Problems with Ezekiel 38-39 as Prophecy for Our Time

[Douggg]

With any other interpretation than a huge earth directed Coronal Mass Ejection, his prophecy in Joel 2:1-11, does make nonsense.

It is a plague of locust, historic. And even then, it might be allegorical. And different parts are far into the future, into the end times.

 

[Marilyn C]

You are reading the OT the way the blind Pharisees read it. But remember God blinded them so they could not understand. If you learn about the Kingdom from Jesus in the gospels, you will see that the OT prophecies don't make sense until you interpret them symbolically. But you must first learn his view of the kingdom. But, only the born again can see it.

The kingdom is the RULE of Jesus from heaven over Israel, who will rule the nations. That is what the OT prophets wrote. And that is what Jesus reminded the people of Israel.

God owns the whole world and everything and everyone in it. He never gave it away, and He upholds it. It is God`s great kingdom. So....it is not a `place,` the kingdom that has to come, but RULERSHIP that God is talking about.

 

[Marilyn C]

On the Far North:


London and Berlin are almost as far north as Moscow.

Jerusalem 31 degrees N latitude

London 51 degrees N latitude

Berlin 52 degrees N latitude

Moscow 55 degrees N latitude

Oslo 59 degrees N latitude


Oslo is further north than Moscow, although Norway isn't considered a military power.

England and Germany did send knights, crusaders, to the Holy Land during the Crusades. A crusader state was established and lasted for a time but was eventually destroyed by the Moslems. I'm not sure if you could say that God opposed the plans of the Crusaders, but the cause eventually failed.

It says the northern most quarter of the earth. Quite plain. Look up the Hebrew yourself.

 

[Dale]

Joel 2:1-11 is not prophesying about human activity.
My REBible says.....a vast and countless host appears.....

Careful study of all this prophecy, confirms that it refers to a massive strike of ejecta from the sun. It will appear as the morning spreads upon the mountains, as the earth rotates.
It is like a mighty army, but what it does is unlike any human army.

Many other prophesies prove how this sudden and shocking blast from the sun, will change our world and set the scene for all what is prophesied to happen before Jesus Returns.
Check many articles on this subject, free at logostelos.info

I don't think it works that way. A solar flare is basically a blast of protons from the sun. When they hit the earth's magnetic field, they go into orbit in line with the magnetic field. They enter the earth's atmosphere mainly at the poles, which is why we have the aurora borealis in the north. It doesn't particularly affect mountains but it could fry electrical networks. The countries near the north and south poles will be the most affected. That means Israel probably won't see the effects.

 

[Dale]

It says the northern most quarter of the earth. Quite plain. Look up the Hebrew yourself.

It is not so much a question of what the Hebrew says as what the prophet meant.

Look at the way the phrase "far north" is used in the Revised Standard Version.

In the Psalms, the location of the Temple on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem is called "the far north."

The Israelites were not used to traveling thousands of miles. Distances that seem near to us seem "far" to them.


Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised
in the city of our God!
His holy mountain, 2 beautiful in elevation,
is the joy of all the earth,
Mount Zion, in the far north,
the city of the great King.
Psalms 48:1-2 RSV


We find the same meaning in Isaiah, where Mt. Zion is called the "mount of assembly" in "the far north." We need to be cautious in interpreting these phrases.

I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far north;
Isaiah 14:13 RSV

 

[Marilyn C]

It is not so much a question of what the Hebrew says as what the prophet meant.

Look at the way the phrase "far north" is used in the Revised Standard Version.

In the Psalms, the location of the Temple on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem is called "the far north."

The Israelites were not used to traveling thousands of miles. Distances that seem near to us seem "far" to them.


Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised
in the city of our God!
His holy mountain, 2 beautiful in elevation,
is the joy of all the earth,
Mount Zion, in the far north,
the city of the great King.
Psalms 48:1-2 RSV


We find the same meaning in Isaiah, where Mt. Zion is called the "mount of assembly" in "the far north." We need to be cautious in interpreting these phrases.

I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far north;
Isaiah 14:13 RSV

The `far north` in Ps. 48 refers to Jerusalem, Mount Zion and the city, with the city on the far north side.

As to Isaiah `far north` that refers to a realm in heaven.

You really must read CONTEXT.

 

[keras]

Jesus Returns in the midst of a war. The timing he says he returns is when the beast and the kings of the earth are gathered at Armegeddon.
That has nothing to do with the sun.

Quite right, Armageddon is not the Day of the Lords wrath, then He simply kills the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word.
At the Sixth Seal, the great Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, He will use a CME to literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about that Day, years before His Return.

 

[Dave L]

The kingdom is the RULE of Jesus from heaven over Israel, who will rule the nations. That is what the OT prophets wrote. And that is what Jesus reminded the people of Israel.

God owns the whole world and everything and everyone in it. He never gave it away, and He upholds it. It is God`s great kingdom. So....it is not a `place,` the kingdom that has to come, but RULERSHIP that God is talking about.

The Church is Israel.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Quite right, Armageddon is not the Day of the Lords wrath, then He simply kills the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word.
At the Sixth Seal, the great Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, He will use a CME to literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about that Day, years before His Return.

Jesus said he was coming as a thief in Revelation 16 between the 6th and 7th bowlfuls of the wrath of God. There are 6 bowls of God's wrath poured out on the earth before Christ says he comes. Then after the 7th and last bowl of God's wrath is poured out scripture says it is done.
Sounds to be like there no more bowlfuls of wrath left to pour.

Revelation 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, "It is done!"
Revelation 16:18 And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth--so mighty was the great quake.
Revelation 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.


That was all the wrath. No CME.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Church is Israel.

Not true.

 

[keras]

It is a plague of locust, historic. And even then, it might be allegorical. And different parts are far into the future, into the end times.

Locusts do not do what is described. Your post demonstrates that you don't know what you are talking about.

Yes; into the end times, that is: NOW. Within our lifetimes.

Not true.

The established Church is not the Jewish State of Israel.

But the true Church of Jesus Christ, every born again individual, ARE the Overcomers for God - His Israelite people.

 

[Dave L]

Not true.

The Church is Israel Comparison

Called; Old Testament
1. Saints (Num. 16:3: Deut. 33:3)
2. Elect (Deut. 7:6,7; 14:2)
3. Beloved (Deut. 7:7; 4:37)
4. Called (Isa. 41:9; 43:1)
5. Church (Ps. 89:5; Mic. 2:5 (LXX)Act. 7:38; Heb. 2:12)
6. Flock (Ezek. 34; Ps. 77:20)
7. Holy Nation (Exod. 19:5,6)
8. Kingdom of Priests (Exod.19:5,6)
9. Peculiar Treasure (Exod. 19:5,6)
10. God's People (Hos. 1:9,10)
11. Holy People (Deut. 7:6)
12. People of Inheritance (Deut.4:20)
13. God's Tabernacle in Israel (Lev.26:11)
14. God walks among them (Lev. 26:12)
15. Twelve Patriarchs
16. Christ married to them (Isa.54:5;Jer.3:14;Hos.2:19;Jer.6:2; 31:32)

Called in the NT;

1. Saints (Eph. 1:1; Rom. 1:7)
2. Elect (Col. 3:12; Titus 1:1)
3. Beloved (Col.3:12; 1 Thess 1:4)
4. Called (Rom. 1:6,7; lCor.l:2)
5. Church (Eph. 1:1;Acts 20:28)
6. Flock (Luke 12:32; 1 Pet. 5:2)
7. Holy Nation (1 Pet. 2:9)
8. Kingdom of Priests (1 Pet. 2:9)
9. Peculiar Treasure (1 Pet. 2:9)
10. God's People (1 Pet. 2:10)
11. Holy People (1 Pet. 1:15,16)
12. People of Inheritance (Eph. 1:18)
13. God's Tabernacle in Church (John 1:14)
14. God walks among them (2 Cor.6:16-18)
15. Twelve Apostles
16. Christ married to them (Eph.5:22,23;2Cor.11:2)

 

[klutedavid]

The Church is Israel Comparison

Called; Old Testament
1. Saints (Num. 16:3: Deut. 33:3)
2. Elect (Deut. 7:6,7; 14:2)
3. Beloved (Deut. 7:7; 4:37)
4. Called (Isa. 41:9; 43:1)
5. Church (Ps. 89:5; Mic. 2:5 (LXX)Act. 7:38; Heb. 2:12)
6. Flock (Ezek. 34; Ps. 77:20)
7. Holy Nation (Exod. 19:5,6)
8. Kingdom of Priests (Exod.19:5,6)
9. Peculiar Treasure (Exod. 19:5,6)
10. God's People (Hos. 1:9,10)
11. Holy People (Deut. 7:6)
12. People of Inheritance (Deut.4:20)
13. God's Tabernacle in Israel (Lev.26:11)
14. God walks among them (Lev. 26:12)
15. Twelve Patriarchs
16. Christ married to them (Isa.54:5;Jer.3:14;Hos.2:19;Jer.6:2; 31:32)

Called in the NT;

1. Saints (Eph. 1:1; Rom. 1:7)
2. Elect (Col. 3:12; Titus 1:1)
3. Beloved (Col.3:12; 1 Thess 1:4)
4. Called (Rom. 1:6,7; lCor.l:2)
5. Church (Eph. 1:1;Acts 20:28)
6. Flock (Luke 12:32; 1 Pet. 5:2)
7. Holy Nation (1 Pet. 2:9)
8. Kingdom of Priests (1 Pet. 2:9)
9. Peculiar Treasure (1 Pet. 2:9)
10. God's People (1 Pet. 2:10)
11. Holy People (1 Pet. 1:15,16)
12. People of Inheritance (Eph. 1:18)
13. God's Tabernacle in Church (John 1:14)
14. God walks among them (2 Cor.6:16-18)
15. Twelve Apostles
16. Christ married to them (Eph.5:22,23;2Cor.11:2)

Israel was the shadow kingdom. The church is the fulfilled kingdom.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Church is Israel Comparison

Called; Old Testament
1. Saints (Num. 16:3: Deut. 33:3)
2. Elect (Deut. 7:6,7; 14:2)
3. Beloved (Deut. 7:7; 4:37)
4. Called (Isa. 41:9; 43:1)
5. Church (Ps. 89:5; Mic. 2:5 (LXX)Act. 7:38; Heb. 2:12)
6. Flock (Ezek. 34; Ps. 77:20)
7. Holy Nation (Exod. 19:5,6)
8. Kingdom of Priests (Exod.19:5,6)
9. Peculiar Treasure (Exod. 19:5,6)
10. God's People (Hos. 1:9,10)
11. Holy People (Deut. 7:6)
12. People of Inheritance (Deut.4:20)
13. God's Tabernacle in Israel (Lev.26:11)
14. God walks among them (Lev. 26:12)
15. Twelve Patriarchs
16. Christ married to them (Isa.54:5;Jer.3:14;Hos.2:19;Jer.6:2; 31:32)

Called in the NT;

1. Saints (Eph. 1:1; Rom. 1:7)
2. Elect (Col. 3:12; Titus 1:1)
3. Beloved (Col.3:12; 1 Thess 1:4)
4. Called (Rom. 1:6,7; lCor.l:2)
5. Church (Eph. 1:1;Acts 20:28)
6. Flock (Luke 12:32; 1 Pet. 5:2)
7. Holy Nation (1 Pet. 2:9)
8. Kingdom of Priests (1 Pet. 2:9)
9. Peculiar Treasure (1 Pet. 2:9)
10. God's People (1 Pet. 2:10)
11. Holy People (1 Pet. 1:15,16)
12. People of Inheritance (Eph. 1:18)
13. God's Tabernacle in Church (John 1:14)
14. God walks among them (2 Cor.6:16-18)
15. Twelve Apostles
16. Christ married to them (Eph.5:22,23;2Cor.11:2)

Thanks for the comparison. However there is some error there.

8. The Body of Christ are kings and priests but the OT saints are only a kingdom of priests. Note not kings.

12. The B/C has a different inheritance from Israel. B/C in heaven, Israel on earth.

15. B/C the Apostles from the ascended Lord, many. Israel - the 12 apostles.

16. The Body of Christ is Christ`s Body. Israel is symbolically the Bride. (meaning master) Note also the New Jerusalem is described as a Bride.

 

[Dale]

I'll give yet another reason why the Russians are not going to mount an offensive against Israel on horseback, either on the Golan Heights or anywhere else.

During WWII, the Soviet Union was woefully unprepared for the Nazi/German invasion. The Soviet Union was able to relocate factories to areas further east that the German Army could not reach. With those factories, the Soviets churned out tens of thousands of tanks. They stopped the German advance at the Battle of Kursk, an epic tank battle.

"The Battle of Kursk was the largest tank battle in history, involving some 6,000 tanks, 2,000,000 troops, and 4,000 aircraft. It marked the decisive end of the German offensive capability on the Eastern Front and cleared the way for the great Soviet offensives of 1944–45."

The Russians kicked the German Army out of Russia using tanks in WWII. The Russians learned that the only way to beat German tanks is with Russian tanks. The Russians aren't going to forget that lesson. In modern warfare, particularly land warfare, tanks are essential and tanks work.

Link
Battle of Kursk | World War II

 

[Marilyn C]

I'll give yet another reason why the Russians are not going to mount an offensive against Israel on horseback, either on the Golan Heights or anywhere else.

During WWII, the Soviet Union was woefully unprepared for the Nazi/German invasion. The Soviet Union was able to relocate factories to areas further east that the German Army could not reach. With those factories, the Soviets churned out tens of thousands of tanks. They stopped the German advance at the Battle of Kursk, an epic tank battle.

"The Battle of Kursk was the largest tank battle in history, involving some 6,000 tanks, 2,000,000 troops, and 4,000 aircraft. It marked the decisive end of the German offensive capability on the Eastern Front and cleared the way for the great Soviet offensives of 1944–45."

The Russians kicked the German Army out of Russia using tanks in WWII. The Russians learned that the only way to beat German tanks is with Russian tanks. The Russians aren't going to forget that lesson. In modern warfare, particularly land warfare, tanks are essential and tanks work.

Link
Battle of Kursk | World War II

Nice bit of info on the war. And yes tanks are very important. However Russia is not the only nation that is going against Israel. Thus I believe some of these other nations will use horses.

 

[Dave L]

Thanks for the comparison. However there is some error there.

8. The Body of Christ are kings and priests but the OT saints are only a kingdom of priests. Note not kings.

12. The B/C has a different inheritance from Israel. B/C in heaven, Israel on earth.

15. B/C the Apostles from the ascended Lord, many. Israel - the 12 apostles.

16. The Body of Christ is Christ`s Body. Israel is symbolically the Bride. (meaning master) Note also the New Jerusalem is described as a Bride.

It proves all that OT Israel symbolized, Nt Israel, the Church became the reality.

 

[Marilyn C]

It proves all that OT Israel symbolized, Nt Israel, the Church became the reality.

The plumb line is always the Lord.

`God....having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one, (unity and harmony) all things in Christ, both of which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him.` Eph. 1: 10)

And the `all things,` refers to rulership in all the realms God made.

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

So we see that God called Israel out of the nations to rule the nation on the earth under Christ.
Then God called the Body of Christ out of Israel and the nations to rule over them all in heaven under Christ.

It is all about RULERSHIP under Christ in every realm. That is why there is similarity but not exactly. For Israel has a king and many priests, whereas the Body of Christ ruling from the highest, are kings and priests. This is because the Lord Himself is the High priest and king, the Kingpriest.

 

[Dave L]

The plumb line is always the Lord.

`God....having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one, (unity and harmony) all things in Christ, both of which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him.` Eph. 1: 10)

And the `all things,` refers to rulership in all the realms God made.

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

So we see that God called Israel out of the nations to rule the nation on the earth under Christ.
Then God called the Body of Christ out of Israel and the nations to rule over them all in heaven under Christ.

It is all about RULERSHIP under Christ in every realm. That is why there is similarity but not exactly. For Israel has a king and many priests, whereas the Body of Christ ruling from the highest, are kings and priests. This is because the Lord Himself is the High priest and king, the Kingpriest.

God removed the unbelievers from Israel leaving only believers. And he added believing Gentiles in their place. He placed the unbelievers under his wrath until the end of time. With only those who accept Christ, he reunites with Israel, the Church.

 

[Dale]

`A PEOPLE come strong and great......
Like a strong people set in battle array...
They run like mighty men, they climb the wall like men of war, everyone in marches in formation, and they do not break ranks, they do not push each other;....` (Joel 2: 2, 5 - 8)

`I will remove far from you the northern army; and will drive him towards the eastern sea and his back towards the western sea;...` (Joel 2: 20)

Clearly they are people, and they get driven into a desolate area. From there Israel will go and bury the dead to cleanse the land before they start their sacrifices.

7 months takes us up to the time God`s word says they start the sacrifices.

Since you don't believe that the locusts in Joel are insects, it occurs to me that you think that you may think that locusts are not worthy of consideration by a Biblical prophet. After all, in modern times, we tend to assume that the food supply is secure.

Take a look at what the prophet Amos has to say about locusts.

“I gave you empty stomachs in every city
and lack of bread in every town,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.
Amos 4:6 NIV

This is followed by:

9 “Many times I struck your gardens and vineyards,
destroying them with blight and mildew.
Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.
Amos 4:9 NIV

In another passage, Amos indicates that the prayers of the prophets can avert some disasters, including plagues of locusts.

This is what the Sovereign Lord showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king’s share had been harvested and just as the late crops were coming up. 2 When they had stripped the land clean, I cried out, “Sovereign Lord, forgive! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!”
3 So the Lord relented.
“This will not happen,” the Lord said.
Amos 7:1-3 NIV

It is clear that Biblical prophets did at times prophecy that plagues of locusts would lead to famine.