Problems with femininity?

[Zoii]

I for one wish a lot of men really would get on with their issues - the problem of male violence is escalating not abating so seemingly many men don't know how to deal with their issues or are incapable of managing their anger/emotions.

But this is a thread about female toxicity. I still find the term difficult to define what it is but I'm guessing its all the stereotypes, which is why I loved "The Natural Way of Things" which really hammered this topic".

 

[Gadarene]

I for one wish a lot of men really would get on with their issues - the problem of male violence is escalating not abating so seemingly many men don't know how to deal with their issues or are incapable of managing their anger/emotions.

As soon as women acknowledge their collective issues and start dealing with theirs. We've covered men's failings plenty.

 

[PloverWing]

But this is a thread about female toxicity. I still find the term difficult to define what it is but I'm guessing its all the stereotypes, which is why I loved "The Natural Way of Things" which really hammered this topic".

Thanks for the book recommendation. After you mentioned it twice in this thread, I decided it must be worth Googling. I'll be checking it out of my local library this week.

 

[teresa]

Thanks for the book recommendation. After you mentioned it twice in this thread, I decided it must be worth Googling. I'll be checking it out of my local library this week.

It does look like a good read plover

thanks zoii for sharing that helpful information

 

[PloverWing]

Not everyone agreed with me (the horror!), so I thought I'd not derail that thread but start this one to ask people - and especially the women of the forum - for their experiences of perceptions of femininity, and whether we are judged for being feminine (whatever we mean by that), and pressured to be something else.

Thanks for starting this thread. I've been wrestling with issues of gender, femininity, and femaleness most of my adult life. Some of my ideas and experiences fit with what's been posted by u2spicy, Tetra, and NothingIsImpossible. I still (after all this time!) have more questions than answers, but here's some of what I bring to the discussion.

1) I'm a straight, cisgender woman, but I don't fit the label "feminine", in that many feminine gender expectations don't appeal to me or describe me well. Like Tetra, I think it would be better for the culture to use "feminine" to mean "the things that actual women do". Still, there's a strong pressure of gender expectations that we experience throughout our lives, and that, for me, is at odds with who I am.

2) I'm a computer science professor. As you probably know, CS skews very male. I've taught I-don't-know-how-many classes that were 100% men. Girls and women are opting out of this field. It seems to start in middle school, as girls enter into their adult womanhood. Why? What fears or expectations or self-images make girls pull away from fields like CS, engineering, and physics as they become women? Is there anything we can do differently as we socialize our daughters?

3) More recently, I've come to look at ways in which female socialization makes things better, and worse, in relationships. For example, as women, we've been trained to be sensitive to other people's emotions and to take a great deal of responsibility for maintaining the health of relationships; that's good. As women, we may also have been trained to give in way too much, out of fear of a male partner's anger; that's not so good. This is an area I'm just starting to explore. "Toxicity" is too strong a word, but some aspects of our gender-specific socializations are less than healthy.

So, more questions that answers. But thanks for starting the discussion.

 

[Paidiske]

I was never offered computer science as an option at school (I guess I'm just slightly too old) but loved physics. We had a reasonable sized class in an all-girls school. Are girls put off when they think it might be dominated by boys? Do they want to do what their friends are doing? Might that also relate to why boys choose the subjects they dominate? I'm not sure.

 

[teresa]

I was never offered computer science as an option at school (I guess I'm just slightly too old) but loved physics. We had a reasonable sized class in an all-girls school. Are girls put off when they think it might be dominated by boys? Do they want to do what their friends are doing? Might that also relate to why boys choose the subjects they dominate? I'm not sure.

yes, for me, it was off-putting to be in classes with all guys.

I felt ignored and not welcome in lab work, until of course, some of those same guys got lost with the material and needed my help.

 

[dzheremi]

As soon as women acknowledge their collective issues and start dealing with theirs. We've covered men's failings plenty.

Why should one be dependent on the other in that fashion? Shouldn't the fact that everyone is prone to some kind of issue(s) remove the retort that so-and-so isn't working on theirs? If we're all in the muck together, a competition of who is(n't) doing the most about it could be argued to be a delaying tactic in itself, thereby perpetuating the "get on with it" complaint.

 

[Zoii]

So strip away your clothes and your body image and then get your journal out and write - what is it that defines you as female.... there's all types of females of course but what is your type and how is it different to a male type - what's the part of you that is specifically about being a female as opposed to being simply human.

 

[Received]

I for one wish a lot of men really would get on with their issues - the problem of male violence is escalating not abating so seemingly many men don't know how to deal with their issues or are incapable of managing their anger/emotions.

But this is a thread about female toxicity. I still find the term difficult to define what it is but I'm guessing its all the stereotypes, which is why I loved "The Natural Way of Things" which really hammered this topic".

And think about what your excellent point means: that men are worse men (domestic violence, etc.) because they're not able to express their emotions, i.e., tap into their feminine side.

No man is just a man, and no woman is just a woman; by definition any person has at least a fraction of the opposite in him or her, and what determines "him" or "her" is the emphasis that one places on a particular gender through the value placed on a particular gender.

Put differently: in order to be fully a man, you must engage at least partly with that feminine part within you, here meaning engaging with emotions which if left disengaged means you're boiling up psychologically, leading to domestic violence.

 

[Paidiske]

But does domestic violence happen because men can't manage their emotions?

Or does it happen because abusive men can manage their emotions, and use them to control and dominate another?

I thought the research showed it was more the latter.

 

[Received]

But does domestic violence happen because men can't manage their emotions?

Or does it happen because abusive men can manage their emotions, and use them to control and dominate another?

I thought the research showed it was more the latter.

I can only speak from experience, which is pretty shallow seeing how I've never counseled a couple in a domestic abuse situation. But I have counseled a few guys who have tendencies toward violence, including domestic abuse situations, and in every single case there's textbook impulsivity and emotion regulation problems -- the anger being too explosive at first, which needs to be slowed down through labeling their anger, then focusing on the hurt underneath, then emotion regulation techniques, etc.

The man who is able to manage his emotions but uses them to control others is approaching psychopathy, not your typical domestic abuse situation, where the problem is with men who can't prevent the bombs of their own anger from going off. It's a matter of weakness, really.

 

[teresa]

But does domestic violence happen because men can't manage their emotions?

Or does it happen because abusive men can manage their emotions, and use them to control and dominate another?

I thought the research showed it was more the latter.

It is the latter from my experience with this issue, in that they know how to control the improper expression of emotions, so as to appear appropriate or at least to fool people.

Concurrently, they don't know how to manage their intense emotions utilizing skills like conflict resolution.

Do you see?

They just hide and control outbursts, so that they can be appealing and then explode later, because they never resolved their conflicts.

Its my thought that to manage your emotions, you do indeed need to be taught how to do that very thing, and that would involve learning positive coping and management skills in that area.

I'm thinking that these skills aren't being taught in the home.

This is a complex issue in and of itself.

 

[Gadarene]

Why should one be dependent on the other in that fashion? Shouldn't the fact that everyone is prone to some kind of issue(s) remove the retort that so-and-so isn't working on theirs? If we're all in the muck together, a competition of who is(n't) doing the most about it could be argued to be a delaying tactic in itself, thereby perpetuating the "get on with it" complaint.

When there is toxic female behaviour but no toxic femininity concept then it is not the men dragging their heels.

To answer your initial question, the one is dependent on the other for me because men are constantly lectured on equality by people who in practice have no real desire for it.

 

[Zoii]

But does domestic violence happen because men can't manage their emotions?

Or does it happen because abusive men can manage their emotions, and use them to control and dominate another?

I thought the research showed it was more the latter.

Well I dont want to de-rail your thread because its about female toxicity - but my mini-answer is no its about men who usually have insecurities and incapacitates. Men that hate themselves because of their inadequacies'and look to something they can attempt to control - that as it turns out is the person they are supposed to love the most and protect - their partner n kids. and the result is violence.

 

[quatona]

In another thread (here: Male college students to undergo ‘critical self-reflection’ of masculinity ) there is some discussion of the idea of "toxic masculinity," and the question was raised about whether we have corresponding ideas of "toxic femininity."

I said that I didn't think we use the term, but that our culture does have negative perceptions and stereotypes of women which are seen as harmful and needing to change. (As I described it: The idea of women as passive, relationship-oriented rather than task-oriented, emotional rather than rational, obsessed with frivolity such as fashion and excessive personal grooming, and so on, is pervasive and persistent. Add in the stereotypes of social disempowerment - woman as nag, woman as leech, woman as unable to cope with stressful workplaces - and so on).

Not everyone agreed with me (the horror!), so I thought I'd not derail that thread but start this one to ask people - and especially the women of the forum - for their experiences of perceptions of femininity, and whether we are judged for being feminine (whatever we mean by that), and pressured to be something else.

In my observation, when it comes to abuse females (in most cases) do it differently than males.

 

[PloverWing]

I was never offered computer science as an option at school (I guess I'm just slightly too old) but loved physics. We had a reasonable sized class in an all-girls school. Are girls put off when they think it might be dominated by boys? Do they want to do what their friends are doing? Might that also relate to why boys choose the subjects they dominate? I'm not sure.

I've read that for some girls and women, studying CS/science/engineering subjects in a single-sex environment makes a significant positive difference. I don't think it's fully understood yet why it makes a difference. (Many factors are possible -- being worried about looking dumb in front of the opposite sex, or being worried about looking too smart in front of the opposite sex, or being inadvertently silenced by talkative boys, or feeling like you don't fit in socially because you're different ... many other possibilities.)

Most American classrooms, from elementary school through college, are coed, so we don't have that many schools experimenting with single-sex classrooms. I have mixed feelings about them. On the one hand, I see wonderful things at women-only colleges -- so many women confidently pursuing computer science there! On the other hand, if we had single-sex public high schools, I'd worry about the separate-and-not-really-equal problem, where girls' schools might not get the same funding and resources as the boys' schools. (The US has historically had that problem with racially segregated schools, an uncomfortable precedent.)

 

[Anguspure]

But does domestic violence happen because men can't manage their emotions?

Or does it happen because abusive men can manage their emotions, and use them to control and dominate another?

I thought the research showed it was more the latter.

Domestic violence often happens when people feel trapped in an impossible situation and don't know how to, or don't want to leave. I was treated in this way by a woman who felt like this, and I have felt the same in a similar situation.

 

[Paidiske]

Most American classrooms, from elementary school through college, are coed, so we don't have that many schools experimenting with single-sex classrooms. I have mixed feelings about them. On the one hand, I see wonderful things at women-only colleges -- so many women confidently pursuing computer science there! On the other hand, if we had single-sex public high schools, I'd worry about the separate-and-not-really-equal problem, where girls' schools might not get the same funding and resources as the boys' schools. (The US has historically had that problem with racially segregated schools, an uncomfortable precedent.)

It's perhaps significant that in Australia, single-sex classrooms are common for high school, but only in non-government schools. There are a couple of girls-only high schools I know of run by the government in my city, but no boys-only. But among the non-government schools, coed high schools would be the exception rather than the norm. About 30% of our students attend non-government schools.

I attended a girls-only Anglican school for high school, and found that a very good environment, on the whole. I think it supported me academically to pursue my goals and do my best. It did mean, though, that getting to university was a bit of a shock socially; I wasn't prepared for the diversity of the student body (not just having men in class, but - for example - I remember in one of my first year lab classes there was a gothic lesbian couple, and as far as I was concerned they might as well have been aliens from Mars, for all I understood of their world!)

 

[Received]

It is the latter from my experience with this issue, in that they know how to control the improper expression of emotions, so as to appear appropriate or at least to fool people.

Concurrently, they don't know how to manage their intense emotions utilizing skills like conflict resolution.

These two statements seem contradictory. On the one hand they can control their emotions, but they also don't know how to manage these intense emotions?

Do you see?

They just hide and control outbursts, so that they can be appealing and then explode later, because they never resolved their conflicts.

Its my thought that to manage your emotions, you do indeed need to be taught how to do that very thing, and that would involve learning positive coping and management skills in that area.

I'm thinking that these skills aren't being taught in the home.

This is a complex issue in and of itself.

It is. It's also amazing how such simple causes can in some cases lead to domestic abuse situations. I counseled an adolescent who was totally "normal" until he realized his sister was being fondled by a close family member; the moment he realized this his world totally changed, and he developed significant anger issues -- such that you see in domestic abuse situations, though he wasn't in a domestic abuse situation at the time.

I was way too green at the time to appropriately theorize as to what was going on to cause his change, but my sense looking back now is that his interpersonal schema significantly changed from something like "people can be trusted" to "anyone can hurt me or people I care about at any time and I might not be aware of it," the latter schema creating the softer insecurity and hurt that's covered up by the secondary emotion of anger. If I were more experienced at the time when I counseled him, I would have tried to focus on the softer emotion underlying his anger and found extreme vulnerability and sadness/unresolved grief regarding his sister.