Problems with femininity?

[Paidiske]

In another thread (here: Male college students to undergo ‘critical self-reflection’ of masculinity ) there is some discussion of the idea of "toxic masculinity," and the question was raised about whether we have corresponding ideas of "toxic femininity."

I said that I didn't think we use the term, but that our culture does have negative perceptions and stereotypes of women which are seen as harmful and needing to change. (As I described it: The idea of women as passive, relationship-oriented rather than task-oriented, emotional rather than rational, obsessed with frivolity such as fashion and excessive personal grooming, and so on, is pervasive and persistent. Add in the stereotypes of social disempowerment - woman as nag, woman as leech, woman as unable to cope with stressful workplaces - and so on).

Not everyone agreed with me (the horror!), so I thought I'd not derail that thread but start this one to ask people - and especially the women of the forum - for their experiences of perceptions of femininity, and whether we are judged for being feminine (whatever we mean by that), and pressured to be something else.

 

[teresa]

Hi Pastor
How are you doing this evening?

Thank you for starting this interesting thread.

an experience I have had for most of my life is one of being criticized for not being more ladylike and being a tom boy.

I spent most of my life being a gymnast, then coach and aerobics and fitness instructor.

In high school, I often went to two gymnastics workouts after school, one from 3-5 pm and another from 7-9pm.

On Saturdays, my workouts were from 7-12pm, then 2-4pm.

I practically lived in a leotard more than regular clothes.

Jeans and tee shirts, or sporty tops were my everyday gear.

I never wore makeup either, as I was running all day long.

For a little while, I skated before school, from 6-7:30 am as well.

I didn't know a real woman was to wear high heels every single day or at least have on make-up and have curled their hair or other fixes.

There are some of us who are competitive athletes and then go on to become coaches.

So the other rejection has been the lack of the ability to have children as well.

was just way too athletic and my doctor told me slow down and gain body fat in order to get pregnant.

I just couldn't gain 30 more pounds as requested, in body fat, as he told me I was way too lean at 7-11% body fat.

Just look at how social media has attacked current world and Olympic champion Simone biles for being so powerful.

She is the most decorated gymnast in history, male or female.

pastor, should women not compete in sports?

Is it ungodly, or unfeminine?

 

[Tetra]

I love this topic, I know you're looking for a women's perspective, but may I be permitted to join in too?

 

[Paidiske]

Oh, of course, Tetra. I just wanted to encourage the ladies to speak up, too!

 

[Tetra]

Oh, of course, Tetra. I just wanted to encourage the ladies to speak up, too!

Sometimes as men we can roll over women's opinions, so that wouldn't be my intention just so you know. I hope you get lots of women speaking up!!

May I ask to clairify, in you OP, were you saying you think feminine toxicity is real?

 

[Paidiske]

u2spicy, thanks for that really interesting post.

I don't - on the face of it - think that it's ungodly or unfeminine to compete in sports. I do think that, like all things in our lives, we have to discern carefully about what we do and how committed to it we are.

I've never been a sportsperson, really, but you've reminded me that when my brother was a swimmer there was a lot of judgement of the female swimmers, about their bodies, and about their commitment to their sport. I think, too, that maybe the women were less encouraged to think of the sport as their career, more encouraged to focus on academics as well. Do you think that holds true for gymnastics?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

In another thread (here: Male college students to undergo ‘critical self-reflection’ of masculinity ) there is some discussion of the idea of "toxic masculinity," and the question was raised about whether we have corresponding ideas of "toxic femininity."

I said that I didn't think we use the term, but...

Pardon me for butting in, but I'm terribly misinformed about the concept of 'toxic masculinity'; I presume it's the stereotypical idea of all men are non-thinking 'get a bigger hammer' types.

There's enough stereotypes and expectations ("You're a [fill in blank], you're supposed to [fill in other blank] or act [fill in still another blank]) to go around.

So. When the Lord God made humanity, He made us in His own image, AND He made us male and female. I find it worth noting the account FIRST mentions God made humanity in His image and then SECOND mentions male and female. Further, without going in great detail, the term the Lord uses for the woman translated 'help meet' in the KJV is transliterated 'ezer and means 'helper'. However, it is the same word used to describe God as a helper, so the meaning isn't a subordinate helper.

Short version, men and women are both made in the likeness or image of God, but different from each other. Not superior and inferior (either direction) but different in ability and function, so to speak. And from the flavor of the text, they are 'complimentary' to each other in the mathematical sense.

 

[Paidiske]

May I ask to clairify, in you OP, were you saying you think feminine toxicity is real?

I was arguing that just as we might make a claim that there is a "toxic masculinity," that in our culture we can also see a "toxic femininity," and I wanted to explore that idea a bit, whether ideas of femininity can be harmful to women and to society generally.

 

[Tetra]

I was arguing that just as we might make a claim that there is a "toxic masculinity," that in our culture we can also see a "toxic femininity," and I wanted to explore that idea a bit, whether ideas of femininity can be harmful to women and to society generally.

I'll sleep on this one and hopefully some women will have got in their opinions before the morning! I have some ideas though.

 

[Radrook]

Milla Jovovich looks very feminine in her role as Ultraviolet and in all her other action oriented sci-fi films where she is taking the lead in the action.

 

[teresa]

was a lot of judgement of the female swimmers, about their bodies, and about their commitment to their sport. I think, too, that maybe the women were less encouraged to think of the sport as their career, more encouraged to focus on academics as well. Do you think that holds true for gymnastics?

Yes, pastor, there was often a very harsh judgement being made upon us when we were pre-teens, as to how committed we were to the sport and to our team, no less, as gaining weight as we were developing into women, could cost a competition if we weren't able to manage the changes well. This is how I understand where your brother is coming from all too well.

We were even weighted in front of the entire team and shamed for our weight if the coach thought it was too much. Can you just imagine having to stand there and get onto a scale and have your weight announced to the team?

One good thing, though, was thought you were taught or trained to be elegant and graceful as part of your score of overall, or artistic impression.

So, even with the critics at school, you still walked with grace and beauty, and mighty confidence.

But I wondered if it wasn't godly to become so lean as in pre-professional dance because it made me unable to obey the command to be fruitful when I was married.

 

[teresa]

I'll sleep on this one and hopefully some women will have got in their opinions before the morning! I have some ideas though.

me too tetra....got church in the morning and its nearly midnight now.

Blessings

 

[Paidiske]

I don't think the command to be fruitful is for every person today. (That could be a whole other thread... although expectations around women and motherhood probably relate to this one too).

Enjoy church in the morning, it's late Sunday afternoon here!

(Oh, and you don't need to call me pastor. Nobody else does. )

 

[teresa]

I don't think the command to be fruitful is for every person today. (That could be a whole other thread... although expectations around women and motherhood probably relate to this one too).

Enjoy church in the morning, it's late Sunday afternoon here!

(Oh, and you don't need to call me pastor. Nobody else does. )

ok.

yes the whole issue of motherhood is a big one!

Have a blessed day

 

[dzheremi]

Not a woman here, but I find it curious that the topic came up in the context of people in another thread thinking that it's somehow sexist to talk about toxic masculinity if we're not also going to entertain the idea of toxic femininity, as though because one has been identified there has to also be the other...as though biology or socialization or whatever operates on the basis of 'fairness' and the assumption that men and women are essentially mirrors of one another or whatever the thinking is here. Maybe it's my linguistics training kicking in again, but I can't help but think: What if we just don't have that term because there's no corresponding phenomenon or theory to refer to by that label? That doesn't mean that there can't be 'toxic' things about femininity anyway, but just in terms of being sociologically-recognized to the point where there'd be seminars about it or whatever...that doesn't seem to be happening, but that doesn't mean that it's appropriate to assume that it's 'sexist' that it isn't happening.

Also, from what little I understand about the concept of toxic masculinity (basically from having to watch the film "Fight Club" in a film theory class in college many years ago; a thoroughly unpleasant experience), it seems like it's about the expression of masculinity in a manner that hurts men and their relationship to themselves, in the sense of causing a lot of mental illness, low self-esteem, aimlessness, etc. All the stuff that men might get wound up about when it comes to ideas of 'being a man', to the point of literally being driven crazy when they don't measure up, a la Elliot Rodgers (a recent American murderer who killed women as 'punishment' for not being chosen by them romantically).

Is there anything similar to that for women or young girls? I'm not sure, or at least I don't think I see it in the examples in the OP. For instance, I know women who quite enjoy fashion and looking fashionable, but none who have ever been driven up the wall by it. I suppose as in anything there could be some context in which a person would fixate on things to an unhealthy level, but I don't think that's any more likely among women or concerning 'womanly things' than it would be among men or concerning 'manly things'. Yes, Imelda Marcos supposedly had hundreds of pairs of shoes, but she was also a corrupt millionaire kleptocrat so that was more evidence of her decadent lifestyle set against the context of the country that she bilked out of tons of money while her people starved than anything that should be looked at as "see how dumb women are/look at the silly stuff they spend money on when they have it" or whatever. Comedian and television host Jay Leno has a collection of something like two dozen cars and nobody bats an eye at that, despite the fact that it's equally a waste of money and furthermore a collection of stereotypically 'masculine' things.

I can't help but notice that about the list of feminine traits in the OP: these are things that stereotypically annoy men, which is in itself not comparable to men hurting themselves (what toxic masculinity is supposed to be about). So maybe that's why 'toxic femininity' has not developed into a salient concept.

 

[squirrel123]

If "toxic masculinity" is how patriarchy harm men, then "toxic feminism" would be how feminism harms women, no?

If that is the correct definition, I'd say examples would include things like -
- Stay a home moms being judged harshly by other women.
- Women becoming so focused on sexism that every failure is immediately blamed on that, with no introspection and no thoughts given to whether there may be other causes. Eg maybe she could improve her lack of skills by doing another course, but she won't because obviously she didn't get the job just because she's a woman...
- Women becoming so sensitive that every attempt of a man who genuinely likes her, to impress her, is seen as a "micro-aggession"
Etc...

 

[Zoii]

I think its interesting the description you gave to toxic femininity. It seems to be the stereotype that some men use.... Not smart and need a man to make the decisions, emotional, less intelligent then men, unable to lead... and for that matter shouldnt be leading as some interpret from the bible.

When Ive said things that imply I can stand on my own feet, that Im good at school and probably will have a good degree and be successful in a career, and as such dont need any male to lead me... well Im seen as some sort of radical feminist.... The term feminist itself is used in a way that suggests something negative.... that its bringing the downfall of the very fundamentals of human relationships.

I read a book that had a huge impact on me called "the Natural Way of things" by an Australian author. It really made me ask...what is it (outside of my physical appearance) that defines my personal identity as a female"

 

[Sif]

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[Zoii]

The site rules do not permit me to answer truthfully. I'd be banned in a nano-second if I did. Accused of flaming, hate-speech, etc.

Yet you posted

 

[Sif]

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