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We are entering the section of our apologetics course where we are talking about miracles - God acting specially in the world. Are miracles inherently implausible? Is there some problem with the idea of miracles? What's the problem with miracles?

Verification
 
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Carbon

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You must believe they are possible before you can be convinced that they happen. It would be impossible to "demonstrate the supernatural" to a person who is not open to the possibility of miracles or the supernatural.

If one is to come to belief in the supernatural via miracles then the logical sequence would be:

Openness to miracles -> Belief in a particular miracle -> Belief in the supernatural
This position (link) is not openness, and that is reflected by this post (link).


I am actually sympathetic to the supernaturalist complaint that naturalists would never, even in principle, accept any evidence for miracles. I probably plead guilty to this charge because I doubt I would ever interpret any physical phenomenon, no matter how unusual or contrary to known physical laws, as evidence of the supernatural or that a miracle happened. As much as an apologist may want to spring on that last statement and declare victory as if I have confessed something incriminating, their case is not won. To the contrary my reasons for dismissing “evidence for the supernatural” are because the defense of miracles is even worse than is often supposed.

Supernaturalists and naturalists will disagree on whether miracles *have* happened, but they often agree on all/most of these 4 assumptions:

  1. Science works by finding evidence for hypotheses
  2. Supernatural causes are hypothetically observable though not testable
  3. An event that is sufficiently improbable or clearly contrary to known natural laws would count as evidence of a non-natural (supernatural) cause, because all natural hypotheses (and their entailed cause) have been ruled out
  4. There are 2 logically possible causes for any event, broadly speaking: natural or supernatural

But all 4 of those assumptions above are false. Showing why they are false requires some explanation but suffice to say for now that I can sympathize with the exasperated supernaturalist. And no, I am not going in for the instrumentalist gambit.
 
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zippy2006

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I am actually sympathetic to the supernaturalist complaint that naturalists would never, even in principle, accept any evidence for miracles.

Well, I saw an actual instance of it in this thread, which is why I took that line. I don't think all naturalists fit that mold, though many probably do.

I probably plead guilty to this charge because I doubt I would ever interpret any physical phenomenon, no matter how unusual or contrary to known physical laws, as evidence of the supernatural or that a miracle happened.

I understand this sentiment, but I think it also depends on circumstances, such as whether a request was made or whether there is a discernable pattern covering repeated instances.

Supernaturalists and naturalists will disagree on whether miracles *have* happened, but they often agree on all/most of these 4 assumptions:

  1. Science works by finding evidence for hypotheses
  2. Supernatural causes are hypothetically observable though not testable
  3. An event that is sufficiently improbable or clearly contrary to known natural laws would count as evidence of a non-natural (supernatural) cause, because all natural hypotheses (and their entailed cause) have been ruled out
  4. There are 2 logically possible causes for any event, broadly speaking: natural or supernatural

I think these premises are fine, except I would substitute "effects" for "causes" in (2).

But all 4 of those assumptions above are false. Showing why they are false requires some explanation but suffice to say for now that I can sympathize with the exasperated supernaturalist. And no, I am not going in for the instrumentalist gambit.

Okay.
 
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Carbon

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Well, I saw an actual instance of it in this thread, which is why I took that line. I don't think all naturalists fit that mold, though, many probably do.



I understand this sentiment, but I think it also depends on circumstances, such as whether a request was made or whether there is a discernable pattern covering repeated instances.



I think these premises are fine, except I would substitute "effects" for "causes" in (2).



Okay.

Right, I prefer to go a little more hard in the paint.

Let's say you kneel down and ask God to cure every cancer patient on the planet tonight 9pm GMT, and it works. Then every day you repeat the same prayer for a different disease, and every night it works. Let's ignore that this scenario could be poked with a thousand pedantic holes, like how we validate each cure and that epidemiology is a spectrum not a discrete on/off, etc. The point I want to make is this. To assume these events qualify as "evidence of the supernatural" is to assume all 4 of those premises above are true, but we shouldn't assume this.

Science doesn't work by finding evidence *for* anything. Supernatural explanations are testable (like the healing prayer example). For unusual events we can never rule out superior technology or the need to modify our understanding of physical laws. And the causal onion may be infinitely layered, no need to stop at a false dichotomy natural/supernatural -- what about super-supernatural, or sub-natural.

You're in very good company granting those 4 premises but I consider them awful misconceptions, and weak sauce.

I'm borrowing from Popper here obviously, and stealing from David Deutsch.
 
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zippy2006

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Right, I prefer to go a little more hard in the paint.

Let's say you kneel down and ask God to cure every cancer patient on the planet tonight 9pm GMT, and it works. Then every day you repeat the same prayer for a different disease, and every night it works. Let's ignore that this scenario could be poked with a thousand pedantic holes, like how we validate each cure and that epidemiology is a spectrum not a discrete on/off, etc. The point I want to make is this. To assume these events qualify as "evidence of the supernatural" is to assume all 4 of those premises above are true, but we shouldn't assume this.

Of course I disagree, but you're attacking universally held premises, so let's see how you do that...

Science doesn't work by finding evidence *for* anything. Supernatural explanations are testable (like the healing prayer example). For unusual events we can never rule out superior technology or the need to modify our understanding of physical laws. And the causal onion may be infinitely layered, no need to stop at a false dichotomy natural/supernatural -- what about super-supernatural, or sub-natural.

You're in very good company granting those 4 premises but I consider them awful misconceptions, and weak sauce.

But you're literally attempting to dispel four widely-held and established premises with four sentences. I don't feel as if "weak sauce" and "going hard in the paint" are anywhere near applicable at this point. :D

Let's just take one of the premises. How does science work, if not by finding evidence for hypotheses? What alternative are you attempting to promote?


Now, I don't think anyone really denies that science and the supernatural work a bit differently than a surface-level appraisal indicates, but that is so with all things. For example, De Lubac's famous Surnaturel interjection questioned a classically layered account of the natural/supernatural interaction, and did so based on old (Medieval) texts. Yet just because we move beyond a surface-level concept does not mean that the distinction between nature and grace (or the supernatural) is fundamentally untenable...

Even when the Vatican declares a miracle, they do so only in a contingent way on the basis of the current scientific understanding of nature (for there is no other!). It is thus a provisional declaration, in a sense, and cannot be infallible. Just because we can't anticipate what science will discover in 1,000 years does not mean we have no business hypothesizing about the supernatural. Oftentimes notions of the supernatural and notions of extraterrestrial life run parallel, in which case we have scientists themselves positing life forms that have moved far beyond our own understanding of nature, and are able to do things that we believe to be impossible.
 
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Matt5

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How do you verify they are from a god?

Isn't that the problem atheists have? Often atheists say that they'll believe in god when he comes down to them and does some miracles in front of them. But how do they know that's really god? Maybe it's somebody else.

In Revelation we see someone called the false prophet who can do miracles. He does the miracles in order to trick people. Islamic prophecy even gives us the name of the false prophet - Jesus. This Jesus is Muslim, and he tricks the people into joining Islam. It's either join Islam or death. Christians are supposed to choose death. Apparently, half the Christians will join Islam.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Isn't that the problem atheists have? Often atheists say that they'll believe in god when he comes down to them and does some miracles in front of them. But how do they know that's really god? Maybe it's somebody else.
This is a problem everyone has, not just atheists.

In Revelation we see someone called the false prophet who can do miracles. He does the miracles in order to trick people. Islamic prophecy even gives us the name of the false prophet - Jesus. This Jesus is Muslim, and he tricks the people into joining Islam. It's either join Islam or death. Christians are supposed to choose death. Apparently, half the Christians will join Islam.
So why do some Christians reference miracles as a reason for why they believe?
 
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Matt5

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So why do some Christians reference miracles as a reason for why they believe?

Miracles ultimately come from God. In the case I mentioned, the Muslim Jesus is given authority to do miracles by God even though this Muslim Jesus is a bad guy. It's a test to separate the wheat from the chaff.
 
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Carbon

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Vatican miracle claims are like the US national debt. You can call them "always contingent on future scientific discovery" but that's just fancy speak for "they are writing IOUs that will never cash out". This god of the gaps placeholder gambit has been played for centuries though. It isn't losing popularity and I doubt it ever will because the more we know, the more we know we don't know. Miracle claims are always the first to pitch a tent over the boundary line of our knowledge and ignorance. Until science pushes them further and further out into the endless ignorance frontier. Miracle claims are always possible, never necessary.

But you're literally attempting to dispel four widely-held and established premises with four sentences.

This quote should probably go in my signature, it really is too good.

Now, to say that Science proceeds by finding evidence for hypotheses? Well this premise is just rude. A meme that infects our discourse year after year as if Karl Popper never existed. Science works by generating experimental evidence against things, not for things. Falsification not verification.

  1. Humans are fallible. Always have been, always will be, even after the singularity and we shuffle off this mortal coil.
  2. We do not directly observe anything. What you see/hear/touch is an imperfect model emerging from electrical signals in the brain.
  3. Data does not interpret itself. All observation is "theory-laden".
  4. Knowledge cannot come from revelation, observation, induction (there is no such thing), verification, feelings, innate beliefs, or even pure logic. These all assume some epistemological bedrock that is essentially infallible. There is no bedrock.
  5. Knowledge can only progress by guesswork and error correction, what Popper calls conjecture and refutation. Again, Falsification not Verification. Note the similarity to evolution by natural selection.
  6. Even our best theories are filled with misconceptions. There is no escape from our ever present fallibility.
  7. But by correcting some of our misconceptions we can make progress. We can become “Less Wrong”.
  8. How do we correct our errors? For Popper the refutation step involves testing competing theories’ against each other. Whatever survives is our best current explanation, until it isn’t.

David Deutsch’s contributions are several. First to notice that our constant fallibility ironically entails the potential for infinite progress. Anything that isn’t prohibited by the laws of nature is possible given the right knowledge. Second to show that explanation precedes prediction and experiment, and offer a criterion for sifting “good” explanations from “bad” ones. Good explanations must be hard-to-vary, easy-to-vary explanations are Bad. And Bad explanations can be ruled out before even testing. Some miracle claims are actually testable (Premise 2 is false), but can be ruled out because they are easily variable.

Where I differ from Popper and Deutsch is that unknown-knowns play a bigger role that either of them give credit to.

So there’s a rough map of the terrain. Do I expect any of these ideas to persuade you that Premise 1 is false? Of course not, only a fool would enter a public forum expecting to persuade anyone of anything by reason. But if you spot any glaring errors in my very fallible guesswork, feel free to offer a refutation. And maybe we will make some progress.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Miracles ultimately come from God. In the case I mentioned, the Muslim Jesus is given authority to do miracles by God even though this Muslim Jesus is a bad guy. It's a test to separate the wheat from the chaff.
That is a terrible test.
 
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zippy2006

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Vatican miracle claims are like the US national debt. You can call them "always contingent on future scientific discovery" but that's just fancy speak for "they are writing IOUs that will never cash out". This god of the gaps placeholder gambit has been played for centuries though. It isn't losing popularity and I doubt it ever will because the more we know, the more we know we don't know. Miracle claims are always the first to pitch a tent over the boundary line of our knowledge and ignorance. Until science pushes them further and further out into the endless ignorance frontier. Miracle claims are always possible, never necessary.

It has always been acknowledged that there are different kinds of miracles. Some are fully impossible on naturalism, whereas others (most) are a kind of drawing out beyond the limits of natural science. This doesn't mean that the latter aren't miracles. For example, if a holy person heals someone of cancer, and science later discovers how to fight cancer with drugs and radiation, it doesn't follow that the healing was not miraculous. The mode of miracles and the mode of science are usually legitimately different, even when they achieve the same end.

This quote should probably go in my signature, it really is too good.

Haha

Now, to say that Science proceeds by finding evidence for hypotheses? Well this premise is just rude. A meme that infects our discourse year after year as if Karl Popper never existed. Science works by generating experimental evidence against things, not for things. Falsification not verification.

I have not read Deutsch but I have read a small bit of Popper. I think your claim here is just mistaken. Even if we want to say that long-term scientific progress proceeds by way of falsification, theories are still proposed on the basis of evidence (Christopher Southgate gives some minor arguments on the importance of a more robust scientific imagination that synthesizes evidence and produces higher-quality theories in his book on Glory).

To take a simple example, when Darwin was observing birds in Chile and the Galapagos, he was collecting evidence which he synthesized into his theory about descent. Proportional evidence led to his hypothesis and caused him to write a book that changed the way scientists think about variation among and between species. Without that evidence there would be no theory. So the claim that science is about falsification and not verification is quite strange. Falsification always presupposes verification.

  1. Humans are fallible. Always have been, always will be, even after the singularity and we shuffle off this mortal coil.
  2. We do not directly observe anything. What you see/hear/touch is an imperfect model emerging from electrical signals in the brain.
  3. Data does not interpret itself. All observation is "theory-laden".
  4. Knowledge cannot come from revelation, observation, induction (there is no such thing), verification, feelings, innate beliefs, or even pure logic. These all assume some epistemological bedrock that is essentially infallible. There is no bedrock.
  5. Knowledge can only progress by guesswork and error correction, what Popper calls conjecture and refutation. Again, Falsification not Verification. Note the similarity to evolution by natural selection.
  6. Even our best theories are filled with misconceptions. There is no escape from our ever present fallibility.
  7. But by correcting some of our misconceptions we can make progress. We can become “Less Wrong”.
  8. How do we correct our errors? For Popper the refutation step involves testing competing theories’ against each other. Whatever survives is our best current explanation, until it isn’t.

I could probably sign on to 1, 3, 6, 7, and 8. 5 is a common modern misunderstanding of knowledge. The others do not hold much weight in my opinion (2 and 4).

David Deutsch’s contributions are several. First to notice that our constant fallibility ironically entails the potential for infinite progress. Anything that isn’t prohibited by the laws of nature is possible given the right knowledge. Second to show that explanation precedes prediction and experiment, and offer a criterion for sifting “good” explanations from “bad” ones. Good explanations must be hard-to-vary, easy-to-vary explanations are Bad. And Bad explanations can be ruled out before even testing. Some miracle claims are actually testable (Premise 2 is false), but can be ruled out because they are easily variable.

What do "easy-to-vary" and "hard-to-vary" mean, and what makes them good or bad? Is it just to say that more generalized theories are more useful?

Where I differ from Popper and Deutsch is that unknown-knowns play a bigger role that either of them give credit to.

I have heard the term used in different contexts, such as economics and politics. What do you mean by "unknown-knowns"?

So there’s a rough map of the terrain. Do I expect any of these ideas to persuade you that Premise 1 is false? Of course not, only a fool would enter a public forum expecting to persuade anyone of anything by reason. But if you spot any glaring errors in my very fallible guesswork, feel free to offer a refutation. And maybe we will make some progress.

Fair enough.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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My position is that until someone demonstrates that there is something that is supernatural or that there is a spiritual realm, any discussion of miracles is moot. Any explanation, including the authors knowing lied (I don't think that's the case), is more plausible than that any of it happened.

NDEs
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Lying about what?

You could be lying about anything and everything. How do I know you are not lying? That's basically the question you are asking Jesus. It's silly to doubt people before you know they are lying. If they show they are lying, then you can assume they will lie again. But if you never see them lie, it is silly to assume they are lying.
 
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I don’t need one. I am not making a claim. I am not convinced that food appearing out of nothing is a miracle unless good evidence is provided.

That's not the claim the Bible makes, so you have ascribed a claim that isn't there.
 
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