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Problems with Miracles?

All Becomes New

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Of course I could prove I exist.

We could exchange addresses. I could (but I'm not) drive to your house and say "True Counterphobia" when you answer the door or any other key phrase that would satisfy.

Too, something is communicating with you here and now? What is it? Bot? Whatever it is, bot or not, it's me. Done.

What is this bad epistemology that believers fall back on? "You can't prove X therefore you should believe in my god that I can't prove". *Sheesh*


Yup. Apologetics 101. "No True Christian".

If I wasn't a true Christian, you aren't either. If I was, look to your own defenses.

I'm a once saved always saved guy. You were not saved. Unless you have some Biblical references you can use to back up that you were saved, I am pretty sure we are done here.
 
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Tinker Grey

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I'm a once saved always saved guy. You were not saved. Unless you have some Biblical references you can use to back up that you were saved, I am pretty sure we are done here.
Yes. That's the defense isn't it. One cannot bear to think that they aren't as secure as they might hope. Your beliefs don't define Christianity so there's that.

Yeah, we're done. You have no evidence. You have nothing.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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What evidence would make you believe?
I have no idea. Why would or even should I. How can I possibly know all the evidence is available? God should have the ability to show me convincing evidence.

Can you show me the evidence that convinced you? We can start there.
 
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All Becomes New

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I have no idea. Why would or even should I. How can I possibly know all the evidence is available? God should have the ability to show me convincing evidence.

Can you show me the evidence that convinced you? We can start there.

So what you are saying is that you have no idea what evidence would convince you but you are not convinced. Is that right? That sounds more like a personal problem to me than anything actually objective.

I wasn't convinced by evidence, I was convinced by experience. Since then, God has shown himself to be real to me. I have an understanding of God's sovereignty now and how it effects my decisions. Sure, sometimes I have to ask myself, "Why did I do that? What was the purpose of it?" But this is nothing new or anything that isn't in the Bible.
 
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I wasn't convinced by evidence, I was convinced by experience. Since then, God has shown himself to be real to me. I have an understanding of God's sovereignty now and how it effects my decisions. Sure, sometimes I have to ask myself, "Why did I do that? What was the purpose of it?" But this is nothing new or anything that isn't in the Bible.
Okay. So you have evidence that convinces you, and that's fine. But the evidence that you have is useless for convincing anyone else.
So would you concede that as far as evidence that would convince another person goes, you do not have any?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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So what you are saying is that you have no idea what evidence would convince you but you are not convinced. Is that right? That sounds more like a personal problem to me than anything actually objective.
I would suggest learning about evidence and the nature of it. I think if you do my response will make sense.

I wasn't convinced by evidence, I was convinced by experience. Since then, God has shown himself to be real to me. I have an understanding of God's sovereignty now and how it effects my decisions. Sure, sometimes I have to ask myself, "Why did I do that? What was the purpose of it?" But this is nothing new or anything that isn't in the Bible.
Here is why I don't think you have studied evidence and what constitutes good evidence. Personal experience is evidence. It is not evidence that should convince others.

How has God shown himself to be real to you?
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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I'm a once saved always saved guy. You were not saved.

Let's assume your criterion for being "saved" is true, that only people who never cease to believe are actually saved.

Suppose there are two people who believe in and practice the Christian faith as strongly and dutifully as one another, but at some point in the future, one of them will cease believing. You would claim that person was never actually saved. But what means do you have, here in the present, of telling the difference between the two people?

There isn't any such means. No one can see the future. No one can truthfully claim to know that they, or anyone else, will ever cease to believe. As such, no one can ever truthfully claim to know that they, or anyone else, are saved.

Including you.

I highly suggest you start thinking more carefully about the implications of your assertions.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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What's the problem with miracles?

I would start with the fact that there is no coherent, positive, non-superfluous definition of the "supernatural", and no reliable means of gleaning when something supernatural has occurred, as opposed to some unknown natural phenomenon.

There really is nothing to talk about, until that first hurdle is cleared.
 
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All Becomes New

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Let's assume your criterion for being "saved" is true, that only people who never cease to believe are actually saved.

Suppose there are two people who believe in and practice the Christian faith as strongly and dutifully as one another, but at some point in the future, one of them will cease believing. You would claim that person was never actually saved. But what means do you have, here in the present, of telling the difference between the two people?

There isn't any such means. No one can see the future. No one can truthfully claim to know that they, or anyone else, will ever cease to believe. As such, no one can ever truthfully claim to know that they, or anyone else, are saved.

Including you.

I highly suggest you start thinking more carefully about the implications of your assertions.

It's not just believing that makes someone a Christian. The demons "believe" but are not saved. Someone is saved if they have the Holy Spirit living in them. So it takes more than only belief to be a true Christian.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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It's not just believing that makes someone a Christian. The demons "believe" but are not saved. Someone is saved if they have the Holy Spirit living in them. So it takes more than only belief to be a true Christian.

That doesn't help you. You have no means of determining whether or not you actually have the holy spirit living in you. It is possible, and quite common actually, to be convinced of something that is false.

So again, by your own criteria, no one can accurately claim to know they are "saved". Including you.
 
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Tree of Life

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I would start with the fact that there is no coherent, positive, non-superfluous definition of the "supernatural", and no reliable means of gleaning when something supernatural has occurred, as opposed to some unknown natural phenomenon.

There really is nothing to talk about, until that first hurdle is cleared.

I would not use the term “super natural” as I also find it to be incoherent. But I don’t think that’s a problem for miracles.
 
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All Becomes New

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That doesn't help you. You have no means of determining whether or not you actually have the holy spirit living in you. It is possible, and quite common actually, to be convinced of something that is false.

So again, by your own criteria, no one can accurately claim to know they are "saved". Including you.

And how do you know I could be wrong about the Holy Spirit living un me? Your answer is that sometimes people are wrong so I could be wrong as well. The problem with this is that you assume the Holy Spirit living in me is just like other things, but it's not. I've experienced miracles so I have good reason to believe the Holy Spirit lives in me. That is not the totality of the matter, it's just evidence. The real reason is because I am in relationship with the Holy Spirit, which you can't understand because you don't have the same relationship with the Holy Spirit.
 
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Landon Caeli

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And how do you know I could be wrong about the Holy Spirit living un me? Your answer is that sometimes people are wrong so I could be wrong as well. The problem with this is that you assume the Holy Spirit living in me is just like other things, but it's not. I've experienced miracles so I have good reason to believe the Holy Spirit lives in me. That is not the totality of the matter, it's just evidence. The real reason is because I am in relationship with the Holy Spirit, which you can't understand because you don't have the same relationship with the Holy Spirit.

I have a problem with miracles, in that I used to always be searching for signs. I would pray, and then wait... Or I would think about God, and I would wait... Hoping God would reveal something to me.

But then I noticed something strange, which is that I started seeing miracles when I would sin. Literally, I noticed little "rewards" that were naturally unexplainable for every sin I committed...

So I no longer look for miracles. I am afraid of miracles. I don’t like them, and I don’t want them anymore.

When I pray now, I pray to God only, and never ask for anything. I no longer look for, or expect signs. My prayer life is strictly worship, and nothing more.
 
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All Becomes New

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I have a problem with miracles, in that I used to always be searching for signs. I would pray, and then wait... Or I would think about God, and I would wait... Hoping God would reveal something to me.

But then I noticed something strange, which is that I started seeing miracles when I would sin. Literally, I noticed little "rewards" that were naturally unexplainable for every sin I committed...

So I no longer look for miracles. I am afraid of miracles, and I don’t like them.

You're asking God to prove Himself to you. I suspect you motivation for asking for miracles is not in line with God's will, which is why you didn't see them when you asked. There are two passages about prayer and how to pray I can think of off the top of my head I can give you when I get home. One is in James and one is in Philipians. Also, a lot of Christian's pray for miracles when it isn't God's will to do that miracle, so it's not just a problem specific to you because some Christian's have the same problem. A lot of people at Bethel are obsessed with wanting to see miracles when they don't seek what the Spirit wants to do. Bad things happen when you try and force God's hand.
 
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Landon Caeli

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miracles.

My best advice is to be cautious with miracles. I may have made the mistake of "expecting" them, which ended up ultimately leading me down a path to evil.

Beware..!
 
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Landon Caeli

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That doesn't help you. You have no means of determining whether or not you actually have the holy spirit living in you. It is possible, and quite common actually, to be convinced of something that is false.

So again, by your own criteria, no one can accurately claim to know they are "saved". Including you.

There is no common rule on what proportion of evidence or intuition people use to come to conclusions... I know some people who won't even consider something, let alone accept it, if it hasn't been already proven. But then again, It's human nature to connect the dots... It's known as "abstract thinking" which is the fundamental building block of human consciousness... It's what separates humans from goats and sheep.

But I digress. This is less important than discussing the topic.
 
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And how do you know I could be wrong about the Holy Spirit living un me? Your answer is that sometimes people are wrong so I could be wrong as well. The problem with this is that you assume the Holy Spirit living in me is just like other things, but it's not. I've experienced miracles so I have good reason to believe the Holy Spirit lives in me. That is not the totality of the matter, it's just evidence. The real reason is because I am in relationship with the Holy Spirit, which you can't understand because you don't have the same relationship with the Holy Spirit.
Ever heard of Dan Barker?
 
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All Becomes New

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@Landon Caeli,

Here are the verses and a little more about prayer:

Philippians 4:4-7
Philippians 4:4 ¶ Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice.
Philippians 4:5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand;
Philippians 4:6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

So you should be praying with thankfulness.

James 1:5-8
James 1:5 ¶ If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
James 1:7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;
James 1:8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

So you should be praying with sureness that you will receive and not with skepticism (take note those of you who want to pray to God but are unsure if He will hear you as you ought to pray with confidence).

And some things about prayer and faith from Jesus:

Luke 11:1-4
Luke 11:1 ¶ Now Jesus1 was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, gas John taught his disciples.”
Luke 11:2 And he said to them, “When you pray, say:
'Father, hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come.
Luke 11:3 Give us each day our daily bread,
Luke 11:4 and forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And plead us not into temptation.'"

Jesus doesn't tell His disciples to pray "lofty" prayers, just the basics, such as praying your needs are met and God's will to be done and to pray with a humble heart asking for forgiveness.

Notice that none of this prayer is a declaration except that God's kingdom come to the earth. This has implications of what is considered God's kingdom coming to earth, but suffice to say, it's the same thing as it is in James.

Matthew 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”

Now the thing ALL of these passages assume is that you are "testing" the Spirit to see if what you are praying is from God, as it also says,

Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’
Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’
Revelation 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with pa new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’
Revelation 2:29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
Revelation 3:6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
Revelation 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
Revelation 3:22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

And,

1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.

The biggest problem I see when people pray for a miracle, is that they don't even bother to stop and test if it is God's will to do a miracle at that point in time. They just pray for the miracle without testing the Spirit. Of course, knowing what to pray, if it is from God, is a matter of discernment, which is found in 1 Corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

The distinguishing between Spirits is a gift from God. Rather than thinking about having it and not having it, think rather in terms of how much you have it. From there, pray in confidence based on how much discernment you have that God is going to answer your prayer.

Finally, one more passage about prayer:

Hebrews 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

So it is not about if we should pray with confidence, because praying with faith is key. But in anything that you find yourself not really knowing if God wants to answer your prayer or not, then to either not pray for it, which is probably the more accurate thing to do, or to pray something like, "Lord, I pray for X, and if it is your will that you would do it."

So always pray in a way that you are humble, but confident that God will answer your prayer.

I'm also going to tag @cvanwey here as he might learn something here about his problem with praying God would do something for him.
 
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