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Problems with femininity?

teresa

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These two statements seem contradictory. On the one hand they can control their emotions, but they also don't know how to manage these intense emotions?



It is. It's also amazing how such simple causes can in some cases lead to domestic abuse situations. I counseled an adolescent who was totally "normal" until he realized his sister was being fondled by a close family member; the moment he realized this his world totally changed, and he developed significant anger issues -- such that you see in domestic abuse situations, though he wasn't in a domestic abuse situation at the time.

I was way too green at the time to appropriately theorize as to what was going on to cause his change, but my sense looking back now is that his interpersonal schema significantly changed from something like "people can be trusted" to "anyone can hurt me or people I care about at any time and I might not be aware of it," the latter schema creating the softer insecurity and hurt that's covered up by the secondary emotion of anger. If I were more experienced at the time when I counseled him, I would have tried to focus on the softer emotion underlying his anger and found extreme vulnerability and sadness/unresolved grief regarding his sister.

Thank you, interesting post, you are better at writing and thinking than I am for sure. My apologies for being confused in my writing style, as I'm struggling to find the best words to try and put together.

I admire you for writing so well.

I will attempt to re-say what I mean, but I may not get it right again.

I think that learning to communicate appropriately is a skill or set of skills.

Young children may not learn these skills at home, but they may learn that anger is "bad" and therefore don't learn how to manage it.

So they may be every ones friend and buddy and then explode at home behind closed doors.

They never learned the skills involved in say, being assertive.

eek, is this making any sense to you?
 
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Thank you, interesting post, you are better at writing and thinking than I am for sure. My apologies for being confused in my writing style, as I'm struggling to find the best words to try and put together.

I admire you for writing so well.

I'm humbled, thanks. :wave:

I will attempt to re-say what I mean, but I may not get it right again.

I think that learning to communicate appropriately is a skill or set of skills.

Young children may not learn these skills at home, but they may learn that anger is "bad" and therefore don't learn how to manage it.

So they may be every ones friend and buddy and then explode at home behind closed doors.

They never learned the skills involved in say, being assertive.

eek, is this making any sense to you?

Yes, makes perfect sense. I think your example definitely happens with domestic abuse situations, where people are able to remain even totally coolheaded in any situation except one involving a partner. But I think there's a reason for this that still fits the idea that they have poor impulse control -- namely they have poor impulse control, leading to anger and even violence, only in relationship contexts. The bomb is only sparked by the partner, or more particularly the beliefs and schemas (filters, deep beliefs) that are activated unintentionally by the partner's behavior.

So a woman doesn't want to have sex with her husband, and the husband snaps, ultimately beating her. But what happens under the hood, so to speak? He snaps (has intense anger), but this anger is secondary to a primary feeling of hurt, based in the belief that, e.g., "she doesn't care about me," related to a deeper schema (which get flipped on or off at a moment's notice) of abandonment, maybe from early experience by one or more family members when he was growing up -- all this happening in milliseconds, the behavior of acting out the anger following. Well, it's obvious to think that the woman might care deeply about him and doesn't want to have sex for other reasons -- even for reasons of fearing him, which creates a negative cycle (her fear of him leads to incapacity to have sex with him leads to interpretations by him of rejection and therefore hurt and anger leading to violence, which in turn leads to more fear by her...).

It's all about the abuser's interpretation and the feelings that go with it, and when we're talking about anger we're almost always talking about more primary, softer feelings which are usually covered up even more by shame, as well as certain cognitive tendencies that go with the anger itself (like rigidity, black and white thinking, etc.). So you have a whole complex web of intrapersonal (within the person) stuff going on that creates a complex web of interpersonal stuff. But, this complex stuff can usually be relatively easily comprehended according to schema theory (usually schemas of abandonment and defectiveness, which create shame and hurt very easily which are then covered up by anger as a secondary emotion for protective reasons) and accessing primary emotions underlying anger.

All that said, I'd rather work with sexual predators (who are there of their own choosing, i.e., want to get better of their own free will) than anger. Not because anger is hard; it's just not my thing. Something about the irony of extreme weakness and sensitivity (the hurt mentioned above) covered up by what our society interprets as strength (physical aggression that leads to domestic abuse) just isn't appealing to me. That and it's always a little intimidating to see a male, especially if he's bigger than me, go into anger mode in the office.
 
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Paidiske

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I did quite a bit of work on prevention of domestic violence, and they said that most abusers had three key deeply-held beliefs in common:

- that violence was (at least in this context) acceptable
- that men were superior to women
- that gender roles are/should be rigidly defined

The work we were doing was looking at dismantling particularly the last two beliefs within the framework of Christian belief.

I don't know whether women who abuse have the reverse sort of beliefs; whether they believe that women are superior to men. But I imagine that that belief is much less common generally, because it's not the narrative we're constantly presented with.
 
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I did quite a bit of work on prevention of domestic violence, and they said that most abusers had three key deeply-held beliefs in common:

- that violence was (at least in this context) acceptable
- that men were superior to women
- that gender roles are/should be rigidly defined

The work we were doing was looking at dismantling particularly the last two beliefs within the framework of Christian belief.

I don't know whether women who abuse have the reverse sort of beliefs; whether they believe that women are superior to men. But I imagine that that belief is much less common generally, because it's not the narrative we're constantly presented with.

I don't doubt any of these. My guess is the reason they think violence is acceptable is because they interpret the hurt or slights they experience from the women as intentional. I really don't think 90% of anger would be anger if the angry person interpreted the other's behavior as not being intentional.

I'd also wager -- shooting from the hip here -- that a sense of superiority and self-justifying abuse go hand in hand. If you think you're the abuser, the other person the abused, then this indicates by its very language a power dynamic where you're at least self-perceived as the stronger one.
 
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teresa

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My husband at the time I was married in my twenties, became enraged at me for not eating enough, Recieved.

I read your message and wonder if he must have thought that I was intentionally trying to hurt him.

He said he could feel all of my vertebrae in my back when he hugged me and boxed my ears to put some sense into me.

That was an excruciating pain for both my eardrums as well as my heart.

I never thought my husband would have ever hurt me and believed he was my protector.

He didn't understand my dancing with a company class so as to get into the company, required some slimming down for a better body line.

He told me I was unattractive to him and he would not be intimate with me anymore.

He must have been hurting deep inside then?
 
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My husband at the time I was married in my twenties, became enraged at me for not eating enough, Recieved.

I read your message and wonder if he must have thought that I was intentionally trying to hurt him.

He said he could feel all of my vertebrae in my back when he hugged me and boxed my ears to put some sense into me.

That was an excruciating pain for both my eardrums as well as my heart.

I never thought my husband would have ever hurt me and believed he was my protector.

He didn't understand my dancing with a company class so as to get into the company, required some slimming down for a better body line.

He told me I was unattractive to him and he would not be intimate with me anymore.

He must have been hurting deep inside then?

God bless you.

Yes, I think there's a very high likelihood of hurt being there. Happy people are pretty much incapable of acting this way. Whatever it is, there's not a single thing you did that caused his behavior. It was interpreted by him -- totally his interpretation, which doesn't necessarily mean he created this interpretation, as it might be the result of his earlier experiences -- which led to his emotional reaction.

How do you think he would answer this question: what does it mean to you if your wife doesn't look the way you want? Keep asking "what does it mean" to the answers as you think he'd respond until you reach something that really hits home. I'm not asking you to put it here unless you want to. Feel free to PM me if this is something you're still struggling with.

ETA: my hunch is that he interpreted you not changing the way he wanted as an intentional jab at him, which would be the hurtful part -- like an act of disobedience, and "if you really loved me, you would do what I want," therefore you didn't love him = the sting of hurt, perhaps based in previous misinterpretations of others, and possibly at least one person who did fail at loving him in some way. As for his preference for you to look a certain way -- that might be based in some obsession that has nothing or little to do with hurt. This is all a hunch, but I'm amazed at how universal basic needs and interactions can be regardless of the couple.
 
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teresa

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God bless you.

Yes, I think there's a very high likelihood of hurt being there. Happy people are pretty much incapable of acting this way. Whatever it is, there's not a single thing you did that caused his behavior. It was interpreted by him -- totally his interpretation, which doesn't necessarily mean he created this interpretation, as it might be the result of his earlier experiences -- which led to his emotional reaction.

How do you think he would answer this question: what does it mean to you if your wife doesn't look the way you want? Keep asking "what does it mean" to the answers as you think he'd respond until you reach something that really hits home. I'm not asking you to put it here unless you want to. Feel free to PM me if this is something you're still struggling with.

ETA: my hunch is that he interpreted you not changing the way he wanted as an intentional jab at him, which would be the hurtful part -- like an act of disobedience, and "if you really loved me, you would do what I want," therefore you didn't love him = the sting of hurt, perhaps based in previous misinterpretations of others, and possibly at least one person who did fail at loving him in some way. As for his preference for you to look a certain way -- that might be based in some obsession that has nothing or little to do with hurt. This is all a hunch, but I'm amazed at how universal basic needs and interactions can be regardless of the couple.

thank you so much for helping me tonight. You are a healer, its obvious.

I never got over my husband and took it so hard that I got married and the marriage failed, I have never forgiven myself. Never.

This is a heavy weight that has burdened me to self loathing.

He would get so mad at me if I didn't look a certain way.

This is something so painful.

I've never talked about it before to anyone because its been unbearable.
 
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thank you so much for helping me tonight. You are a healer, its obvious.

I never got over my husband and took it so hard that I got married and the marriage failed, I have never forgiven myself. Never.

This is a heavy weight that has burdened me to self loathing.

He would get so mad at me if I didn't look a certain way.

This is something so painful.

I've never talked about it before to anyone because its been unbearable.

What's it like talking about it now?
 
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teresa

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What's it like talking about it now?

whoops missed this post

its very scary, I'm crying and shaking....

its after one am and I have to go now to sleep or cry to sleep, but I think that thoughts of him and feeling remorse as I cry would be helpful to help me to calm down.

I'm so sad.

peace to you and love in christ

goodnight
 
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lets talk again another nite here
I'm taking a break now...
look forward to our discussions again...

thank you for your kindness!

Yeah, take a break. This was a really courageous leap for you to make, and I can only imagine how overwhelming it must be right now -- all these emotions, images, and thoughts hitting you at once. Distraction can be good. If you can, emotional journaling -- where you write out how you're feeling and thoughts and any timelines connected to it, without needing to get to the heavy stuff based in your past -- can be helpful.

I wouldn't recommend continuing the discussion here openly. I'm sorry if I seemed to lead you on. Please feel free to message me and we can talk about it in some detail and I can give feedback and recommendations.
 
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Ana the Ist

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In another thread (here: Male college students to undergo ‘critical self-reflection’ of masculinity ) there is some discussion of the idea of "toxic masculinity," and the question was raised about whether we have corresponding ideas of "toxic femininity."

I said that I didn't think we use the term, but that our culture does have negative perceptions and stereotypes of women which are seen as harmful and needing to change. (As I described it: The idea of women as passive, relationship-oriented rather than task-oriented, emotional rather than rational, obsessed with frivolity such as fashion and excessive personal grooming, and so on, is pervasive and persistent. Add in the stereotypes of social disempowerment - woman as nag, woman as leech, woman as unable to cope with stressful workplaces - and so on).

Not everyone agreed with me (the horror!), so I thought I'd not derail that thread but start this one to ask people - and especially the women of the forum - for their experiences of perceptions of femininity, and whether we are judged for being feminine (whatever we mean by that), and pressured to be something else.

Perceptions of femininity?

One of the common perceptions I've noticed amongst men is that "all women are crazy...it's just a matter of which kind of crazy and how crazy they are" as a general rule of male/female relationships. Whether that means a boyfriend and girlfriend, fiancee, married...you name it...there are a lot of guys who kind of ascribe to that "rule" about women as a sort of generic catch-all explanation of their horrible/unpredictable/completely predictable/overreacting/underwhelming/ emotional responses to certain situations. At least amongst men I've known well, which isn't many, they've all described current and former love interests in that "crazy" dynamic in some manner. As relationships go...I think men have a tendency to eventually think that "crazy" aspect of their love interest is something that they need to "just learn to deal with" or eventually leave. I can elaborate on this if any women don't understand what I'm talking about, but I'd be pretty surprised if any men didn't know what I'm saying here. That would be an example of a "toxic femininity" perception that I believe a lot of men hold.

An example of a "toxic femininity" perception that women hold is actually a bit easier to come up with. The "passive aggressive" compliment/insult dynamic that a lot of women have with other women (and often men) is a rather commonly known stereotype. One that's perhaps less commonly known or admitted to by a lot of women is the "female competition" stereotype. That one is the general attitude of women, particularly unmarried...but also married, to view other women (even all other women in some cases) as their "competition" for no reason other than their own insecurities and jealousy. I can testify to seeing this one all the time. My wife happens to be a very attractive woman by most anyone's standards...and I've seen the looks, heard the comments, and witnessed the aggression and jealousy of women who are total strangers and really have no good reasons for treating my wife the way they do. My wife has literally no real female friends...and in the cases of almost every single female friend she's had in the past they've all been either cruel to her behind her back or outwardly hostile to her face. I've seen women in public shoot her mean glares and mutter unkind comments for no reason at all. It's behavior that's pretty hard to understand from a male perspective but I'd definitely call it "toxic femininity".
 
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Paidiske

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That's interesting, Ana. I haven't really encountered too much of the competition stuff around looks (although I'm a realist there so I understand why!) But what I do notice is that some women do not respond well to other women in leadership/authority roles. I have had far more difficulty, in my role, from women who *in theory* support women in ministry, but in practice seem to find me too threatening (and other women in ministry tell me they find the same).
 
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Dave-W

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He must have been hurting deep inside then?
H.D. Thoreau wrote in "Civil Disobedience and Other Essays" that most men live lives of quiet desperation. I think that is probably true. It is how well we deal with that desperation that determines if it goes violent or not.
 
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Ana the Ist

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That's interesting, Ana. I haven't really encountered too much of the competition stuff around looks (although I'm a realist there so I understand why!) But what I do notice is that some women do not respond well to other women in leadership/authority roles. I have had far more difficulty, in my role, from women who *in theory* support women in ministry, but in practice seem to find me too threatening (and other women in ministry tell me they find the same).


Do they ever say what it is they find threatening about it?
 
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Paidiske

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They're not that open about it. It's the pattern of subtle digs, undermining, passive-aggressiveness etc that I can observe. I've never been able to have the sort of conversation with one of these women where they're able to say, (for example) "Look, I'm just really jealous that you're being given opportunities I wasn't," or whatever.
 
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Ana the Ist

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They're not that open about it. It's the pattern of subtle digs, undermining, passive-aggressiveness etc that I can observe. I've never been able to have the sort of conversation with one of these women where they're able to say, (for example) "Look, I'm just really jealous that you're being given opportunities I wasn't," or whatever.

It sounds like you know exactly what kind of behavior I'm talking about.
 
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But does domestic violence happen because men can't manage their emotions?

Or does it happen because abusive men can manage their emotions, and use them to control and dominate another?

I thought the research showed it was more the latter.

My experience of domestic violence happened because my (very much ex-)girlfriend couldn't take her drink and "got a bit punchy" when she was drunk.
This lasted for about six months (during the rugby season, so what damage she inflicted was indistinguishable from my normal Saturday afternoon knocks and abrasions, until the season ended and the bruising didn't).
She swore off the drink for a couple of months, until we went to a wedding. She got drunk, and managed to break a bone in her hand on my face (and my cheekbone at the same time). At which point I got out, and stayed out, and never looked back.

I'm not sure what her emotional state was, at the time I was more concerned with getting some medical attention.
 
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