Problems with Ezekiel 38-39 as Prophecy for Our Time

[Dale]

Many Christians concerned about the end times see the war described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 as imminent-- it could happen in our lifetimes.

For instance, Biblewriter.com says that this invasion of Israel will be "predominantly Muslim." Gog, mentioned in both chapters, could be "a name for the Last-Days' Dictator."

Apocalypsesoon.org says: "Ezekiel's war probably will occur soon after the coming conflict between Syria/Egypt and Israel, which could happen any moment. It's probable that the next war will be the 'hooks in the jaw' (Ezek.38:4) that draws Russia, Iran and their allies directly into this regional conflict."

Alphanewsdaily says: "In Ezekiel 38-39 the Bible warns this coming war between Russia, Iran, and Israel will take place sometime AFTER Israel would be re-gathered into Her land as a nation (which was fulfilled on May 14, 1948). "

Among the problems with this scenario are horses, Egypt, walls, bodies and arrows.

The prophecy in Ezekiel 38 & 39 is attributed directly to God. The "Sovereign Lord" either "says" or "declares" prophecy no less than fifteen times in two chapters, in the NIV. One of the things the Lord says is that the invading army will be on horseback. Ezekiel 38:5 says that "a great horde" will come from "the far north," "all of them riding on horses." No tanks, no jeeps, no trucks, no planes or helicopters, just horses.

Biblewriter.com dismisses this image of an ancient army and assures us that the army coming against Israel will be equipped with modern weapons. "God is giving the prophet a word picture of a heavily armed group of soldiers," we are told.

It looks like the literalists are only literal when it takes them where they want to go. The Word of God is literally true until the literalists decide otherwise. I have run into those who take the idea of a modern cavalry invasion seriously. Very unlikely. I will say more on arrows, horses and Armageddon in Post 2.

Those who say that Ezekiel predicts a modern invasion of Israel from the north repeatedly say that Egypt won't be involved. Biblewriter.com observes that Egypt has been an enemy of Israel from the beginning but finds no sign of Egypt in these chapters. BW calls it "one of the oddest aspects" of the prophecy.

Apocalypsesoon.org says that "Egypt and Syria" "are missing from Ezekiel."

The absence of Egypt would be puzzling since Egypt has the largest population in the Arab world. If the Arabs are going to attack Israel, Egyptian participation would seem to be a must. If the absence of Egypt is odd, stop worrying. These interpreters are simply wrong.
Ezekiel 38:5: " Persia, Cush[c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets ... " The NIV footnotes Cush: "That is, the upper Nile region." Ezekiel mentions Cush among the attackers, and Cush is part of Egypt. For simplicity, Cush is Egypt. How did learned interpreters miss this?

In Ezekiel 39:11, the Sovereign Lord describes the attitude of the invaders. "You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars."

Biblewriter.com sees this as pointing to modern times. In Ezekiel's time, important cities were walled for defense. Today, walls are obsolete, at least for that purpose, so we have "unwalled villages."

But does this description of towns without walls really point to modern Israel? It isn't obvious, especially when you realize that security fences serve the same purpose as walls.
On January 20, 2016, the Times of Israel carried the headline:
Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan.

Lead sentence: "Israel has begun work on a long security fence along its border with Jordan, the only one of its internationally recognized frontiers currently without a physical barrier." A much longer security fence had already been started on the border with Lebanon. There is also a modern security barrier around East Jerusalem.

Settlements in the territories are heavily walled or fenced. On February 16, 2016, NPR ran a story:
In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

"In the past months of increased violence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Palestinian attackers have cut or jumped fences surrounding Israeli settlements several times, stabbing and twice killing Israeli civilians."

The story has two photos of security fences connected to West Bank settlements. The notion of modern Israel as a land of unwalled or unfenced towns ignores a lot of facts. The area certainly isn't peaceful, with an unsuspecting population.

Ezekiel says that it will take seven months to bury the dead after the invaders are destroyed. Interpreters see this in terms of biological, chemical or nuclear warfare. (Yes, I know, we started with horses!)

Biblewriter.com says they "let the professionals carry the stuff away to a designated waste area. Sounds like the remains will be radioactive. Or toxic."

Alphanewsdaily says that "professionals" will bury the dead using procedures suitable for a "military nuclear/biological/chemical" situation.

Ezekiel doesn't really back this up and I'm not sure it makes sense. "All the people of the land will bury them," we are told in Ezekiel 39:13. That doesn't sound like the job is reserved for trained professionals. In Ezekiel 39:15, burials are handled by "the gravediggers." Still doesn't sound like professionals in special suits. (Quotes are NIV.) Another point that doesn't occur to these interpreters is that under Old Testament law, contact with a corpse, or a cemetery, creates ritual impurity. Jewish law requires burial as well, so there are reasons for burying enemy soldiers in designated places that have nothing to do with nuclear or chemical weapons.

Here's another problem. The theme of these two chapters of Ezekiel is that God defends Israel. Either God crushes the enemy invaders or He arranges for them to be destroyed. God hands Israel a victory which causes them to celebrate and glorify God. If considerable areas are left as a radioactive wasteland, that doesn't sound like much of a victory. If God's purpose is to defend Israel from ungodly opponents, surely He would do better.


Links

Bible Writer -- Revelation Study: Ezekiel's War (Ch. 38-39)

Apocalypse soon - The X files - EZEKIEL'S WAR - A Russian-led invasion of Israel

Bible Prophecy - Russia, Iran, Turkey and Allies Against Israel

Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan

In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

 

[Dale]

Those who say that the war in Ezekiel 38-39 will happen in our time believe that the "arrows" in Ezekiel are missiles.

Biblewriter.com tells us:

"Since nobody fights with bows and arrows anymore, He is actually referring to modern weapons of warfare that fly through the air -- missiles. You can expect that the invading countries will launch an all-out attack against Israel using nuclear weapons."
Apocalypsesoon.org doesn't directly say this but does say:

"In June, 1997, Iran test-fired missiles over the Persian Gulf, giving much concern to the U.S. Defense Department, and also held huge military maneuvers code-named The Road to Jerusalem."


The notion that an ancient arrow has similarities to a modern missile, on a smaller scale, does make sense. A July 29, 2019 story in the Jerusalem Post carried the headline:

Israel, U.S. carry out successful test of Arrow-3 missile over Alaska

(Subtitle) Test comes days after Iran tested a medium-range ballistic missile.

Caption: Israel, US carry out successful test of Arrow-3 missile over Alaska



The Arrow-3 missile is an interceptor designed to take out incoming missiles.

Russia has an air-to-air missile, the R-37, which carries the NATO designation of the AA-13 Arrow.

Is this what was intended in Ezekiel? The connection would be more convincing if Ezekiel didn't specifically mention bows along with arrows. In Ezekiel 39:3, God says to Gog, the enemy:
"Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand."

Also, in Ezekiel 39:9, bows, arrows. clubs and spears are mentioned as weapons gathered up when the battle is over.

Is it even remotely possible that horses could again be used in warfare, on a large scale? Not really. Suppose that every tank in the world was disabled by a glitch in its built-in computer chips. Could armies go back to horses? No, because there aren't enough horses. In the US, for instance, the human population was much lower in 1900 but there were far more horses than we have today. Since horses are no longer routinely used to move people and haul cargo, we have only a small fraction as many horses as we used to have.

Could horses be better than mechanized transport in mountainous territory? If rough, uneven terrain is the problem, mules would probably be better than horses. Mules are used on trails in the Grand Canyon because mules have a reputation for being "surefooted." If animals were used, it wouldn't necessarily be horses.

An army on horseback, cavalry, could never come against a modern army using machine guns. Look at it this way. In 1800, horses were widely used in warfare. Cavalry was used, and officers were often on horseback. The muskets of the time had very limited range and terrible accuracy, so they were a limited threat to soldiers on horseback. Without modern vehicles, there was no alternative, anyway. Modern rifles, on the other hand, can kill or maim at a considerable distance, and with great accuracy. Automatic weapons can spray a whole landscape with bullets. A soldier on horseback would just make a better target than one standing or crouching.

If the prophecy in Ezekiel 38-39 does apply to our time, is it the same as the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation, or are they different? Opinion is divided.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Revelation 19:17-21 NIV

While Ezekiel says it will take the Israelites seven months to bury the enemy dead, Revelation gives the impression that God will have the birds take care of it. In that light, it doesn't sound like the same event. Ezekiel does picture Israel celebrating a God-given victory. If that is the case, it would seem that the punishment of Israel is ended and it is time for the Second Coming and the Millennium. God knows the answer, and we can only wait.


Links

Israel, U.S. carry out successful test of Arrow-3 missile over Alaska

List of missiles by country - Wikipedia

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Many Christians concerned about the end times see the war described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 as imminent-- it could happen in our lifetimes.

For instance, Biblewriter.com says that this invasion of Israel will be "predominantly Muslim." Gog, mentioned in both chapters, could be "a name for the Last-Days' Dictator."

Apocalypsesoon.org says: "Ezekiel's war probably will occur soon after the coming conflict between Syria/Egypt and Israel, which could happen any moment. It's probable that the next war will be the 'hooks in the jaw' (Ezek.38:4) that draws Russia, Iran and their allies directly into this regional conflict."

Alphanewsdaily says: "In Ezekiel 38-39 the Bible warns this coming war between Russia, Iran, and Israel will take place sometime AFTER Israel would be re-gathered into Her land as a nation (which was fulfilled on May 14, 1948). "

Among the problems with this scenario are horses, Egypt, walls, bodies and arrows.

The prophecy in Ezekiel 38 & 39 is attributed directly to God. The "Sovereign Lord" either "says" or "declares" prophecy no less than fifteen times in two chapters, in the NIV. One of the things the Lord says is that the invading army will be on horseback. Ezekiel 38:5 says that "a great horde" will come from "the far north," "all of them riding on horses." No tanks, no jeeps, no trucks, no planes or helicopters, just horses.

Biblewriter.com dismisses this image of an ancient army and assures us that the army coming against Israel will be equipped with modern weapons. "God is giving the prophet a word picture of a heavily armed group of soldiers," we are told.

It looks like the literalists are only literal when it takes them where they want to go. The Word of God is literally true until the literalists decide otherwise. I have run into those who take the idea of a modern cavalry invasion seriously. Very unlikely. I will say more on arrows, horses and Armageddon in Post 2.

Those who say that Ezekiel predicts a modern invasion of Israel from the north repeatedly say that Egypt won't be involved. Biblewriter.com observes that Egypt has been an enemy of Israel from the beginning but finds no sign of Egypt in these chapters. BW calls it "one of the oddest aspects" of the prophecy.

Apocalypsesoon.org says that "Egypt and Syria" "are missing from Ezekiel."

The absence of Egypt would be puzzling since Egypt has the largest population in the Arab world. If the Arabs are going to attack Israel, Egyptian participation would seem to be a must. If the absence of Egypt is odd, stop worrying. These interpreters are simply wrong.
Ezekiel 38:5: " Persia, Cush[c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets ... " The NIV footnotes Cush: "That is, the upper Nile region." Ezekiel mentions Cush among the attackers, and Cush is part of Egypt. For simplicity, Cush is Egypt. How did learned interpreters miss this?

In Ezekiel 39:11, the Sovereign Lord describes the attitude of the invaders. "You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars."

Biblewriter.com sees this as pointing to modern times. In Ezekiel's time, important cities were walled for defense. Today, walls are obsolete, at least for that purpose, so we have "unwalled villages."

But does this description of towns without walls really point to modern Israel? It isn't obvious, especially when you realize that security fences serve the same purpose as walls.
On January 20, 2016, the Times of Israel carried the headline:
Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan.

Lead sentence: "Israel has begun work on a long security fence along its border with Jordan, the only one of its internationally recognized frontiers currently without a physical barrier." A much longer security fence had already been started on the border with Lebanon. There is also a modern security barrier around East Jerusalem.

Settlements in the territories are heavily walled or fenced. On February 16, 2016, NPR ran a story:
In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

"In the past months of increased violence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Palestinian attackers have cut or jumped fences surrounding Israeli settlements several times, stabbing and twice killing Israeli civilians."

The story has two photos of security fences connected to West Bank settlements. The notion of modern Israel as a land of unwalled or unfenced towns ignores a lot of facts. The area certainly isn't peaceful, with an unsuspecting population.

Ezekiel says that it will take seven months to bury the dead after the invaders are destroyed. Interpreters see this in terms of biological, chemical or nuclear warfare. (Yes, I know, we started with horses!)

Biblewriter.com says they "let the professionals carry the stuff away to a designated waste area. Sounds like the remains will be radioactive. Or toxic."

Alphanewsdaily says that "professionals" will bury the dead using procedures suitable for a "military nuclear/biological/chemical" situation.

Ezekiel doesn't really back this up and I'm not sure it makes sense. "All the people of the land will bury them," we are told in Ezekiel 39:13. That doesn't sound like the job is reserved for trained professionals. In Ezekiel 39:15, burials are handled by "the gravediggers." Still doesn't sound like professionals in special suits. (Quotes are NIV.) Another point that doesn't occur to these interpreters is that under Old Testament law, contact with a corpse, or a cemetery, creates ritual impurity. Jewish law requires burial as well, so there are reasons for burying enemy soldiers in designated places that have nothing to do with nuclear or chemical weapons.

Here's another problem. The theme of these two chapters of Ezekiel is that God defends Israel. Either God crushes the enemy invaders or He arranges for them to be destroyed. God hands Israel a victory which causes them to celebrate and glorify God. If considerable areas are left as a radioactive wasteland, that doesn't sound like much of a victory. If God's purpose is to defend Israel from ungodly opponents, surely He would do better.


Links

Bible Writer -- Revelation Study: Ezekiel's War (Ch. 38-39)

Apocalypse soon - The X files - EZEKIEL'S WAR - A Russian-led invasion of Israel

Bible Prophecy - Russia, Iran, Turkey and Allies Against Israel

Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan

In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

I have thought of Ezekiel 14 to be for this time period for a number of years.

The gog and magog (russia) prophecy was related to some consensus from a previous generation.

It might be re-baked and such in this generation, but it never really connected as reality for me.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Many Christians concerned about the end times see the war described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 as imminent-- it could happen in our lifetimes.

For instance, Biblewriter.com says that this invasion of Israel will be "predominantly Muslim." Gog, mentioned in both chapters, could be "a name for the Last-Days' Dictator."

Apocalypsesoon.org says: "Ezekiel's war probably will occur soon after the coming conflict between Syria/Egypt and Israel, which could happen any moment. It's probable that the next war will be the 'hooks in the jaw' (Ezek.38:4) that draws Russia, Iran and their allies directly into this regional conflict."

Alphanewsdaily says: "In Ezekiel 38-39 the Bible warns this coming war between Russia, Iran, and Israel will take place sometime AFTER Israel would be re-gathered into Her land as a nation (which was fulfilled on May 14, 1948). "

Among the problems with this scenario are horses, Egypt, walls, bodies and arrows.

The prophecy in Ezekiel 38 & 39 is attributed directly to God. The "Sovereign Lord" either "says" or "declares" prophecy no less than fifteen times in two chapters, in the NIV. One of the things the Lord says is that the invading army will be on horseback. Ezekiel 38:5 says that "a great horde" will come from "the far north," "all of them riding on horses." No tanks, no jeeps, no trucks, no planes or helicopters, just horses.

Biblewriter.com dismisses this image of an ancient army and assures us that the army coming against Israel will be equipped with modern weapons. "God is giving the prophet a word picture of a heavily armed group of soldiers," we are told.

It looks like the literalists are only literal when it takes them where they want to go. The Word of God is literally true until the literalists decide otherwise. I have run into those who take the idea of a modern cavalry invasion seriously. Very unlikely. I will say more on arrows, horses and Armageddon in Post 2.

Those who say that Ezekiel predicts a modern invasion of Israel from the north repeatedly say that Egypt won't be involved. Biblewriter.com observes that Egypt has been an enemy of Israel from the beginning but finds no sign of Egypt in these chapters. BW calls it "one of the oddest aspects" of the prophecy.

Apocalypsesoon.org says that "Egypt and Syria" "are missing from Ezekiel."

The absence of Egypt would be puzzling since Egypt has the largest population in the Arab world. If the Arabs are going to attack Israel, Egyptian participation would seem to be a must. If the absence of Egypt is odd, stop worrying. These interpreters are simply wrong.
Ezekiel 38:5: " Persia, Cush[c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets ... " The NIV footnotes Cush: "That is, the upper Nile region." Ezekiel mentions Cush among the attackers, and Cush is part of Egypt. For simplicity, Cush is Egypt. How did learned interpreters miss this?

In Ezekiel 39:11, the Sovereign Lord describes the attitude of the invaders. "You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars."

Biblewriter.com sees this as pointing to modern times. In Ezekiel's time, important cities were walled for defense. Today, walls are obsolete, at least for that purpose, so we have "unwalled villages."

But does this description of towns without walls really point to modern Israel? It isn't obvious, especially when you realize that security fences serve the same purpose as walls.
On January 20, 2016, the Times of Israel carried the headline:
Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan.

Lead sentence: "Israel has begun work on a long security fence along its border with Jordan, the only one of its internationally recognized frontiers currently without a physical barrier." A much longer security fence had already been started on the border with Lebanon. There is also a modern security barrier around East Jerusalem.

Settlements in the territories are heavily walled or fenced. On February 16, 2016, NPR ran a story:
In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

"In the past months of increased violence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Palestinian attackers have cut or jumped fences surrounding Israeli settlements several times, stabbing and twice killing Israeli civilians."

The story has two photos of security fences connected to West Bank settlements. The notion of modern Israel as a land of unwalled or unfenced towns ignores a lot of facts. The area certainly isn't peaceful, with an unsuspecting population.

Ezekiel says that it will take seven months to bury the dead after the invaders are destroyed. Interpreters see this in terms of biological, chemical or nuclear warfare. (Yes, I know, we started with horses!)

Biblewriter.com says they "let the professionals carry the stuff away to a designated waste area. Sounds like the remains will be radioactive. Or toxic."

Alphanewsdaily says that "professionals" will bury the dead using procedures suitable for a "military nuclear/biological/chemical" situation.

Ezekiel doesn't really back this up and I'm not sure it makes sense. "All the people of the land will bury them," we are told in Ezekiel 39:13. That doesn't sound like the job is reserved for trained professionals. In Ezekiel 39:15, burials are handled by "the gravediggers." Still doesn't sound like professionals in special suits. (Quotes are NIV.) Another point that doesn't occur to these interpreters is that under Old Testament law, contact with a corpse, or a cemetery, creates ritual impurity. Jewish law requires burial as well, so there are reasons for burying enemy soldiers in designated places that have nothing to do with nuclear or chemical weapons.

Here's another problem. The theme of these two chapters of Ezekiel is that God defends Israel. Either God crushes the enemy invaders or He arranges for them to be destroyed. God hands Israel a victory which causes them to celebrate and glorify God. If considerable areas are left as a radioactive wasteland, that doesn't sound like much of a victory. If God's purpose is to defend Israel from ungodly opponents, surely He would do better.


Links

Bible Writer -- Revelation Study: Ezekiel's War (Ch. 38-39)

Apocalypse soon - The X files - EZEKIEL'S WAR - A Russian-led invasion of Israel

Bible Prophecy - Russia, Iran, Turkey and Allies Against Israel

Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan

In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

The reason Egypt is not mentioned invading Israel with Gog is because Egypt is not able.
Egypt is destroyed about 1000 years prior to Gogs Invasion. After Egypt is destroyed no one will be able to live in Egypt for 40 years. After the 40 years are completed, Egyptians can move back to lower Egypt but the country will never again be able to attack anyone after Armegeddon.

Ezekiel 29:9 The land of Egypt will become a desolate wasteland. Then they will know that I am the LORD. Because you said, 'The Nile is mine; I made it,'
Ezekiel 29:10 therefore I am against you and against your rivers. I will turn the land of Egypt into a ruin, a desolate wasteland from Migdol to Syene, and as far as the border of Cush.
Ezekiel 29:11 No foot of man or beast will pass through, and it will be uninhabited for forty years.
Ezekiel 29:12 I will make the land of Egypt a desolation among desolate lands, and her cities will lie desolate for forty years among the ruined cities. And I will disperse the Egyptians among the nations and scatter them throughout the countries.
Ezekiel 29:13 For this is what the Lord GOD says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations to which they were scattered.
Ezekiel 29:14 I will restore Egypt from captivity and bring them back to the land of Pathros, the land of their origin. There they will be a lowly kingdom.
Ezekiel 29:15 Egypt will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the nations. For I will diminish Egypt so that it will never again rule over the nations.

 

[eleos1954]

Many Christians concerned about the end times see the war described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 as imminent-- it could happen in our lifetimes.

For instance, Biblewriter.com says that this invasion of Israel will be "predominantly Muslim." Gog, mentioned in both chapters, could be "a name for the Last-Days' Dictator."

Apocalypsesoon.org says: "Ezekiel's war probably will occur soon after the coming conflict between Syria/Egypt and Israel, which could happen any moment. It's probable that the next war will be the 'hooks in the jaw' (Ezek.38:4) that draws Russia, Iran and their allies directly into this regional conflict."

Alphanewsdaily says: "In Ezekiel 38-39 the Bible warns this coming war between Russia, Iran, and Israel will take place sometime AFTER Israel would be re-gathered into Her land as a nation (which was fulfilled on May 14, 1948). "

Among the problems with this scenario are horses, Egypt, walls, bodies and arrows.

There is a parallel between Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20, just as the use of the names Gog and Magog in both passages would imply.



The prophecy in Ezekiel 38 & 39 is attributed directly to God. The "Sovereign Lord" either "says" or "declares" prophecy no less than fifteen times in two chapters, in the NIV. One of the things the Lord says is that the invading army will be on horseback. Ezekiel 38:5 says that "a great horde" will come from "the far north," "all of them riding on horses." No tanks, no jeeps, no trucks, no planes or helicopters, just horses.

Biblewriter.com dismisses this image of an ancient army and assures us that the army coming against Israel will be equipped with modern weapons. "God is giving the prophet a word picture of a heavily armed group of soldiers," we are told.

It looks like the literalists are only literal when it takes them where they want to go. The Word of God is literally true until the literalists decide otherwise. I have run into those who take the idea of a modern cavalry invasion seriously. Very unlikely. I will say more on arrows, horses and Armageddon in Post 2.

Those who say that Ezekiel predicts a modern invasion of Israel from the north repeatedly say that Egypt won't be involved. Biblewriter.com observes that Egypt has been an enemy of Israel from the beginning but finds no sign of Egypt in these chapters. BW calls it "one of the oddest aspects" of the prophecy.

Apocalypsesoon.org says that "Egypt and Syria" "are missing from Ezekiel."

The absence of Egypt would be puzzling since Egypt has the largest population in the Arab world. If the Arabs are going to attack Israel, Egyptian participation would seem to be a must. If the absence of Egypt is odd, stop worrying. These interpreters are simply wrong.
Ezekiel 38:5: " Persia, Cush[c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets ... " The NIV footnotes Cush: "That is, the upper Nile region." Ezekiel mentions Cush among the attackers, and Cush is part of Egypt. For simplicity, Cush is Egypt. How did learned interpreters miss this?

In Ezekiel 39:11, the Sovereign Lord describes the attitude of the invaders. "You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars."

Biblewriter.com sees this as pointing to modern times. In Ezekiel's time, important cities were walled for defense. Today, walls are obsolete, at least for that purpose, so we have "unwalled villages."

But does this description of towns without walls really point to modern Israel? It isn't obvious, especially when you realize that security fences serve the same purpose as walls.
On January 20, 2016, the Times of Israel carried the headline:
Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan.

Lead sentence: "Israel has begun work on a long security fence along its border with Jordan, the only one of its internationally recognized frontiers currently without a physical barrier." A much longer security fence had already been started on the border with Lebanon. There is also a modern security barrier around East Jerusalem.

Settlements in the territories are heavily walled or fenced. On February 16, 2016, NPR ran a story:
In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

"In the past months of increased violence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Palestinian attackers have cut or jumped fences surrounding Israeli settlements several times, stabbing and twice killing Israeli civilians."

The story has two photos of security fences connected to West Bank settlements. The notion of modern Israel as a land of unwalled or unfenced towns ignores a lot of facts. The area certainly isn't peaceful, with an unsuspecting population.

Ezekiel says that it will take seven months to bury the dead after the invaders are destroyed. Interpreters see this in terms of biological, chemical or nuclear warfare. (Yes, I know, we started with horses!)

Biblewriter.com says they "let the professionals carry the stuff away to a designated waste area. Sounds like the remains will be radioactive. Or toxic."

Alphanewsdaily says that "professionals" will bury the dead using procedures suitable for a "military nuclear/biological/chemical" situation.

Ezekiel doesn't really back this up and I'm not sure it makes sense. "All the people of the land will bury them," we are told in Ezekiel 39:13. That doesn't sound like the job is reserved for trained professionals. In Ezekiel 39:15, burials are handled by "the gravediggers." Still doesn't sound like professionals in special suits. (Quotes are NIV.) Another point that doesn't occur to these interpreters is that under Old Testament law, contact with a corpse, or a cemetery, creates ritual impurity. Jewish law requires burial as well, so there are reasons for burying enemy soldiers in designated places that have nothing to do with nuclear or chemical weapons.

Here's another problem. The theme of these two chapters of Ezekiel is that God defends Israel. Either God crushes the enemy invaders or He arranges for them to be destroyed. God hands Israel a victory which causes them to celebrate and glorify God. If considerable areas are left as a radioactive wasteland, that doesn't sound like much of a victory. If God's purpose is to defend Israel from ungodly opponents, surely He would do better.


Links

Bible Writer -- Revelation Study: Ezekiel's War (Ch. 38-39)

Apocalypse soon - The X files - EZEKIEL'S WAR - A Russian-led invasion of Israel

Bible Prophecy - Russia, Iran, Turkey and Allies Against Israel

Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan

In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

 

[Douggg]

Many Christians concerned about the end times see the war described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 as imminent-- it could happen in our lifetimes.

For instance, Biblewriter.com says that this invasion of Israel will be "predominantly Muslim." Gog, mentioned in both chapters, could be "a name for the Last-Days' Dictator."

Apocalypsesoon.org says: "Ezekiel's war probably will occur soon after the coming conflict between Syria/Egypt and Israel, which could happen any moment. It's probable that the next war will be the 'hooks in the jaw' (Ezek.38:4) that draws Russia, Iran and their allies directly into this regional conflict."

Alphanewsdaily says: "In Ezekiel 38-39 the Bible warns this coming war between Russia, Iran, and Israel will take place sometime AFTER Israel would be re-gathered into Her land as a nation (which was fulfilled on May 14, 1948). "

Among the problems with this scenario are horses, Egypt, walls, bodies and arrows.

The prophecy in Ezekiel 38 & 39 is attributed directly to God. The "Sovereign Lord" either "says" or "declares" prophecy no less than fifteen times in two chapters, in the NIV. One of the things the Lord says is that the invading army will be on horseback. Ezekiel 38:5 says that "a great horde" will come from "the far north," "all of them riding on horses." No tanks, no jeeps, no trucks, no planes or helicopters, just horses.

Biblewriter.com dismisses this image of an ancient army and assures us that the army coming against Israel will be equipped with modern weapons. "God is giving the prophet a word picture of a heavily armed group of soldiers," we are told.

It looks like the literalists are only literal when it takes them where they want to go. The Word of God is literally true until the literalists decide otherwise. I have run into those who take the idea of a modern cavalry invasion seriously. Very unlikely. I will say more on arrows, horses and Armageddon in Post 2.

Those who say that Ezekiel predicts a modern invasion of Israel from the north repeatedly say that Egypt won't be involved. Biblewriter.com observes that Egypt has been an enemy of Israel from the beginning but finds no sign of Egypt in these chapters. BW calls it "one of the oddest aspects" of the prophecy.

Apocalypsesoon.org says that "Egypt and Syria" "are missing from Ezekiel."

The absence of Egypt would be puzzling since Egypt has the largest population in the Arab world. If the Arabs are going to attack Israel, Egyptian participation would seem to be a must. If the absence of Egypt is odd, stop worrying. These interpreters are simply wrong.
Ezekiel 38:5: " Persia, Cush[c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets ... " The NIV footnotes Cush: "That is, the upper Nile region." Ezekiel mentions Cush among the attackers, and Cush is part of Egypt. For simplicity, Cush is Egypt. How did learned interpreters miss this?

In Ezekiel 39:11, the Sovereign Lord describes the attitude of the invaders. "You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars."

Biblewriter.com sees this as pointing to modern times. In Ezekiel's time, important cities were walled for defense. Today, walls are obsolete, at least for that purpose, so we have "unwalled villages."

But does this description of towns without walls really point to modern Israel? It isn't obvious, especially when you realize that security fences serve the same purpose as walls.
On January 20, 2016, the Times of Israel carried the headline:
Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan.

Lead sentence: "Israel has begun work on a long security fence along its border with Jordan, the only one of its internationally recognized frontiers currently without a physical barrier." A much longer security fence had already been started on the border with Lebanon. There is also a modern security barrier around East Jerusalem.

Settlements in the territories are heavily walled or fenced. On February 16, 2016, NPR ran a story:
In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

"In the past months of increased violence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Palestinian attackers have cut or jumped fences surrounding Israeli settlements several times, stabbing and twice killing Israeli civilians."

The story has two photos of security fences connected to West Bank settlements. The notion of modern Israel as a land of unwalled or unfenced towns ignores a lot of facts. The area certainly isn't peaceful, with an unsuspecting population.

Ezekiel says that it will take seven months to bury the dead after the invaders are destroyed. Interpreters see this in terms of biological, chemical or nuclear warfare. (Yes, I know, we started with horses!)

Biblewriter.com says they "let the professionals carry the stuff away to a designated waste area. Sounds like the remains will be radioactive. Or toxic."

Alphanewsdaily says that "professionals" will bury the dead using procedures suitable for a "military nuclear/biological/chemical" situation.

Ezekiel doesn't really back this up and I'm not sure it makes sense. "All the people of the land will bury them," we are told in Ezekiel 39:13. That doesn't sound like the job is reserved for trained professionals. In Ezekiel 39:15, burials are handled by "the gravediggers." Still doesn't sound like professionals in special suits. (Quotes are NIV.) Another point that doesn't occur to these interpreters is that under Old Testament law, contact with a corpse, or a cemetery, creates ritual impurity. Jewish law requires burial as well, so there are reasons for burying enemy soldiers in designated places that have nothing to do with nuclear or chemical weapons.

Here's another problem. The theme of these two chapters of Ezekiel is that God defends Israel. Either God crushes the enemy invaders or He arranges for them to be destroyed. God hands Israel a victory which causes them to celebrate and glorify God. If considerable areas are left as a radioactive wasteland, that doesn't sound like much of a victory. If God's purpose is to defend Israel from ungodly opponents, surely He would do better.


Links

Bible Writer -- Revelation Study: Ezekiel's War (Ch. 38-39)

Apocalypse soon - The X files - EZEKIEL'S WAR - A Russian-led invasion of Israel

Bible Prophecy - Russia, Iran, Turkey and Allies Against Israel

Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan

In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

Dale, care to make a stand in my thread ?

Where do you fit ?

 

[Douggg]

Many Christians concerned about the end times see the war described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 as imminent-- it could happen in our lifetimes.

For instance, Biblewriter.com says that this invasion of Israel will be "predominantly Muslim." Gog, mentioned in both chapters, could be "a name for the Last-Days' Dictator."

Apocalypsesoon.org says: "Ezekiel's war probably will occur soon after the coming conflict between Syria/Egypt and Israel, which could happen any moment. It's probable that the next war will be the 'hooks in the jaw' (Ezek.38:4) that draws Russia, Iran and their allies directly into this regional conflict."

Alphanewsdaily says: "In Ezekiel 38-39 the Bible warns this coming war between Russia, Iran, and Israel will take place sometime AFTER Israel would be re-gathered into Her land as a nation (which was fulfilled on May 14, 1948). "

Among the problems with this scenario are horses, Egypt, walls, bodies and arrows.

The prophecy in Ezekiel 38 & 39 is attributed directly to God. The "Sovereign Lord" either "says" or "declares" prophecy no less than fifteen times in two chapters, in the NIV. One of the things the Lord says is that the invading army will be on horseback. Ezekiel 38:5 says that "a great horde" will come from "the far north," "all of them riding on horses." No tanks, no jeeps, no trucks, no planes or helicopters, just horses.

Biblewriter.com dismisses this image of an ancient army and assures us that the army coming against Israel will be equipped with modern weapons. "God is giving the prophet a word picture of a heavily armed group of soldiers," we are told.

It looks like the literalists are only literal when it takes them where they want to go. The Word of God is literally true until the literalists decide otherwise. I have run into those who take the idea of a modern cavalry invasion seriously. Very unlikely. I will say more on arrows, horses and Armageddon in Post 2.

Those who say that Ezekiel predicts a modern invasion of Israel from the north repeatedly say that Egypt won't be involved. Biblewriter.com observes that Egypt has been an enemy of Israel from the beginning but finds no sign of Egypt in these chapters. BW calls it "one of the oddest aspects" of the prophecy.

Apocalypsesoon.org says that "Egypt and Syria" "are missing from Ezekiel."

The absence of Egypt would be puzzling since Egypt has the largest population in the Arab world. If the Arabs are going to attack Israel, Egyptian participation would seem to be a must. If the absence of Egypt is odd, stop worrying. These interpreters are simply wrong.
Ezekiel 38:5: " Persia, Cush[c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets ... " The NIV footnotes Cush: "That is, the upper Nile region." Ezekiel mentions Cush among the attackers, and Cush is part of Egypt. For simplicity, Cush is Egypt. How did learned interpreters miss this?

In Ezekiel 39:11, the Sovereign Lord describes the attitude of the invaders. "You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars."

Biblewriter.com sees this as pointing to modern times. In Ezekiel's time, important cities were walled for defense. Today, walls are obsolete, at least for that purpose, so we have "unwalled villages."

But does this description of towns without walls really point to modern Israel? It isn't obvious, especially when you realize that security fences serve the same purpose as walls.
On January 20, 2016, the Times of Israel carried the headline:
Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan.

Lead sentence: "Israel has begun work on a long security fence along its border with Jordan, the only one of its internationally recognized frontiers currently without a physical barrier." A much longer security fence had already been started on the border with Lebanon. There is also a modern security barrier around East Jerusalem.

Settlements in the territories are heavily walled or fenced. On February 16, 2016, NPR ran a story:
In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

"In the past months of increased violence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Palestinian attackers have cut or jumped fences surrounding Israeli settlements several times, stabbing and twice killing Israeli civilians."

The story has two photos of security fences connected to West Bank settlements. The notion of modern Israel as a land of unwalled or unfenced towns ignores a lot of facts. The area certainly isn't peaceful, with an unsuspecting population.

Ezekiel says that it will take seven months to bury the dead after the invaders are destroyed. Interpreters see this in terms of biological, chemical or nuclear warfare. (Yes, I know, we started with horses!)

Biblewriter.com says they "let the professionals carry the stuff away to a designated waste area. Sounds like the remains will be radioactive. Or toxic."

Alphanewsdaily says that "professionals" will bury the dead using procedures suitable for a "military nuclear/biological/chemical" situation.

Ezekiel doesn't really back this up and I'm not sure it makes sense. "All the people of the land will bury them," we are told in Ezekiel 39:13. That doesn't sound like the job is reserved for trained professionals. In Ezekiel 39:15, burials are handled by "the gravediggers." Still doesn't sound like professionals in special suits. (Quotes are NIV.) Another point that doesn't occur to these interpreters is that under Old Testament law, contact with a corpse, or a cemetery, creates ritual impurity. Jewish law requires burial as well, so there are reasons for burying enemy soldiers in designated places that have nothing to do with nuclear or chemical weapons.

Here's another problem. The theme of these two chapters of Ezekiel is that God defends Israel. Either God crushes the enemy invaders or He arranges for them to be destroyed. God hands Israel a victory which causes them to celebrate and glorify God. If considerable areas are left as a radioactive wasteland, that doesn't sound like much of a victory. If God's purpose is to defend Israel from ungodly opponents, surely He would do better.


Links

Bible Writer -- Revelation Study: Ezekiel's War (Ch. 38-39)

Apocalypse soon - The X files - EZEKIEL'S WAR - A Russian-led invasion of Israel

Bible Prophecy - Russia, Iran, Turkey and Allies Against Israel

Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan

In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

Dale, you are starting from the wrong end of Ezekiel 39.

Start at Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to Earth at His Second Coming.

In Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast in Revelation 19:17-18.

Jesus's return is at the end of the 7 years, so the seven years in Ezekiel 39:9 following the destruction of Gog's army is the 7 years in Daniel 9:27.

 

[Dale]

The reason Egypt is not mentioned invading Israel with Gog is because Egypt is not able.
Egypt is destroyed about 1000 years prior to Gogs Invasion. After Egypt is destroyed no one will be able to live in Egypt for 40 years. After the 40 years are completed, Egyptians can move back to lower Egypt but the country will never again be able to attack anyone after Armegeddon.

Ezekiel 29:9 The land of Egypt will become a desolate wasteland. Then they will know that I am the LORD. Because you said, 'The Nile is mine; I made it,'
Ezekiel 29:10 therefore I am against you and against your rivers. I will turn the land of Egypt into a ruin, a desolate wasteland from Migdol to Syene, and as far as the border of Cush.
Ezekiel 29:11 No foot of man or beast will pass through, and it will be uninhabited for forty years.
Ezekiel 29:12 I will make the land of Egypt a desolation among desolate lands, and her cities will lie desolate for forty years among the ruined cities. And I will disperse the Egyptians among the nations and scatter them throughout the countries.
Ezekiel 29:13 For this is what the Lord GOD says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations to which they were scattered.
Ezekiel 29:14 I will restore Egypt from captivity and bring them back to the land of Pathros, the land of their origin. There they will be a lowly kingdom.
Ezekiel 29:15 Egypt will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the nations. For I will diminish Egypt so that it will never again rule over the nations.

Shiloh: << The reason Egypt is not mentioned invading Israel with Gog is because Egypt is not able.
Egypt is destroyed about 1000 years prior to Gogs Invasion. After Egypt is destroyed no one will be able to live in Egypt for 40 years. After the 40 years are completed, Egyptians can move back to lower Egypt but the country will never again be able to attack anyone after Armegeddon. >>


Shiloh, you believe that the Gog/Magog invasion is something that happens at the end of the Millennium. I don't know how to prove that position.

There is at least one passage that indicates that Egypt will repent, turn to God and become a pillar of righteous worship. Does the breaking of the power of Egypt still hold after this happens?

18 In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the Lord Almighty. One of them will be called the City of the Sun.
19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the Lord and keep them. 22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.
23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. 25 The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”
Isaiah 19:15-25 NIV


God's punishment of Egypt will come to an end. I'm not sure what happens after that. It could be that Egypt again falls away from God at the end of the Millennium, when the nations come against Jerusalem.

 

[keras]

Ezekiel 38 & 39 refers to an alliance of Northern peoples, formed to invade the holy Land, sometime during these latter days. Scholars differ as to who these peoples/nations are, but no reference is made to Israel’s present immediate neighbours – the Arab Islamic nations and entities, such as Hamas. The reason why they are not included in this alliance, is the fact that they will have already suffered an earlier massive defeat, the Psalms 83 fire from the Lord; His Day of wrath. Revelation 6:12-17

The passage in Ezekiel 38:11-13 describe Israel as:

1/ A people dwelling securely – not the case at present.

2/ A nation at peace – all of the nations surrounding are outright or potential enemies.

3/ Dwelling without walls – in modern terms: undefended borders.

4/ An extremely wealthy and prosperous nation, blessed by the Lord – not true of the Jewish State of Israel.

This shows that His people, Christian Israelites, people from every race, nation and language, will be in the Land after this clearance. Revelation 7:9


Ezekiel 38 & 39 are both describing the same event, an attack upon the Lord’s people, by a leader known as Gog, from the ‘far reaches of the North’. He is mentioned again in Revelation 20:8-9 which uses Ezekiel’s prophecy to portray another, final attack against Israel. The result of this battle is that all are destroyed by fire and Satan is finally judged. Some differences are:

1/ The first battle involves only a few nations, the last will be every nation.

2/ There is no mention of Satan in Ezekiel 38-39, but in Revelation 20, he is the primary character.

3/ The Ezekiel battle says the dead will be gathered and buried for 7 months. The armies at the end of the Millennium are cremated instantly, by fire from heaven.

4/ The battle in Ezekiel is used by God to display His power. In Revelation, people have been faithful to God for 1000 years. Those in Rev 20:7-10 who are rebellious are killed without any more opportunity for repentance.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Shiloh: << The reason Egypt is not mentioned invading Israel with Gog is because Egypt is not able.
Egypt is destroyed about 1000 years prior to Gogs Invasion. After Egypt is destroyed no one will be able to live in Egypt for 40 years. After the 40 years are completed, Egyptians can move back to lower Egypt but the country will never again be able to attack anyone after Armegeddon. >>


Shiloh, you believe that the Gog/Magog invasion is something that happens at the end of the Millennium. I don't know how to prove that position.

There is at least one passage that indicates that Egypt will repent, turn to God and become a pillar of righteous worship. Does the breaking of the power of Egypt still hold after this happens?

18 In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the Lord Almighty. One of them will be called the City of the Sun.
19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the Lord and keep them. 22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.
23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. 25 The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”
Isaiah 19:15-25 NIV


God's punishment of Egypt will come to an end. I'm not sure what happens after that. It could be that Egypt again falls away from God at the end of the Millennium, when the nations come against Jerusalem.

In zec 14,zechariah talks about the countries attacking Jerusalem. This war he is speaking of is often called Armegeddon. It consists of the Islamic countries around Israel attacking Israel and taking control of Jerusalem. In reality they would like to today. In comparing scripture such as zec, Daniel, revelation, and the gospel, we find that the countries within the promised land are all destroyed in this war. Countries such as Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and the Palestinians in Gaza will no longer exist. Egypt is destroyed also. But most of Egypt lay outside of the promised land. After the promised land is destroyed, it is given to the saints of Israel who overcame the beast.All of the land from the Euphrates River to the Nile. They can be seen in Revelation 20 living in Jerusalem when Gog invades Israel. All of the promised land will be the land of Israel at that time. Ezekiel briefly mentions the war of Armegeddon when talking about Gogs invasion. Ezekiel wrote that the land will have recovered from war when Gog invades. The war he is speaking of in this verse is Armegeddon.

Ezekiel 38:8 NIV: After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

These who Ezekiel says are safe are the resurrected saints revelation talks about.

Revelation 20:9 KJV: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Remember this. Armeggedon is located in Israel. This is not a worldwide event. This war is regional. The USA can play a part in this war as it has in several Middle Eastern wars. But the war is still regional.1000 years after Armegeddon, when Gog invades Israel, that becomes a worldwide event. After that, there will be a new earth.

 

[Arc F1]

Many Christians concerned about the end times see the war described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 as imminent-- it could happen in our lifetimes.

For instance, Biblewriter.com says that this invasion of Israel will be "predominantly Muslim." Gog, mentioned in both chapters, could be "a name for the Last-Days' Dictator."

Apocalypsesoon.org says: "Ezekiel's war probably will occur soon after the coming conflict between Syria/Egypt and Israel, which could happen any moment. It's probable that the next war will be the 'hooks in the jaw' (Ezek.38:4) that draws Russia, Iran and their allies directly into this regional conflict."

Alphanewsdaily says: "In Ezekiel 38-39 the Bible warns this coming war between Russia, Iran, and Israel will take place sometime AFTER Israel would be re-gathered into Her land as a nation (which was fulfilled on May 14, 1948). "

Among the problems with this scenario are horses, Egypt, walls, bodies and arrows.

The prophecy in Ezekiel 38 & 39 is attributed directly to God. The "Sovereign Lord" either "says" or "declares" prophecy no less than fifteen times in two chapters, in the NIV. One of the things the Lord says is that the invading army will be on horseback. Ezekiel 38:5 says that "a great horde" will come from "the far north," "all of them riding on horses." No tanks, no jeeps, no trucks, no planes or helicopters, just horses.

Biblewriter.com dismisses this image of an ancient army and assures us that the army coming against Israel will be equipped with modern weapons. "God is giving the prophet a word picture of a heavily armed group of soldiers," we are told.

It looks like the literalists are only literal when it takes them where they want to go. The Word of God is literally true until the literalists decide otherwise. I have run into those who take the idea of a modern cavalry invasion seriously. Very unlikely. I will say more on arrows, horses and Armageddon in Post 2.

Those who say that Ezekiel predicts a modern invasion of Israel from the north repeatedly say that Egypt won't be involved. Biblewriter.com observes that Egypt has been an enemy of Israel from the beginning but finds no sign of Egypt in these chapters. BW calls it "one of the oddest aspects" of the prophecy.

Apocalypsesoon.org says that "Egypt and Syria" "are missing from Ezekiel."

The absence of Egypt would be puzzling since Egypt has the largest population in the Arab world. If the Arabs are going to attack Israel, Egyptian participation would seem to be a must. If the absence of Egypt is odd, stop worrying. These interpreters are simply wrong.
Ezekiel 38:5: " Persia, Cush[c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets ... " The NIV footnotes Cush: "That is, the upper Nile region." Ezekiel mentions Cush among the attackers, and Cush is part of Egypt. For simplicity, Cush is Egypt. How did learned interpreters miss this?

In Ezekiel 39:11, the Sovereign Lord describes the attitude of the invaders. "You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars."

Biblewriter.com sees this as pointing to modern times. In Ezekiel's time, important cities were walled for defense. Today, walls are obsolete, at least for that purpose, so we have "unwalled villages."

But does this description of towns without walls really point to modern Israel? It isn't obvious, especially when you realize that security fences serve the same purpose as walls.
On January 20, 2016, the Times of Israel carried the headline:
Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan.

Lead sentence: "Israel has begun work on a long security fence along its border with Jordan, the only one of its internationally recognized frontiers currently without a physical barrier." A much longer security fence had already been started on the border with Lebanon. There is also a modern security barrier around East Jerusalem.

Settlements in the territories are heavily walled or fenced. On February 16, 2016, NPR ran a story:
In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

"In the past months of increased violence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Palestinian attackers have cut or jumped fences surrounding Israeli settlements several times, stabbing and twice killing Israeli civilians."

The story has two photos of security fences connected to West Bank settlements. The notion of modern Israel as a land of unwalled or unfenced towns ignores a lot of facts. The area certainly isn't peaceful, with an unsuspecting population.

Ezekiel says that it will take seven months to bury the dead after the invaders are destroyed. Interpreters see this in terms of biological, chemical or nuclear warfare. (Yes, I know, we started with horses!)

Biblewriter.com says they "let the professionals carry the stuff away to a designated waste area. Sounds like the remains will be radioactive. Or toxic."

Alphanewsdaily says that "professionals" will bury the dead using procedures suitable for a "military nuclear/biological/chemical" situation.

Ezekiel doesn't really back this up and I'm not sure it makes sense. "All the people of the land will bury them," we are told in Ezekiel 39:13. That doesn't sound like the job is reserved for trained professionals. In Ezekiel 39:15, burials are handled by "the gravediggers." Still doesn't sound like professionals in special suits. (Quotes are NIV.) Another point that doesn't occur to these interpreters is that under Old Testament law, contact with a corpse, or a cemetery, creates ritual impurity. Jewish law requires burial as well, so there are reasons for burying enemy soldiers in designated places that have nothing to do with nuclear or chemical weapons.

Here's another problem. The theme of these two chapters of Ezekiel is that God defends Israel. Either God crushes the enemy invaders or He arranges for them to be destroyed. God hands Israel a victory which causes them to celebrate and glorify God. If considerable areas are left as a radioactive wasteland, that doesn't sound like much of a victory. If God's purpose is to defend Israel from ungodly opponents, surely He would do better.


Links

Bible Writer -- Revelation Study: Ezekiel's War (Ch. 38-39)

Apocalypse soon - The X files - EZEKIEL'S WAR - A Russian-led invasion of Israel

Bible Prophecy - Russia, Iran, Turkey and Allies Against Israel

Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan

In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

In any vision of the future if the person was to literally see the future it could change things, not to mention they wouldn't understand what they were seeing.

 

[Dale]

Dale, you are starting from the wrong end of Ezekiel 39.

Start at Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to Earth at His Second Coming.

In Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast in Revelation 19:17-18.

Jesus's return is at the end of the 7 years, so the seven years in Ezekiel 39:9 following the destruction of Gog's army is the 7 years in Daniel 9:27.

Doug: "Start at Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to Earth at His Second Coming."

We don't know this. The passage doesn't mention the coming Messiah.


Doug: "In Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast in Revelation 19:17-18."

They two passages are very similar. How do we know that this event of birds feasting on the bodies of fallen enemy soldiers doesn't happen more than once?



Doug: "Jesus's return is at the end of the 7 years, so the seven years in Ezekiel 39:9 following the destruction of Gog's army is the 7 years in Daniel 9:27."

9 “‘Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. 10 They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel.
Ezekiel 38:9-10 NIV


There are a number of seven year periods in the Bible. Ezekiel says that Israel will have fuel for seven years. Ezekiel also tells us that the Israelites will be burning weapons. If they are burning weapons, that means that Israel is at peace, they don't expect to need the weapons. Yet Daniel tells us "War will continue until the end" in Daniel 9:26. You can't have it both ways. Either Israel is at peace or at war at this time. In this light, it doesn't sound like Ezekiel and Daniel are talking about the same time period.

 

[Dale]

Ezekiel 38 & 39 refers to an alliance of Northern peoples, formed to invade the holy Land, sometime during these latter days. Scholars differ as to who these peoples/nations are, but no reference is made to Israel’s present immediate neighbours – the Arab Islamic nations and entities, such as Hamas. The reason why they are not included in this alliance, is the fact that they will have already suffered an earlier massive defeat, the Psalms 83 fire from the Lord; His Day of wrath. Revelation 6:12-17

The passage in Ezekiel 38:11-13 describe Israel as:

1/ A people dwelling securely – not the case at present.

2/ A nation at peace – all of the nations surrounding are outright or potential enemies.

3/ Dwelling without walls – in modern terms: undefended borders.

4/ An extremely wealthy and prosperous nation, blessed by the Lord – not true of the Jewish State of Israel.

This shows that His people, Christian Israelites, people from every race, nation and language, will be in the Land after this clearance. Revelation 7:9


Ezekiel 38 & 39 are both describing the same event, an attack upon the Lord’s people, by a leader known as Gog, from the ‘far reaches of the North’. He is mentioned again in Revelation 20:8-9 which uses Ezekiel’s prophecy to portray another, final attack against Israel. The result of this battle is that all are destroyed by fire and Satan is finally judged. Some differences are:

1/ The first battle involves only a few nations, the last will be every nation.

2/ There is no mention of Satan in Ezekiel 38-39, but in Revelation 20, he is the primary character.

3/ The Ezekiel battle says the dead will be gathered and buried for 7 months. The armies at the end of the Millennium are cremated instantly, by fire from heaven.

4/ The battle in Ezekiel is used by God to display His power. In Revelation, people have been faithful to God for 1000 years. Those in Rev 20:7-10 who are rebellious are killed without any more opportunity for repentance.

Keras, you make some good points here.


Summarizing Ezekiel:
Keras: "A people dwelling securely – not the case at present."
And
"Dwelling without walls – in modern terms: undefended borders."

These are excellent points.

Keras: "There is no mention of Satan in Ezekiel 38-39, but in Revelation 20, he is the primary character."

Satan is certainly the villain in Revelation 20, but is not identified as a participant in Ezekiel.

 

[Douggg]

There are a number of seven year periods in the Bible. Ezekiel says that Israel will have fuel for seven years. Ezekiel also tells us that the Israelites will be burning weapons. If they are burning weapons, that means that Israel is at peace, they don't expect to need the weapons.

It could also mean that the Jews who had fled into the wilderness when the abomination of desolation is setup will be burning the fuel scavenged from the Gog's vehicles strewing the land. I don't think the weapons themselves made of steel and other metals will be what is burned.

Doug: "Start at Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to Earth at His Second Coming."

We don't know this. The passage doesn't mention the coming Messiah.

Jesus is recapping why Israel went to in exile for transgressing against Him, i.e. rejecting him as the messiah. In Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus he brings every single Jews back to the land of Israel, corresponding to Matthew 24:31.

_______________________________________________________

The confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years, by the Antichrist is what begins the 7 years.

Why would the Jews think the little horn person coming from the EU is the messiah to be doing that big speech from the temple mount?

It is because the Jews believe the messiah will fight the battles of God in defending Israel. And he is a great politician and military mind. And in Daniel 8:23, the little horn person stands up - an idiom for getting ready to go to war.

In Daniel 8:9, he heads south and east with a strong army, i.e. waxes strong in that direction, toward the promised land.

So it takes putting those things together. Gog/Magog will have mobilized. The leader of the EU sees what is about to happen, and stages his army in greece to act a deterent.

Gog/Magog attacks, and God suppernaturally destroys Gog's army, followed by the little horn moving his army into the middle east on the premise of peace keeper in the region (but for the ten kings to grab control of all the oil).

The Jew will see the little horn's intent to defend Israel as being that of the messiah, and they already think many of them, that the messianic age follows Gog/Magog.

Coupled with him being a great politician as leader of the EU.

From the Judaim101.org site.....


The Mashiach
The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

 

[Dale]

In zec 14,zechariah talks about the countries attacking Jerusalem. This war he is speaking of is often called Armegeddon. It consists of the Islamic countries around Israel attacking Israel and taking control of Jerusalem. In reality they would like to today. In comparing scripture such as zec, Daniel, revelation, and the gospel, we find that the countries within the promised land are all destroyed in this war. Countries such as Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and the Palestinians in Gaza will no longer exist. Egypt is destroyed also. But most of Egypt lay outside of the promised land. After the promised land is destroyed, it is given to the saints of Israel who overcame the beast.All of the land from the Euphrates River to the Nile. They can be seen in Revelation 20 living in Jerusalem when Gog invades Israel. All of the promised land will be the land of Israel at that time. Ezekiel briefly mentions the war of Armegeddon when talking about Gogs invasion. Ezekiel wrote that the land will have recovered from war when Gog invades. The war he is speaking of in this verse is Armegeddon.

Ezekiel 38:8 NIV: After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

These who Ezekiel says are safe are the resurrected saints revelation talks about.

Revelation 20:9 KJV: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Remember this. Armeggedon is located in Israel. This is not a worldwide event. This war is regional. The USA can play a part in this war as it has in several Middle Eastern wars. But the war is still regional.1000 years after Armegeddon, when Gog invades Israel, that becomes a worldwide event. After that, there will be a new earth.

Shiloh: "Egypt is destroyed also."

25 The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”
Isaiah 19:25 NIV

If Egypt is destroyed, when does God say "Blessed be Egypt my people"?

 

[Marilyn C]

Many Christians concerned about the end times see the war described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 as imminent-- it could happen in our lifetimes.

For instance, Biblewriter.com says that this invasion of Israel will be "predominantly Muslim." Gog, mentioned in both chapters, could be "a name for the Last-Days' Dictator."

Apocalypsesoon.org says: "Ezekiel's war probably will occur soon after the coming conflict between Syria/Egypt and Israel, which could happen any moment. It's probable that the next war will be the 'hooks in the jaw' (Ezek.38:4) that draws Russia, Iran and their allies directly into this regional conflict."

Alphanewsdaily says: "In Ezekiel 38-39 the Bible warns this coming war between Russia, Iran, and Israel will take place sometime AFTER Israel would be re-gathered into Her land as a nation (which was fulfilled on May 14, 1948). "

Among the problems with this scenario are horses, Egypt, walls, bodies and arrows.

The prophecy in Ezekiel 38 & 39 is attributed directly to God. The "Sovereign Lord" either "says" or "declares" prophecy no less than fifteen times in two chapters, in the NIV. One of the things the Lord says is that the invading army will be on horseback. Ezekiel 38:5 says that "a great horde" will come from "the far north," "all of them riding on horses." No tanks, no jeeps, no trucks, no planes or helicopters, just horses.

Biblewriter.com dismisses this image of an ancient army and assures us that the army coming against Israel will be equipped with modern weapons. "God is giving the prophet a word picture of a heavily armed group of soldiers," we are told.

It looks like the literalists are only literal when it takes them where they want to go. The Word of God is literally true until the literalists decide otherwise. I have run into those who take the idea of a modern cavalry invasion seriously. Very unlikely. I will say more on arrows, horses and Armageddon in Post 2.

Those who say that Ezekiel predicts a modern invasion of Israel from the north repeatedly say that Egypt won't be involved. Biblewriter.com observes that Egypt has been an enemy of Israel from the beginning but finds no sign of Egypt in these chapters. BW calls it "one of the oddest aspects" of the prophecy.

Apocalypsesoon.org says that "Egypt and Syria" "are missing from Ezekiel."

The absence of Egypt would be puzzling since Egypt has the largest population in the Arab world. If the Arabs are going to attack Israel, Egyptian participation would seem to be a must. If the absence of Egypt is odd, stop worrying. These interpreters are simply wrong.
Ezekiel 38:5: " Persia, Cush[c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets ... " The NIV footnotes Cush: "That is, the upper Nile region." Ezekiel mentions Cush among the attackers, and Cush is part of Egypt. For simplicity, Cush is Egypt. How did learned interpreters miss this?

In Ezekiel 39:11, the Sovereign Lord describes the attitude of the invaders. "You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars."

Biblewriter.com sees this as pointing to modern times. In Ezekiel's time, important cities were walled for defense. Today, walls are obsolete, at least for that purpose, so we have "unwalled villages."

But does this description of towns without walls really point to modern Israel? It isn't obvious, especially when you realize that security fences serve the same purpose as walls.
On January 20, 2016, the Times of Israel carried the headline:
Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan.

Lead sentence: "Israel has begun work on a long security fence along its border with Jordan, the only one of its internationally recognized frontiers currently without a physical barrier." A much longer security fence had already been started on the border with Lebanon. There is also a modern security barrier around East Jerusalem.

Settlements in the territories are heavily walled or fenced. On February 16, 2016, NPR ran a story:
In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

"In the past months of increased violence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Palestinian attackers have cut or jumped fences surrounding Israeli settlements several times, stabbing and twice killing Israeli civilians."

The story has two photos of security fences connected to West Bank settlements. The notion of modern Israel as a land of unwalled or unfenced towns ignores a lot of facts. The area certainly isn't peaceful, with an unsuspecting population.

Ezekiel says that it will take seven months to bury the dead after the invaders are destroyed. Interpreters see this in terms of biological, chemical or nuclear warfare. (Yes, I know, we started with horses!)

Biblewriter.com says they "let the professionals carry the stuff away to a designated waste area. Sounds like the remains will be radioactive. Or toxic."

Alphanewsdaily says that "professionals" will bury the dead using procedures suitable for a "military nuclear/biological/chemical" situation.

Ezekiel doesn't really back this up and I'm not sure it makes sense. "All the people of the land will bury them," we are told in Ezekiel 39:13. That doesn't sound like the job is reserved for trained professionals. In Ezekiel 39:15, burials are handled by "the gravediggers." Still doesn't sound like professionals in special suits. (Quotes are NIV.) Another point that doesn't occur to these interpreters is that under Old Testament law, contact with a corpse, or a cemetery, creates ritual impurity. Jewish law requires burial as well, so there are reasons for burying enemy soldiers in designated places that have nothing to do with nuclear or chemical weapons.

Here's another problem. The theme of these two chapters of Ezekiel is that God defends Israel. Either God crushes the enemy invaders or He arranges for them to be destroyed. God hands Israel a victory which causes them to celebrate and glorify God. If considerable areas are left as a radioactive wasteland, that doesn't sound like much of a victory. If God's purpose is to defend Israel from ungodly opponents, surely He would do better.


Links

Bible Writer -- Revelation Study: Ezekiel's War (Ch. 38-39)

Apocalypse soon - The X files - EZEKIEL'S WAR - A Russian-led invasion of Israel

Bible Prophecy - Russia, Iran, Turkey and Allies Against Israel

Israel starts massive fence on southern border with Jordan

In The West Bank, Barriers Don't Necessarily Make Good Neighbors

The place where there are mountains and unwalled villages is the Golan Heights in the north of Israel on the Syrian border. The (far) northern army, Russia, is building up its military in Syria. It has a port, three military bases and an airport in Syria. Also Iran is presently there, as well as Russia helping out Libya in its civil war.

Next we need to realise that the UN and most countries of the world do not recognise Israel`s ownership of the Golan Heights. Israel took it in the 6 day war, (1967). So if and when the Russian Federation decides to go and take the Golan Heights, (for Syria) then the world will not come against them

 

[keras]

Jesus is recapping why Israel went to in exile for transgressing against Him, i.e. rejecting him as the messiah. In Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus he brings every single Jews back to the land of Israel, corresponding to Matthew 24:31.

Totally incorrect.
Jesus will gather His own people; born again Christians, a few will be Jews; all will be people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

As for Judaism 101 about the Mashaich, that is complete nonsense, wishful thinking that contradicts the Bible. Why even look at it?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Shiloh: "Egypt is destroyed also."

25 The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”
Isaiah 19:25 NIV

If Egypt is destroyed, when does God say "Blessed be Egypt my people"?

At the same time.
But as Ezekiel said, no one will be able to live in Egypt 40 years. You should understand this for obvious reasons with today's weapons.
Only those in Christ are blessed.. Muslims are not. The majority of Egypt is Muslim. The same as Assyria. Assyria is also destroyed in this same war.But those in Christ are blessed.
David also wrote about Armegeddon.
Psalm 83:5 For with one mind they plot together, they form an alliance against You--
Psalm 83:6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, of Moab and the Hagrites,
Psalm 83:7 of Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek, of Philistia with the people of Tyre.
Psalm 83:8 Even Assyria has joined them, lending strength to the sons of Lot. Selah

Although the ten nations of the beast which fight against the Lamb are destroyed, there will be few who are not. Keep in mind, there are few Christians in these nations.

Zechariah 14:16 Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Dale]

The place where there are mountains and unwalled villages is the Golan Heights in the north of Israel on the Syrian border. The (far) northern army, Russia, is building up its military in Syria. It has a port, three military bases and an airport in Syria. Also Iran is presently there, as well as Russia helping out Libya in its civil war.

Next we need to realise that the UN and most countries of the world do not recognise Israel`s ownership of the Golan Heights. Israel took it in the 6 day war, (1967). So if and when the Russian Federation decides to go and take the Golan Heights, (for Syria) then the world will not come against them



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View attachment 280348

Marilyn,


Welcome to Christian Forums, since you are a Newbie.

While it's hard to say how the world would react to such a move, a few points should be kept in mind. Russia under Vladimir Putin has shown itself to be expansionist by its actions in the Crimea. The Syrian regime, under Assad, has killed tens of thousands of its own people in a lengthy civil war. The number of deaths amounts to genocide, at least in numbers. It is difficult to believe the world will forget these things anytime soon. Someone can make a legalistic case that Israel doesn't own the Golan Heights but it is difficult to believe the people who live there would be better off as combatants in the Syrian civil war.


Suppose that Syria stabilizes enough to consider such an adventure. If Russia allied with Syria to take the Golan Heights, would any of the world's leaders be foolish enough to think Russia would stop with the Golan Heights?

 

[Dale]

At the same time.
But as Ezekiel said, no one will be able to live in Egypt 40 years. You should understand this for obvious reasons with today's weapons.
Only those in Christ are blessed.. Muslims are not. The majority of Egypt is Muslim. The same as Assyria. Assyria is also destroyed in this same war.But those in Christ are blessed.
David also wrote about Armegeddon.
Psalm 83:5 For with one mind they plot together, they form an alliance against You--
Psalm 83:6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, of Moab and the Hagrites,
Psalm 83:7 of Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek, of Philistia with the people of Tyre.
Psalm 83:8 Even Assyria has joined them, lending strength to the sons of Lot. Selah

Although the ten nations of the beast which fight against the Lamb are destroyed, there will be few who are not. Keep in mind, there are few Christians in these nations.

Zechariah 14:16 Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Shiloh, I'll reply in more detail but first I'd like to point something out.

Shiloh: "Only those in Christ are blessed.. Muslims are not. The majority of Egypt is Muslim. The same as Assyria. Assyria is also destroyed in this same war."

You seem to be saying that God will destroy Egypt because Egypt is Muslim. Why? The Muslim world reaches from Morocco to Indonesia. Why does God destroy Egypt in particular? Especially if He isn't going to do the same the rest of the Muslim world?

Assyria is destroyed in the same war? There is no such country as Assyria. There are only about two thousand ethnic Assyrians in the world.