Problem with Election

[Dorothy Mae]

As a practical matter, we must assume freedom and act accordingly. But Paul declares the underlying reality and our personal responsibility in Rom. 9:14-21.
I am Christian, but why do you have only 2 option?
And Jesus was talking to believing Jews in Jn.8:32. What are we set free from?

We are set free from a number of burdens if we keep Jesus’ teaching and receive from him truth,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Huh?

Shall I explain?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You mean the apostle Paul was Calvinist! This is shocking news!

No he wasn’t. I was saying what Calvinists day at times. It is not what anyone described in the Bible thought. That is my point.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If a choice is predestined and cannot deviate, there no free will. Saying otherwise requires shutting down the mind.

Everything that happens in the history of creation happens exactly as God always knew it would happen if and when He acted in certain ways. He acted and continues to act in certain ways and not act in other ways according to His own choices. By the actions of God and by the things He "allows" to take place instead of other things - God has predestined all that takes place.

All geological matters make no choices ever whatsoever. If you think our choices are like rocks, then you have embraced the idea that we have no free will. Rocks have no free will

How silly.

Just want to point you that your Calvinism says God predestined to live like that. That is evil. Predestining that makes the one who does that evil.

No - God is not evil.

God has decreed that things in history fall out according to secondary causes. Those secondary causes (the choices made by men in this case) will be righteously judged by God in time. That is basic Bible truth and has nothing to do with Calvinism per se. All Bible believers know these things to be true.

If you believe God to be evil for so decreeing how things will be in His creation - you must deal with that yourself between God and you.

I, for one, believe God is still righteous in His methods because He tells me so. This - in spite of appearances.

All Calvinists attribute evil to God every time they say God predestined some for hell with no hope.

God knew from the foundation of the world exactly who would Go to Hell because of their choices and who would go to Heaven because of their choices. He has "forced" no one to make those choices.

The predestination of all things which take place in God's creation in no ways negates the free will of men.

Neither I nor so called Calvinists wrote the scriptures on which we base our beliefs.

You and I both live and move and have your being in God and are not, ourselves, God. Learn to live with that fact.

This is intellectual suicide. You say God predestined the drug addict to live 30 years like that and then say it’s because of the mans choices.

No - it is the opposite of intellectual suicide. It is well reasoned and it is according to the teaching of the Holy Spirit Who has been given to believers. It is not only inescapable logic given the nature of God and the nature of man as those natures have been explained to us - it is exactly as God has told us it is.

Which is true for the calvinist because rationally you cannot have God fix a man’s choices without possible deviation and the man also be able to make free choices.

God says it's possible and I believe Him.

We are only "free" in the sense He has decreed us to be free.

Again - He's God and we are not. Learn to live with it.

Your problem seems to be with God and not with Calvinists.

It seems to me that the issues you cite are true for all Bible believers. You can only palm them off as Calvinist issues if you refuse to face them yourself by ignoring the nature of things as God has told us they are.

I have to shut down my computer now and move.

I must say though, in closing, that it seems to me that those who try to refute many of these basic tenets of the Reformed faith must almost have to be worshiping a different God than the one revealed to us in the scriptures.

Good luck in your quest to make God over into something more understandable to you. You have a lot of company in that quest and I'll leave you all to it.

 

[Radagast]

If something is IRRESISTIBLE, HOW am I able to decide against it??? It means I CANNOT decide against it.

Yes, exactly.

 

[Radagast]

If a choice is predestined and cannot deviate, there no free will.

Yes there is, depending on your definition of "free will."

If you keep using that phrase "free will," maybe you should find out what meanings it has.

All Calvinists attribute evil to God every time they say God predestined some for hell with no hope.

No, they don't.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Not one?

Clement of Rome 88 AD
“Let us therefore consider, brethren, out of what matter we are made; who and what we were when we came into the world, as out of the grave and darkness itself; who, having made and formed us, brought us into his world having first prepared his good things for us, before we were born,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 188.).

“This blessedness comes upon those that are chosen of God by Jesus Christ our Lord,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 114).


Justin Martyr . A.D. 150.
We bear, that we may not, “with our voice deny Christ, by whom we are called unto the salvation which is before prepared by our Father,” (Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 360).

“The Lord of glory, who exists for ever, would give to them all to enjoy honor and rest, with the elect,” (Epist. ad Zeuam et Sereu. p. 515.)

“The great things, which the Father hath in his counsel appointed for all men,” that are or shall be well-pleasing to him, and likewise those that depart from his will, whether angels or men, he only (Christ) hath most clearly taught, Matthew 8:11, 12, and 7:22, 23; and in other words, when he will condemn the unworthy that shall not be saved, he will say to them, “Go ye into outer darkness, which the Father hath prepared for Satan and his angels,” (Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 301.)

“God, out of all nations, took your nation to himself, a nation unprofitable, disobedient, and unfaithful; thereby pointing out, those that are chosen out of every nation to obey his will, by Christ, whom also he calls Jacob, and names Israel,” (Dialog. cum Tryph, 359, 360.).

Irenaeus. A.D. 180.
“God is not so poor and indigent as not to give to every body its own soul as its proper form. Hence, having completed the number which he before determined with himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto life, shall rise again, having their own bodies, souls, and spirits, in which they pleased God; but those who are deserving of punishment shall go into it, having also their own souls and bodies in which they departed from the grace of God,” (L. 2, c. 62, inter Fragment. Graec. ad. calcem).

Clement of Alexandria. A.D. 190.

“That virtue which holds the church together is faith, by which the elect of God are saved,” (Stromat. 50:2, p. 384.)

“According to the fitness which every one has, He, that is, God, distributes his benefits both to the Greeks and to the Barbarians; and to them who are predestinated from among them, and are in his own time called, faithful, and elect,” (Ibid. 50:7, p. 702, 703.).

“Jeremiah 1:5, 7, Do not say, I am a child; before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee, etc., his note upon it is, this prophecy intimates unto us, that those who before the foundation of the world are known by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by him to faith, are now babes, because of the will of God lately fulfilled, as we are new-born unto vocation and salvation,” (Paedadog. 50:1, c. 7, p. 111.)

“It is not becoming, that a friend of God, on whom God has predestinated before the foundation of the world, to be put into the high adoption of children, should fall into pleasures or fears, and be unemployed in repressing the passions,” (Stromat. 50:6, p. 652.)

Origen A.D 230
“Ye have already learned above (in Lecture XLV.) who the sheep are: be ye sheep. They are sheep through believing, sheep in following the Shepherd, sheep in not despising their Redeemer, sheep in entering by the door, sheep in going out and finding pasture, sheep in the enjoyment of eternal life. What did He mean, then, in saying to them, “Ye are not of my sheep”? That He saw them predestined to everlasting destruction, not won to eternal life by the price of His own blood,” (Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John. Tractates XLV to XLIX, Chapter 10.22-42, par. 4).

And they shall never perish:” you may hear the undertone, as if He had said to them, Ye shall perish for ever, because ye are not of my sheep. “No one shall pluck them out of my hand.” Give still greater heed to this: “That which my Father gave me is greater than all.”What can the wolf do? What can the thief and the robber? They destroy none but those predestined to destruction. But of those sheep of which the apostle says, “The Lord knoweth them that are His;” and “Whom He did foreknow, them He also did predestinate; and whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified;”–there is none of such sheep as these that the wolf seizes, or the thief steals, or the robber slays.(Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John. Tractates XLV to XLIX, Chapter 10.22-42, par. 6)

Cyprian A.D. 250

“It seems that the knowledge of God is greater than to be comprehended by human nature, hence are so many mistakes in men concerning God, but by the goodness and love of God to man, and through wondrous and divine grace, the knowledge of God comes to them who were before comprehended in the foreknowledge of God; or, according to the version of Gelenius, who to this were predestinated,” (Contra cells. 1. 7, p. 361, 362.).

“All these things look this way, that the apostle may prove this; That if either Isaac or Jacob, for their merits, had been chosen to those things which they, being in the flesh sought after, and, by the works of the flesh, had deserved to be justified; then the grace of their merit might belong to the posterity of flesh and blood also, but now, since, their election does not arise from works, but from the purpose of God, from the will of him that calleth,” (In Rom.l. 7, fol. 195, G.).​

Just a sampling.

This is the problem with Calvinism.
You read words and jump on words that seem to agree with that theology.

OSAS did not exist before Calvin.
Predestination did not exist before Calvin, who borrowed part of the idea from Augustine.

So how could any ECF speak of a theory that was not even thought of yet?

I could speak to each of the above, but there's no time now.
You see Justin, for example, as to the blue highlighted, he speaks of the elect. And who are these elect? As usual, and as shown in Romans 9 to 11, they are the elect of God, the nation of Israel through whom God wished to reveal Himself.

See Mathew 8:11-12 which is mentioned in parenthesis right after the "elect".

Mathew 8:11-12 Jesus said:
11“I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The centurion is one of the first people who will come from the East and the West, from all over the world, to join with the sons of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob -- the Jews.
And then the Jews who have no faith will be thrown out into the dark where there will be gnashing of teeth.
This goes to the Wedding Banquet in Mathew. Those not dressed properly (In Christ) will be removed from the banquet.

The elect are the Jews.
The concept of predestining persons to go to heaven and persons to go to hell is AGAINST God's nature, therefore when we read the word "elect" we should pauses and look into what it means.

As to the green...as in other verses in the N.T. this only means that God created a method for men to be saved from the beginning of time. We are called by the SALVATION which has been prepared beforehand by God, as in Genesis 3:15. We can enjoy this salvation and rest WITH THE ELECT, the Jews. We are grafted in.

Here is something from Justin:

In the books of the Prophets, indeed, we found Jesus our Christ foretold as coming to us born of a virgin, reaching manhood, curing every disease and ailment, raising the dead to life, being hated, unrecognized, and crucified, dying, rising from the dead, ascending into Heaven, and being called and actually being the Son of God. And that He would send certain persons to every nation to make known these things, and that the former Gentiles rather [than Jews] would believe in Him. He was foretold, in truth, before He actually appeared, first five thousand years before, then four thousand, then three thousand, then two thousand, then one thousand, and finally eight hundred. For, in succeeding generations new Prophets rose time and again.{32}

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes there is, depending on your definition of "free will."

If you keep using that phrase "free will," maybe you should find out what meanings it has.



No, they don't.

R,
IF God predestined everything by moving in a certain way to cause to happen what He wants to happen,
This means that everything that happens is happening because GOD wants it to happen by moving in a certain way.

If everything happens because God wants it to, it means HE'S causing everything---even evil. Murder, stealing, cursing God, everything.

God says that we will be forgiven for everything except blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

IF God is causing us to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, how could He then hold US responsible for it and not forgive us?

This is why compatible free will is not possible.
We either have free will or we don't. The calvinist view of "free will" makes no sense at all.

YOU check into libertarian free will and see if you like the sound of that since it's the free will God gave us.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes, exactly.

 

[συνείδησις]

Here is a question for the group regarding total depravity. If we are incapable of anything but sin before we come to God, why are there nonbelievers who lead moral lives and do lots of good things, who love their families and fellow men, who treat people better than a lot of “Christians” do? Is that a totally depraved soul?

That is why the doctrine of total depravity is totally depraved.

 

[Bobber]

Even Paul grieved for his fellow brethren, the Jews and was willing to give his life if they could become saved.
Romans 9:3

Which brings up an interesting point...
Paul was more heart grieved for his fellow brethren than God is for humanity according to calvinists!
IOW, Paul loves humans more than God does (according to them).

Thanks for your thoughts.

And just to add on to that. If Paul was here today and expressed such a sentiment...what would Calvinists say to him? Wouldn't it be, "Hey Paul that's really being disrespectful to God! You're challenging the wisdom of God's sovereign will! If God meant for them to be saved they'd be saved so Paul please...knock it off! You're going to leave the impression that God longs for ALL to be saved not just us lucky ones or especially blessed! If God meant for you to go to heaven and not they and you're sad about it you should know that you're going against the pleasure of God! No worries though! We'll send you back in time the writings of Calvin and I'm sure you'll find they'll make things perfectly clear."

Well a question to Calvinists here...What would you say to Paul??

 

[GodsGrace101]

And just to add on to that. If Paul was here today and expressed such a sentiment...what would Calvinists say to him? Wouldn't it be, "Hey Paul that's really being disrespectful to God! You're challenging the wisdom of God's sovereign will! If God meant for them to be saved they'd be saved so Paul please...knock it off! You're going to leave the impression that God longs for ALL to be saved not just us lucky ones or especially blessed! If God meant for you to go to heaven and not they and you're sad about it you should know that you're going against the pleasure of God! No worries though! We'll send you back in time the writings of Calvin and I'm sure you'll find they'll make things perfectly clear."

Well a question to Calvinists here...What would you say to Paul??

Pretty funny!
I wish I could give you a "like" too!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes there is, depending on your definition of "free will."

If you keep using that phrase "free will," maybe you should find out what meanings it has.

Again the personal insult when you are losing. Calvinists can do this without fear since they assume they are predestined for Heaven no matter how they treat others. That’s why the theology is popular.

No, they don't.

Yes they do. (What a ridiculous response. Is this your habit when you have no intelligent answer next to personal insults?)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And just to add on to that. If Paul was here today and expressed such a sentiment...what would Calvinists say to him? Wouldn't it be, "Hey Paul that's really being disrespectful to God! You're challenging the wisdom of God's sovereign will! If God meant for them to be saved they'd be saved so Paul please...knock it off! You're going to leave the impression that God longs for ALL to be saved not just us lucky ones or especially blessed! If God meant for you to go to heaven and not they and you're sad about it you should know that you're going against the pleasure of God! No worries though! We'll send you back in time the writings of Calvin and I'm sure you'll find they'll make things perfectly clear."

Well a question to Calvinists here...What would you say to Paul??

The sorrow of Paul and Jesus over the lost makes no sense at all for one. And for two, it’s making them more compassionate than God who supposedly predestined them for Hell without the slightest regret or compassion. This is how we know the Calvinist position is false.

 

[sdowney717]

Again the personal insult when you are losing. Calvinists can do this without fear since they assume they are predestined for Heaven no matter how they treat others. That’s why the theology is popular.
Yes they do. (What a ridiculous response. Is this your habit when you have no intelligent answer next to personal insults?)

I see yours is a works based salvation, doing good and being good and not making waves or rocking the boat. Like things the false prophets did. And your so boldly arrogant in your attacks on grace. You wont ever recognize this failing in your life unless God opens your mind and heart to understand His ways.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I see yours is a works based salvation, doing good and being good and not making waves or rocking the boat. Like things the false prophets did.

Where in my post do I mention works? You must be a Calvinist. They allow themselves to insult others calling others all manner of false nasty names since burning at the stake was outlawed and “bend” the truth as they please. You guys think you’re predestined for Heaven no matter what so you let your anger have its way. Loving your neighbor or God is an optional extra for you guys or maybe a “should” on better days.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Where in my post do I mention works? You must be a Calvinist. They allow themselves to insult others calling others all manner of false nasty names since burning at the stake was outlawed and “bend” the truth as they please. You guys think you’re predestined for Heaven no matter what so you let your anger have its way. Loving your neighbor or God is an optional extra for you guys or maybe a “should” on better days.

You're absolutely correct.

Read this:

Perseverance of the Saints Expressed
The Westminster Confession of Faith states,

"They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

"This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merits and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth, also, the certainty and infallibility thereof." (Chap. XIX, Sect. 1)



David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas affirm,

"The elect are not only redeemed by Christ and renewed by the Spirit; they are also kept in faith by the almighty power of God. All those who are spiritually united to Christ through regeneration are eternally secure in Him. Nothing can separate them from the eternal and unchangeable love of God. They have been predestinated unto eternal glory and are therefore assured of heaven.

"The doctrine of perseverance of the saints does not maintain that all who profess the Christian faith are certain of heaven. It is saints -- those who are set apart by the Spirit -- who persevere to the end. It is believers -- those who are given true, living faith in Christ -- who are secure and safe in Him. Many who profess to believe fall away, but they do not fall from grace for they were never in grace. True believers do fall into temptations, and they do commit grievous sins, but these sins do not cause them to lose their salvation or separate them from Christ." (The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defended, Documented, p. 56)

Sam Morris, a Baptist preacher, adds, "All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit, from idolatry to murder, will not make his soul in any more danger.…The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul." (Do a Christian's Sins Damn His Soul?)

A truly damnable theology that does not reflect Jesus or the N.T. at all.

John 14:15

 

[συνείδησις]

I see yours is a works based salvation, doing good and being good and not making waves or rocking the boat. Like things the false prophets did. And your so boldly arrogant in your attacks on grace. You wont ever recognize this failing in your life unless God opens your mind and heart to understand His ways.

grace ≠ absence of work

 

[συνείδησις]

Where in my post do I mention works? You must be a Calvinist. They allow themselves to insult others calling others all manner of false nasty names since burning at the stake was outlawed and “bend” the truth as they please. You guys think you’re predestined for Heaven no matter what so you let your anger have its way. Loving your neighbor or God is an optional extra for you guys or maybe a “should” on better days.

It's an involuntary reflex of the lawless grace crowd. Any hint of having to do anything in regards to salvation (like righteous behavior) generates a knee-jerk response to make sure you know the superiority of their gnosis.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I see yours is a works based salvation, doing good and being good and not making waves or rocking the boat. Like things the false prophets did. And your so boldly arrogant in your attacks on grace. You wont ever recognize this failing in your life unless God opens your mind and heart to understand His ways.

Why is it a failing if someone does not agree with you?
Why do you believe we're closed minded if we only agree with Jesus?

Where does Jesus say that works are not necessary?
Have I missed it?