Problems with femininity?

[Zoii]

I will delete the post so YOU are offended and report me

No my point really was - you posted to say you shouldnt post - you obviously have something to say - you also obviously know the conduct rules here so - follow those and you will be fine.

 

[Sif]

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[MehGuy]

Requested I be BANNED since my very existence is offensive to TRUE Christians!

I think you can share your thoughts. As long as you don't flame any potential poster directly you should be fine.

 

[Sif]

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[Paidiske]

Sif, you're welcome here. I'd be glad to hear the perspective of another religion. As folks said; if you manage not to flame anyone (or any group) directly, but offer constructive criticism, that's more than fine.

 

[Received]

In another thread (here: Male college students to undergo ‘critical self-reflection’ of masculinity ) there is some discussion of the idea of "toxic masculinity," and the question was raised about whether we have corresponding ideas of "toxic femininity."

I said that I didn't think we use the term, but that our culture does have negative perceptions and stereotypes of women which are seen as harmful and needing to change. (As I described it: The idea of women as passive, relationship-oriented rather than task-oriented, emotional rather than rational, obsessed with frivolity such as fashion and excessive personal grooming, and so on, is pervasive and persistent. Add in the stereotypes of social disempowerment - woman as nag, woman as leech, woman as unable to cope with stressful workplaces - and so on).

Not everyone agreed with me (the horror!), so I thought I'd not derail that thread but start this one to ask people - and especially the women of the forum - for their experiences of perceptions of femininity, and whether we are judged for being feminine (whatever we mean by that), and pressured to be something else.

The problem with gender roles is their pigeonholing and extremist nature. No person exists without some mix of the opposite gender in him or her, so there's no such thing as a purely passive woman with no assertiveness, or one who's purely emotional without a whit of reason (turns out emotions have their own rationality, i.e., are based in perceptions, beliefs, and reasoning), etc.

The problem is with perceiving a person as fitting a certain role and so trapping them through your conceptualization of them and the rules that go with this conceptualization. If a person feels comfortable way on the continuum of femininity, that's their right, but the important thing is we really support their freedom to fit where they do. Then again, I don't know if a person who is extremely passive, extremely emotional, etc., can really be fully happy, which is why I push for androgyny as the "center of left or right" position on the gender continuum that tends to make people the happiest both intrapersonally and interpersonally (relationships).

But maybe there is a problem with gender, insofar as gender involves certain degrees of a predisposition, and any given situation requires the right mix of a particular predisposition to be optimally handled. So the very passive (but still happy in general) woman won't be able to handle a situation that requires a good deal of assertiveness. Just as a man who is too rational won't be able to handle a task that requires support and empathy. But this is a problem with gender in general and not a particular gender per se, and even here it's not a problem with gender in itself but only in relation to circumstance.

 

[Received]

As for toxicity, that depends on the person toward him- or herself and also in relation to others (there's intrapersonal and interpersonal toxicity relative to gender). Something is toxic in the sense of male or female toxicity if there's too much of a good thing -- which I interpret as being too much on one side of the gender continuum for your own happiness, for the happiness of others, or for what needs to be done (which ultimately traces back to the other two forms). Gender toxicity is like diabetes: we need glucose, but too much can harm us. Except here the harm isn't physical but psychological -- that which inhibits happiness.

 

[Tetra]

Okay, so after some thought... I don't think there is "toxic femininity". To define toxic femininity we would need to define what makes a woman, a woman. There isn't a way to do such a thing. A woman defines who she is, nothing more. There are I suppose traditional gender roles, but I don't necessarily think those are anything more than a social construct.

When saying "toxic masculinity", I think it would be better described simply as toxicity in general, however, the reason toxic masculinity is a thing and not toxic femininity, isn't because of gender roles, it's because the notion is tied to patriarchy. Toxic masculinity by nature presupposes patriarchy and the oppression of women.

 

[victorinus]

Be fruitful, and multiply
-
femininity attracts the male so the above command is achieved

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I think there have always been stereotypes of how men/women should be in their lives. I know growing up in the 80s, kids in school would say "Your gay!" because I was, in their eyes, feminine. I hated sports, I didn't care about acting macho. I liked reading, nature, being laid back. I'd talk to girls more then boys. There are still people who say things like I must be gay because I don't act like men do. Primarily again because I am not into sports. Not sure why sports is a "male thing".

Its like my wife and her twin sister. Despite being identical twins, they are very much diffrent. My wife the girly girl. Loves dresses, shoes, likes romance movies...etc. Where as her sister dresses like a guy (jeans, tshirts), likes short hair, can be more physical, likes sports...etc. Though that in itself is stereotyping what makes a man a man and a woman a woman.

Sort of like how theres the stereotype that women are weak and mousy and need defending by men. An annoying stereotype because its not true. Maybe some women are more "soft" inside, but it doesn't mean its how women are. I'm more "soft" inside but need no protection. I'm not weak.

I think this is why kids today grow up confused as about their sexuality. The world first tells them how a certain sex should act, then later tells them they may not be a certain sexuality if they don't act that way. So they think crazy thoughts.

 

[bhsmte]

Determining what is toxic and what isn't, is highly subjective.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I don't think the command to be fruitful is for every person today

I'm going to jump in again and agree with you. God did the command to humans to "be fruitful and multiply".

I cannot believe He meant, "Keep breeding until there's no place to stand".

Which is not to say that Motherhood and Fatherhood are not proper and honorable functions to perform. They most certainly are; probably one of the most important given to humanity.

Nor is this to endorse or promote abortion as a birth control measure.

 

[Zoii]

Be fruitful, and multiply
-
femininity attracts the male so the above command is achieved

I am who I am, including how I dress. I am not who I am - or how I dress because I am seeking out a guy or intending to "multiply". But I am feminine. I dress kinda quirky (I'm arty) and I'm an art and surfing nerd. I just don't regard what I do as being about men.

 

[Gadarene]

In another thread (here: Male college students to undergo ‘critical self-reflection’ of masculinity ) there is some discussion of the idea of "toxic masculinity," and the question was raised about whether we have corresponding ideas of "toxic femininity."

Well, we should given that one of the big things under the umbrella of toxic masculinity is sexual abuse.

Women commit sexual abuse too, therefore that is toxic femininity also.

There is nothing under the banner of toxic femininity in terms of negative/criminal behaviours directed at others that women do not do, so toxic femininity will have some overlap with toxic masculinity.

If this makes the notion of "toxic X" seem redundant, good. I'd rather we didn't try and tie people's negative behaviour to their gender, particularly if we are only going to do so with one gender to a greater extent than the other or not using the same sorts of descriptions/terminology.

However if I was going to conceptualise toxic femininity the way toxic masculinity usually is, i.e. singling one gender out for its responsibility in a particular problem even though both genders share in responsibility for it, then I would say that playing the victim, becoming easily hurt/offended, and lying about rape fall under the banner of toxic femininity.

 

[Gadarene]

Not a woman here, but I find it curious that the topic came up in the context of people in another thread thinking that it's somehow sexist to talk about toxic masculinity if we're not also going to entertain the idea of toxic femininity, as though because one has been identified there has to also be the other...as though biology or socialization or whatever operates on the basis of 'fairness' and the assumption that men and women are essentially mirrors of one another or whatever the thinking is here. Maybe it's my linguistics training kicking in again, but I can't help but think: What if we just don't have that term because there's no corresponding phenomenon or theory to refer to by that label? That doesn't mean that there can't be 'toxic' things about femininity anyway, but just in terms of being sociologically-recognized to the point where there'd be seminars about it or whatever...that doesn't seem to be happening, but that doesn't mean that it's appropriate to assume that it's 'sexist' that it isn't happening.

Hmmm...what do we call it when institutions treat the genders differently for no good reason....

Also, from what little I understand about the concept of toxic masculinity (basically from having to watch the film "Fight Club" in a film theory class in college many years ago; a thoroughly unpleasant experience), it seems like it's about the expression of masculinity in a manner that hurts men and their relationship to themselves, in the sense of causing a lot of mental illness, low self-esteem, aimlessness, etc. All the stuff that men might get wound up about when it comes to ideas of 'being a man', to the point of literally being driven crazy when they don't measure up, a la Elliot Rodgers (a recent American murderer who killed women as 'punishment' for not being chosen by them romantically)

It's funny though, because the people talking loudest about toxic masculinity blow a gasket when men actually try and get together and talk about these things in ways they don't approve of.

So really in practice, toxic masculinity focuses more on how men harm others rather than men harm themselves.

Is there anything similar to that for women or young girls? I'm not sure, or at least I don't think I see it in the examples in the OP. For instance, I know women who quite enjoy fashion and looking fashionable, but none who have ever been driven up the wall by it. I suppose as in anything there could be some context in which a person would fixate on things to an unhealthy level, but I don't think that's any more likely among women or concerning 'womanly things' than it would be among men or concerning 'manly things'. Yes, Imelda Marcos supposedly had hundreds of pairs of shoes, but she was also a corrupt millionaire kleptocrat so that was more evidence of her decadent lifestyle set against the context of the country that she bilked out of tons of money while her people starved than anything that should be looked at as "see how dumb women are/look at the silly stuff they spend money on when they have it" or whatever. Comedian and television host Jay Leno has a collection of something like two dozen cars and nobody bats an eye at that, despite the fact that it's equally a waste of money and furthermore a collection of stereotypically 'masculine' things.

I can't help but notice that about the list of feminine traits in the OP: these are things that stereotypically annoy men, which is in itself not comparable to men hurting themselves (what toxic masculinity is supposed to be about). So maybe that's why 'toxic femininity' has not developed into a salient concept.

I was about to say eating disorders. But then people usually blame society for women's issues, whereas with men issues they blame men for them. So maybe eating disorders are still the fault of society rather than the women themselves.

But this is patriarchy through and through here. When women have issues, it's because they're poor helpless agents who must suffer the whims of everyone around them. When men have issues, even deep-rooted social ones, it's their own fault and they just need to man up and get on with it. They're only doing it to themselves, after all.

 

[gentlejah]

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...meeting.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140824083115

 

[Paidiske]

I don't think I agree, Gadarene. Patriarchy causes problems for women and men, and both women and men are constrained and sometimes oppressed by the social structures they inhabit.

 

[Cimorene]

I think with both masculinity & femininity the problem is with a lack of flexibility when people don't fit within what society has decided each should be. Like with that thread about men who are the new faces for Maybelline. I didn't think that was weird at all, the makeup artist who did my makeup for prom was a man and he was totally on point. He wore makeup. Other men were mocking Maybelline, bc to them it's not masculine for a man to wear makeup. Why not, if they enjoy it? I pointed out that Alexander the Great had worn makeup & it was common for men to at that time, & was kinda mocked for it. Then otoh there are women who don't want to wear makeup, but they get judged for it, like they're lazy & letting themselves go, bc society has decided that women should wear makeup & if they don't they're not feminine enough. Then like how there are families where the dad wants to be a SAH parent & the mom works & bc that doesn't fit within how things used to done, that's somehow wrong.

 

[Gadarene]

I don't think I agree, Gadarene. Patriarchy causes problems for women and men, and both women and men are constrained and sometimes oppressed by the social structures they inhabit.

It isn't universal, but generally, that patriarchal men=active, women=passive trope runs right through even allegedly antipatriarchal movements like feminism.

Men are expected to get on with their issues, or if they are begrudgingly accepted to exist, they are usually immediately blamed on men themselves, either individually ("men don't talk about their problems" etc even though we condition men into this) or collectively ("that's not women's fault because women don't have power" even though everyone reinforces every sort of gender stereotype to some degree, so no gender is innocent).

When women have issues, the notion of victim blaming for any of it is harshly struck down, and women must be saved by society. Look at the sheer number of attempts to enlist people - particularly men - to help solve women's issues, in a way that simply isn't done the other way around.

 

[Anguspure]

In another thread (here: Male college students to undergo ‘critical self-reflection’ of masculinity ) there is some discussion of the idea of "toxic masculinity," and the question was raised about whether we have corresponding ideas of "toxic femininity."

I said that I didn't think we use the term, but that our culture does have negative perceptions and stereotypes of women which are seen as harmful and needing to change. (As I described it: The idea of women as passive, relationship-oriented rather than task-oriented, emotional rather than rational, obsessed with frivolity such as fashion and excessive personal grooming, and so on, is pervasive and persistent. Add in the stereotypes of social disempowerment - woman as nag, woman as leech, woman as unable to cope with stressful workplaces - and so on).

Not everyone agreed with me (the horror!), so I thought I'd not derail that thread but start this one to ask people - and especially the women of the forum - for their experiences of perceptions of femininity, and whether we are judged for being feminine (whatever we mean by that), and pressured to be something else.

In NZ the idea of toxic femininity, or at least toxic feminism was addressed in a book called "The Sisterhood" by Murray Ball. It is now all but unavailable and the last word from Murray on the subject involved a whole lot of forelock pulling groveling and apologizing....