Problems with Miracles?

Clizby WampusCat

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You're asking me to speculate? Can't do. The definition of the word is what it is.
I am not. I am asking the opposite. Unless you have convincing evidence for a claim you should not believe it. How could you know there is no other explanation for a potential supernatural event? Unless you have good evidence it is supernatural you should just say I don't know.
 
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ChetSinger

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I am not. I am asking the opposite. Unless you have convincing evidence for a claim you should not believe it. How could you know there is no other explanation for a potential supernatural event? Unless you have good evidence it is supernatural you should just say I don't know.
I'll cross that bridge when I see a miracle occur before me.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I'll cross that bridge when I see a miracle occur before me.
That’s not a good time to determine what is and what is not good evidence. Thinking about it beforehand will help you determine truth if the situation happens.
 
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Tree of Life

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That’s not a good time to determine what is and what is not good evidence. Thinking about it beforehand will help you determine truth if the situation happens.

You have yet to determine what is good evidence for God's existence.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You have yet to determine what is good evidence for God's existence.
I don't know. All I can say is that all the evidence I have examined so far is not sufficient. You are making a claim god exists, provide that evidence and I will evaluate it.
 
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Tree of Life

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I don't know. All I can say is that all the evidence I have examined so far is not sufficient. You are making a claim god exists, provide that evidence and I will evaluate it.
But you've said yourself that you ought to think about the issue beforehand so that you can be in a good position to evaluate evidence.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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But you've said yourself that you ought to think about the issue beforehand so that you can be in a good position to evaluate evidence.
I have. And part of that thinking is that I cannot know all the evidence that is out there to evaluate. There could be evidence that I don't know about that would convince me. If I say I will only be convinced by X yet Y is out there that would convince me then I have thwarted myself in finding truth. No one knows what will convince them of anything until they are convinced. The best way to find truth is to not have expectations of what will convince me but to have standards to evaluate evidence as presented. So, do you have any evidence for the existence of god that I can evaluate?
 
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Tree of Life

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I have. And part of that thinking is that I cannot know all the evidence that is out there to evaluate. There could be evidence that I don't know about that would convince me. If I say I will only be convinced by X yet Y is out there that would convince me then I have thwarted myself in finding truth. No one knows what will convince them of anything until they are convinced. The best way to find truth is to not have expectations of what will convince me but to have standards to evaluate evidence as presented. So, do you have any evidence for the existence of god that I can evaluate?

If you say that X evidence would convince you, you are not saying that only X evidence would convince you. If X evidence would convince you, it's also possible that Y evidence (which you formerly had not considered) would also convince you.

But you have failed to even specify X.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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If you say that X evidence would convince you, you are not saying that only X evidence would convince you. If X evidence would convince you, it's also possible that Y evidence (which you formerly had not considered) would also convince you.

But you have failed to even specify X.
And I won't and don't need to. That does not stop me from seeking evidence. But as I have said no one know what evidence will convince them until they are convinced of a claim. What if I said evidence X would convince me then it is provided to me and I am not convinced by it? It is best to seek and evaluate evidence to see if it is convincing or not. So what evidence do you have that we can talk about? Or more on topic, why has God not convinced me yet?
 
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Tree of Life

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What if I said evidence X would convince me then it is provided to me and I am not convinced by it?

Then you could humbly retract your statement. Not the end of the world.

Or more on topic, why has God not convinced me yet?
Maybe because there is no convincing you? Or maybe because the problem is not evidential in nature?
 
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Tree of Life

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Let's think about Big Foot, for example. What evidence would I need in order to be convinced that there is such a creature as Big Foot?

I might be satisfied with any of the following:

1. Multiple eye witness testimonies from people that I know and trust.
2. High quality video footage that I know has not been doctored.
3. A personal encounter with Big Foot.
4. Good forensic data of Big Foot's existence such as unique DNA, footprints, Big Foot's dwelling place, or perhaps even the remains of a dead Big Foot creature.

There might even be other evidence that I've not yet considered that could also be convincing.

See? It's not difficult to imagine what kinds of evidence might be convincing. Why can you not produce a similar list for the existence of God?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Then you could humbly retract your statement. Not the end of the world.
It gains me nothing. What good is it to speculate on what would convince me when I don't know what would and it doe snot advance me at all toward determining what is true.


Maybe because there is no convincing you? Or maybe because the problem is not evidential in nature?
That is the exact problem. Provide sufficient evidence and I will have no choice but to believe. I want to know what is true and what is false. If a god exists I want to know.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Let's think about Big Foot, for example. What evidence would I need in order to be convinced that there is such a creature as Big Foot?

I might be satisfied with any of the following:

1. Multiple eye witness testimonies from people that I know and trust.
2. High quality video footage that I know has not been doctored.
3. A personal encounter with Big Foot.
4. Good forensic data of Big Foot's existence such as unique DNA, footprints, Big Foot's dwelling place, or perhaps even the remains of a dead Big Foot creature.

There might even be other evidence that I've not yet considered that could also be convincing.

See? It's not difficult to imagine what kinds of evidence might be convincing. Why can you not produce a similar list for the existence of God?
It's not that I can't it's that I won't. I think as I have explained earlier it does not lead me toward a reliable path to truth. Those evidences 1-4 might convince me. If I am provided with those then I will evaluate them to see if I am convinced.

This is all irrelevant to the discussion of the topic though. If God wants me to knw He exists and He does exist then why am I not convinced? He would know what would convince me no matter if I wanted to be convinced or not. We do not choose what we believe. I cannot choose to believe my wife's name is Molly or that my wife does not exist etc.
 
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cvanwey

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Let's think about Big Foot, for example. What evidence would I need in order to be convinced that there is such a creature as Big Foot?

I might be satisfied with any of the following:

1. Multiple eye witness testimonies from people that I know and trust.
2. High quality video footage that I know has not been doctored.
3. A personal encounter with Big Foot.
4. Good forensic data of Big Foot's existence such as unique DNA, footprints, Big Foot's dwelling place, or perhaps even the remains of a dead Big Foot creature.

There might even be other evidence that I've not yet considered that could also be convincing.

See? It's not difficult to imagine what kinds of evidence might be convincing. Why can you not produce a similar list for the existence of God?

I'll give it a shot....

Let's think about the claims of a resurrection, for example, since your concern is directly about 'miracles.'. As Scripture states...
"and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."

- Any/all historical reports have to be acknowledged as fallible.
- Reported sources, which stem from a particular bias - (politically or socially), tend to lend less plausible 'objective' credibility.
- Reported events, which defy the laws of physics, tend to lend less plausible credibility.
- Hearsay is usually less reliable than first hand reports.
- Such events supported by relevant concrete relics add to the possible veracity...
- Claimed events are independently corroborated, via eyewitness attestation.
- Eyewitness attestations are reported contemporarily.
- Original source documents are preserved, where applicable.
- All accounts of the same claimed event, are consistent, and later accounts of the same claimed event do not look to demonstrate additional embellishment(s) or alterations.

*****************

Now I ask you, is it really 'wise' or 'logical' to believe Jesus rose from the dead? It's a yes or no question.
 
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Let's think about Big Foot, for example. What evidence would I need in order to be convinced that there is such a creature as Big Foot?

I might be satisfied with any of the following:

1. Multiple eye witness testimonies from people that I know and trust.
2. High quality video footage that I know has not been doctored.
3. A personal encounter with Big Foot.
4. Good forensic data of Big Foot's existence such as unique DNA, footprints, Big Foot's dwelling place, or perhaps even the remains of a dead Big Foot creature.

There might even be other evidence that I've not yet considered that could also be convincing.

See? It's not difficult to imagine what kinds of evidence might be convincing. Why can you not produce a similar list for the existence of God?
I'm not sure I'm following you. Yes, you can think of things that might convince you that Bigfoot exists. And yes, you might think of things that would convince you that God exists.

But why is it necessary for you to be presented with a list of acceptable evidence for God before you offer the evidence you have? Presumably you have reasons to believe that God exists. Presumably you think they are good ones and would convince any other reasonable person. So, why not just tell us what they are?

You ask "Why can you not produce a list of evidence you would accept for the existence of God?"
The answer is, it's an irrelevant step, and its use is frankly suspicious. Presumably you already know what evidence you have, and how convincing it would be to a reasonable person. Your failure to promptly produce such evidence only makes us wonder if you perhaps know it to be of a low quality and wish to prevent its being examined; and your asking "what sort of evidence might convince us" sounds like the kind of thing a cold reader would ask in order to fabricate such evidence. Not that I'm accusing you, of course; but that's what it reminds me of!

Take your Bigfoot example. Imagine how it might go, with a dialogue between two people such as this:
A: So, you believe Bigfoot actually exists, and you think you have good evidence?
B: Yes.
A: Wow, sounds exciting! What is this evidence you have?
B: Ah, ah, ah! That would be telling.
A: Well, yes, it would be telling. That's the point. We'd like you to tell us.
B: First, why don't you tell me what evidence would convince you that Bigfoot exists?
A: Uh...why?
(I wasn't able to imagine the answer to this one. Let's continue)
A: Well, if you insist. Do you have multiple eye witness testimonies from people that you know and trust?
B: No.
A: Do you have high quality video footage that you know has not been doctored?
B: No.
A: Have you had a personal encounter with Big Foot?
B: I have not.
A: Well, then, do you have some good forensic data of Big Foot's existence such as unique DNA, footprints, Big Foot's dwelling place, or perhaps even the remains of a dead Big Foot creature?
B: No.
A: Well, then, why don't you just tell us what you do have?

So. You think God exists? And you think you have convincing evidence of this? Great. Present it, so we can examine it together.
 
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cvanwey

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I'm not sure I'm following you. Yes, you can think of things that might convince you that Bigfoot exists. And yes, you might think of things that would convince you that God exists.

But why is it necessary for you to be presented with a list of acceptable evidence for God before you offer the evidence you have? Presumably you have reasons to believe that God exists. Presumably you think they are good ones and would convince any other reasonable person. So, why not just tell us what they are?

You ask "Why can you not produce a list of evidence you would accept for the existence of God?"
The answer is, it's an irrelevant step, and its use is frankly suspicious. Presumably you already know what evidence you have, and how convincing it would be to a reasonable person. Your failure to promptly produce such evidence only makes us wonder if you perhaps know it to be of a low quality and wish to prevent its being examined; and your asking "what sort of evidence might convince us" sounds like the kind of thing a cold reader would ask in order to fabricate such evidence. Not that I'm accusing you, of course; but that's what it reminds me of!

Take your Bigfoot example. Imagine how it might go, with a dialogue between two people such as this:
A: So, you believe Bigfoot actually exists, and you think you have good evidence?
B: Yes.
A: Wow, sounds exciting! What is this evidence you have?
B: Ah, ah, ah! That would be telling.
A: Well, yes, it would be telling. That's the point. We'd like you to tell us.
B: First, why don't you tell me what evidence would convince you that Bigfoot exists?
A: Uh...why?
(I wasn't able to imagine the answer to this one. Let's continue)
A: Well, if you insist. Do you have multiple eye witness testimonies from people that you know and trust?
B: No.
A: Do you have high quality video footage that you know has not been doctored?
B: No.
A: Have you had a personal encounter with Big Foot?
B: I have not.
A: Well, then, do you have some good forensic data of Big Foot's existence such as unique DNA, footprints, Big Foot's dwelling place, or perhaps even the remains of a dead Big Foot creature?
B: No.
A: Well, then, why don't you just tell us what you do have?

So. You think God exists? And you think you have convincing evidence of this? Great. Present it, so we can examine it together.

He's likely not going to respond. Just like he has not, and will not respond to the few prior - (after post #51).

I'll let you in on some insight. In THIS case, we do have
"video footage" to prove it...

He believes in, not only a God, but a specific God, due to his own personal reason; as said in his provided video at minute (13:45 - 14:10).

Proving the Bible Is God's Word
 
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FutureAndAHope

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We are entering the section of our apologetics course where we are talking about miracles - God acting specially in the world. Are miracles inherently implausible? Is there some problem with the idea of miracles? What's the problem with miracles?
Miracles happen from time to time in the Christian life. My website lists a few that have happened with me Everybody Matters Ministry | Online Church this is not an exhaustive list, other times God has acted but I have not recorded everything.

One of the areas that God has encouraged me in is the area of physical healing, as I have attempted to preach the word, God has enabled me to see healings occur, from time to time. Not all the time, but with enough frequency to see God's hand at work.

I put the challenge out there, are you sick, or have a friend who is. Let's pray for you/them, in Jesus name, and God willing you may not need just words.
 
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TLK Valentine

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We are entering the section of our apologetics course where we are talking about miracles - God acting specially in the world. Are miracles inherently implausible? Is there some problem with the idea of miracles? What's the problem with miracles?

I talked about this in another thread, but I'll say it again here.

The problem with miracles is that if God's actions are signs of His will, then His inactions are so as well. A god who can perform miracles has some explaining to do when He chooses not to.

A god who rains manna from heaven to feed his chosen people while millions of others starve, a god who miraculously heals a handful of lepers while millions around the world, and hundreds of millions throughout history, have died of Cancer, Smallpox, Polio, Ebola, AIDS, Tuberculosis, Plague, COVID, etc., etc.... a god who aids one nation in war against another, while innocent civilians in battlefields throughout history get mowed down, well... such a being seems capricious at the very least, and downright cruel and malevolent at the most.
 
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TLK Valentine

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My position is that until someone demonstrates that there is something that is supernatural or that there is a spiritual realm, any discussion of miracles is moot. Any explanation, including the authors knowing lied (I don't think that's the case), is more plausible than that any of it happened.

In a real-world scenario, this is very true. But miracles do happen in the Bible, so we could, if we so chose, limit ourselves to discussing miracles in the context of that particular narrative without grinding any mental gears.

Think of it like discussing The Force -- we could spend all day arguing if Yoda was a more powerful Jedi than Palpatine, but it wouldn't make much sense outside of the movies.
 
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