Problem with Election

[ladodgers6]

Here is a question for the group regarding total depravity. If we are incapable of anything but sin before we come to God, why are there nonbelievers who lead moral lives and do lots of good things, who love their families and fellow men, who treat people better than a lot of “Christians” do? Is that a totally depraved soul?

You have a high view of man, and a low standard view of God's holiness. Even the Pharisees high level of righteousness was not good enough. Christ called them white wash tombs! They appear clean on the outside, but dead man bones on the inside.

 

[redleghunter]

The early theologians pre the Nicene council, IOW, in 325AD.
NOT ONE theologian ever had this concept of God choosing people to be saved.

Not one?

Clement of Rome 88 AD
“Let us therefore consider, brethren, out of what matter we are made; who and what we were when we came into the world, as out of the grave and darkness itself; who, having made and formed us, brought us into his world having first prepared his good things for us, before we were born,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 188.).

“This blessedness comes upon those that are chosen of God by Jesus Christ our Lord,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 114).


Justin Martyr . A.D. 150.
We bear, that we may not, “with our voice deny Christ, by whom we are called unto the salvation which is before prepared by our Father,” (Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 360).

“The Lord of glory, who exists for ever, would give to them all to enjoy honor and rest, with the elect,” (Epist. ad Zeuam et Sereu. p. 515.)

“The great things, which the Father hath in his counsel appointed for all men,” that are or shall be well-pleasing to him, and likewise those that depart from his will, whether angels or men, he only (Christ) hath most clearly taught, Matthew 8:11, 12, and 7:22, 23; and in other words, when he will condemn the unworthy that shall not be saved, he will say to them, “Go ye into outer darkness, which the Father hath prepared for Satan and his angels,” (Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 301.)

“God, out of all nations, took your nation to himself, a nation unprofitable, disobedient, and unfaithful; thereby pointing out, those that are chosen out of every nation to obey his will, by Christ, whom also he calls Jacob, and names Israel,” (Dialog. cum Tryph, 359, 360.).

Irenaeus. A.D. 180.
“God is not so poor and indigent as not to give to every body its own soul as its proper form. Hence, having completed the number which he before determined with himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto life, shall rise again, having their own bodies, souls, and spirits, in which they pleased God; but those who are deserving of punishment shall go into it, having also their own souls and bodies in which they departed from the grace of God,” (L. 2, c. 62, inter Fragment. Graec. ad. calcem).

Clement of Alexandria. A.D. 190.

“That virtue which holds the church together is faith, by which the elect of God are saved,” (Stromat. 50:2, p. 384.)

“According to the fitness which every one has, He, that is, God, distributes his benefits both to the Greeks and to the Barbarians; and to them who are predestinated from among them, and are in his own time called, faithful, and elect,” (Ibid. 50:7, p. 702, 703.).

“Jeremiah 1:5, 7, Do not say, I am a child; before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee, etc., his note upon it is, this prophecy intimates unto us, that those who before the foundation of the world are known by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by him to faith, are now babes, because of the will of God lately fulfilled, as we are new-born unto vocation and salvation,” (Paedadog. 50:1, c. 7, p. 111.)

“It is not becoming, that a friend of God, on whom God has predestinated before the foundation of the world, to be put into the high adoption of children, should fall into pleasures or fears, and be unemployed in repressing the passions,” (Stromat. 50:6, p. 652.)

Origen A.D 230
“Ye have already learned above (in Lecture XLV.) who the sheep are: be ye sheep. They are sheep through believing, sheep in following the Shepherd, sheep in not despising their Redeemer, sheep in entering by the door, sheep in going out and finding pasture, sheep in the enjoyment of eternal life. What did He mean, then, in saying to them, “Ye are not of my sheep”? That He saw them predestined to everlasting destruction, not won to eternal life by the price of His own blood,” (Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John. Tractates XLV to XLIX, Chapter 10.22-42, par. 4).

And they shall never perish:” you may hear the undertone, as if He had said to them, Ye shall perish for ever, because ye are not of my sheep. “No one shall pluck them out of my hand.” Give still greater heed to this: “That which my Father gave me is greater than all.”What can the wolf do? What can the thief and the robber? They destroy none but those predestined to destruction. But of those sheep of which the apostle says, “The Lord knoweth them that are His;” and “Whom He did foreknow, them He also did predestinate; and whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified;”–there is none of such sheep as these that the wolf seizes, or the thief steals, or the robber slays.(Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John. Tractates XLV to XLIX, Chapter 10.22-42, par. 6)

Cyprian A.D. 250

“It seems that the knowledge of God is greater than to be comprehended by human nature, hence are so many mistakes in men concerning God, but by the goodness and love of God to man, and through wondrous and divine grace, the knowledge of God comes to them who were before comprehended in the foreknowledge of God; or, according to the version of Gelenius, who to this were predestinated,” (Contra cells. 1. 7, p. 361, 362.).

“All these things look this way, that the apostle may prove this; That if either Isaac or Jacob, for their merits, had been chosen to those things which they, being in the flesh sought after, and, by the works of the flesh, had deserved to be justified; then the grace of their merit might belong to the posterity of flesh and blood also, but now, since, their election does not arise from works, but from the purpose of God, from the will of him that calleth,” (In Rom.l. 7, fol. 195, G.).​

Just a sampling.

 

[redleghunter]

No Calvinist would have had that reaction. They either would have shrugged their shoulders and said "God's ways are higher than ours" believing He ordained that state of rejection or would have said "let 'em burn." But weeping? Never.

Huh?

 

[redleghunter]

That is not what "total depravity" means.

The noble savage head hunting cannibal agrees.

 

[redleghunter]

Since for the Calvinist "God is sovereign" means He gets his will done including making those who are chosen to be saved believe and blind those He chose not to be saved, that is exactly what Calvinist theology believes.

You mean the apostle Paul was Calvinist! This is shocking news!

 

[Radagast]

You mean the apostle Paul was Calvinist! This is shocking news!

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is moulded say to its moulder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honourable use and another for dishonourable use? (Romans 9:14-21)

 

[ladodgers6]

Not one?

Clement of Rome 88 AD
“Let us therefore consider, brethren, out of what matter we are made; who and what we were when we came into the world, as out of the grave and darkness itself; who, having made and formed us, brought us into his world having first prepared his good things for us, before we were born,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1. 88.).

“This blessedness comes upon those that are chosen of God by Jesus Christ our Lord,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1. 114).


Justin Martyr . A.D. 150.
We bear, that we may not, “with our voice deny Christ, by whom we are called unto the salvation which is before prepared by our Father,” (Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 360).

“The Lord of glory, who exists for ever, would give to them all to enjoy honor and rest, with the elect,” (Epist. ad Zeuam et Sereu. p. 515.)

“The great things, which the Father hath in his counsel appointed for all men,” that are or shall be well-pleasing to him, and likewise those that depart from his will, whether angels or men, he only (Christ) hath most clearly taught, Matthew 8:11, 12, and 7:22, 23; and in other words, when he will condemn the unworthy that shall not be saved, he will say to them, “Go ye into outer darkness, which the Father hath prepared for Satan and his angels,” (Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 301.)

“God, out of all nations, took your nation to himself, a nation unprofitable, disobedient, and unfaithful; thereby pointing out, those that are chosen out of every nation to obey his will, by Christ, whom also he calls Jacob, and names Israel,” (Dialog. cum Tryph, 359, 360.).

Irenaeus. A.D. 180.
“God is not so poor and indigent as not to give to every body its own soul as its proper form. Hence, having completed the number which he before determined with himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto life, shall rise again, having their own bodies, souls, and spirits, in which they pleased God; but those who are deserving of punishment shall go into it, having also their own souls and bodies in which they departed from the grace of God,” (L. 2, c. 62, inter Fragment. Graec. ad. calcem).

Clement of Alexandria. A.D. 190.

“That virtue which holds the church together is faith, by which the elect of God are saved,” (Stromat. 50:2, p. 384.)

“According to the fitness which every one has, He, that is, God, distributes his benefits both to the Greeks and to the Barbarians; and to them who are predestinated from among them, and are in his own time called, faithful, and elect,” (Ibid. 50:7, p. 702, 703.).

“Jeremiah 1:5, 7, Do not say, I am a child; before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee, etc., his note upon it is, this prophecy intimates unto us, that those who before the foundation of the world are known by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by him to faith, are now babes, because of the will of God lately fulfilled, as we are new-born unto vocation and salvation,” (Paedadog. 50:1, c. 7, p. 111.)

“It is not becoming, that a friend of God, on whom God has predestinated before the foundation of the world, to be put into the high adoption of children, should fall into pleasures or fears, and be unemployed in repressing the passions,” (Stromat. 50:6, p. 652.)

Origen A.D 230
“Ye have already learned above (in Lecture XLV.) who the sheep are: be ye sheep. They are sheep through believing, sheep in following the Shepherd, sheep in not despising their Redeemer, sheep in entering by the door, sheep in going out and finding pasture, sheep in the enjoyment of eternal life. What did He mean, then, in saying to them, “Ye are not of my sheep”? That He saw them predestined to everlasting destruction, not won to eternal life by the price of His own blood,” (Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John. Tractates XLV to XLIX, Chapter 10.22-42, par. 4).

And they shall never perish:” you may hear the undertone, as if He had said to them, Ye shall perish for ever, because ye are not of my sheep. “No one shall pluck them out of my hand.” Give still greater heed to this: “That which my Father gave me is greater than all.”What can the wolf do? What can the thief and the robber? They destroy none but those predestined to destruction. But of those sheep of which the apostle says, “The Lord knoweth them that are His;” and “Whom He did foreknow, them He also did predestinate; and whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified;”–there is none of such sheep as these that the wolf seizes, or the thief steals, or the robber slays.(Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John. Tractates XLV to XLIX, Chapter 10.22-42, par. 6)

Cyprian A.D. 250

“It seems that the knowledge of God is greater than to be comprehended by human nature, hence are so many mistakes in men concerning God, but by the goodness and love of God to man, and through wondrous and divine grace, the knowledge of God comes to them who were before comprehended in the foreknowledge of God; or, according to the version of Gelenius, who to this were predestinated,” (Contra cells. 1. 7, p. 361, 362.).

“All these things look this way, that the apostle may prove this; That if either Isaac or Jacob, for their merits, had been chosen to those things which they, being in the flesh sought after, and, by the works of the flesh, had deserved to be justified; then the grace of their merit might belong to the posterity of flesh and blood also, but now, since, their election does not arise from works, but from the purpose of God, from the will of him that calleth,” (In Rom.l. 7, fol. 195, G.).​

Just a sampling.

Its odd how they think they know more Reformed Theology! Great Job, my brother! Share the wisdom!

 

[redleghunter]

Its odd how they think they know more Reformed Theology! Great Job, my brother! Share the wisdom!

The church fathers had a mixed bag of theology. But the unending claims Reformed theology was something new and had no ancient church support is pure ignorance of the Reformation.

John Calvin spoke volumes on church theologians throughout history. Here's a sample:

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Calvin, The Church Fathers, and The Roman Church

 

[needhugs]

Since for the Calvinist "God is sovereign" means He gets his will done including making those who are chosen to be saved believe and blind those He chose not to be saved, that is exactly what Calvinist theology believes. You see, if you start with God choosing this person and rejecting that person for heaven and they cannot miss either, then they are forced to believe or forced to want to believe or however you want to lay out the plan. God is the one choosing and those chosen cannot miss. Ergo, God is forcing them. If He makes them think they want to believe and they cannot choose otherwise, He is employing manipulation which is also forcing His will upon them. It is the same thing. What you do not have in Calvinism is the free will to reject what God wants for a man (salvation.) Since that is eliminated, God is forcing. There are no other choices.

hon? yes, God is sovereign, no i'm not a Calvinist, but free will, well... REALLY? coz i don't have any free will lol it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God... what Calvinists are not saying about it, is that this whole story doesn't end with our death... start googlin' 'The Victorious Gospel' or talk to me in private if you like...
Paul, on the road to Damascus... did he become a Christian by his own free will? lol NO!!!
but trust me, it's all good. PM me, i'll point you to some stuff.
Don't forget, when you say that God WILL have His will done in spite of everything and everyone... this 'IT IS NOT GOD'S WILL THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT AAAALLLL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE'... Try that on for starters once you know that God will have His will DONE.

 

[ladodgers6]

The church fathers had a mixed bag of theology. But the unending claims Reformed theology was something new and had no ancient church support is pure ignorance of the Reformation.

John Calvin spoke volumes on church theologians throughout history. Here's a sample:

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Calvin, The Church Fathers, and The Roman Church

Exactly, John Calvin was a Catholic, and got of his Theology from the church Fathers! The same with Luther, and the Reformers! Calvin & Luther, were educated in the old languages. So when they were reading Romans & Galatians, they knew there was a problem with what the Pope was teaching, and so challenge the Catholic Church on what they found!

 

[redleghunter]

hon? yes, God is sovereign, no i'm not a Calvinist, but free will, well... REALLY? coz i don't have any free will lol it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God... what Calvinists are not saying about it, is that this whole story doesn't end with our death... start googlin' 'The Victorious Gospel' or talk to me in private if you like...
Paul, on the road to Damascus... did he become a Christian by his own free will? lol NO!!!
but trust me, it's all good. PM me, i'll point you to some stuff.

Yeah, Paul's vacation plans of persecution were put on permanent hold.

 

[redleghunter]

Except Paul didn't write 2 Timothy. Out of all the New Testament letters ascribed to Paul, 7 are universally considered authentic, 3 are debated and 3 (the pastorals) are universally considered inauthentic.

Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works (sola fide) this is the heart of the protestant reformation.

Defend your assertions. All of the epistles you mention bear Paul's name. The burden of proof is on you.

Start another thread on this if you are confident to defend this.

 

[Radagast]

Except Paul didn't write 2 Timothy. Out of all the New Testament letters ascribed to Paul, 7 are universally considered authentic, 3 are debated and 3 (the pastorals) are universally considered inauthentic.

Garbage. A few liberal theologians consider the pastorals inauthentic, but not for any good reason, and against the 2000-year consensus of the Church.

 

[redleghunter]

Garbage. A few liberal theologians consider the pastorals inauthentic, but not for any good reason, and against the 2000-year consensus of the Church.

And none of the early church theologians debated His authorship.

 

[GodsGrace101]

God does good, God does evil... it's written somewhere in the Bible that evil is created for our humility... it's also written that the 'wicked' aren't won by 'favour'... but they come around quick when judgement falls... for some reason, even tho evil seems like a real bad idea to us, to God it's the best way to do things, you can tell, because Jesus suffered the most of all

So if God does evil, then He is an evil god.
So we're worshipping an evil god??

Should we be worshipping an evil god?
I thought satan was the evil one...

 

[needhugs]

So if God does evil, then He is an evil god.
So we're worshipping an evil god??

Should we be worshipping an evil god?
I thought satan was the evil one...

naw, it's more like God created the earth, but He 'let' the grass come up from the earth, He didn't create the grass, the earth did... But God is still the Creator.

God is perfect.

Think of the scriptures from Job like surgery... He cuts, but it's to heal.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi @ladodgers6
You bring up too many points and no time today,
but you said this:

Calvinism says that the grace of God which created the new willing man is irresistible. But it simply does not address the concept of the new man being able to or not being able to refuse the gospel if he were so inclined.

If something is IRRESISTIBLE, HOW am I able to decide against it??? It means I CANNOT decide against it.

irresistible
ɪrɪˈzɪstɪb(ə)l/
adjective

1. too attractive and tempting to be resisted.
   "he found the delicious-looking cakes irresistible"
   sinonimi: tempting, enticing, alluring, inviting, seductive; Altro
   
   • too powerful or convincing to be resisted.
     "she felt an irresistible urge to object"
     sinonimi: uncontrollable, overwhelming, overpowering, compelling, compulsive, besetting, irrepressible, ungovernable;

irresistible
US /ˌɪr·ɪˈzɪs·tə·bəl/
impossible to refuse, oppose, or avoid because too pleasant,attractive, or strong:


irresistible
(ɪrɪzɪstɪbəl
1. adjective
If you describe something such as a desire or force as irresistible, you mean that it is so powerful that it makes you act in a certain way, and there is nothing you can do to preventthis.

 

[GodsGrace101]

1. We don't know

2. Because God chose the Great Commission

We see both come together here:

Acts 18: NASB
9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

God had "many" people in this city of Corinth. A major "crossroads" in that part of the Roman Empire:

The City Of Corinth
Corinth is located in southern Greece about 50 miles from Athens, and about two miles south of the narrow isthmus that forms a land bridge between the main landmass of Greece and the Peloponnesus. The isthmus is less than four miles wide. Corinth controlled the two major harbors and thus command of the trade routes between Asia and Rome. In ancient days small ships were dragged across the isthmus on a paved road; larger ships unloaded their cargo, which was then carried across the isthmus and then reloaded onto other ships.

"One of the most important factors drawing Paul to Corinth was its strategic location on the narrow isthmus connecting central Greece to the southern land mass of the Peloponnese. Even more important than the land travel north and south, however, was the sea travel cast and west through the Saronic Gulf and the Gulf of Corinth, lapping the eastern and western shores of the isthmus respectively. The Roman poet Horace wrote in praise of 'twin-sea'd Corinth.' Ship captains plying the northern Mediterranean sea route between Europe and the Aegean Sea much preferred to bring their vessels through the sheltered waters of these two gulfs rather than to add over 200 miles to their sea journey and to risk the more exposed seas off the southern coast of the Peloponnese. Corinth stood, therefore, at a heavily traveled crossroads of the Roman empire. The idea for a canal had emerged as early as the 7th century B.C." (The Biblical World In Pictures).​

Christianity in the Greco-Roman World


God's Divine Providence on display.

I've never looked into Acts 18:10. It's an interesting verse.
Cannot do now.

Standing on the Acropolis in Athens, one could see the Agora'. A small promontory where, very likely, Paul preached because it was a place close to the general market and was used specifically for this purpose: Gatherings, proclamations, speeches, because it was easy to hear the speaker who stood on it and the people gathered around.

 

[GodsGrace101]

naw, it's more like God created the earth, but He 'let' the grass come up from the earth, He didn't create the grass, the earth did... But God is still the Creator.

God is perfect.

Think of the scriptures from Job like surgery... He cuts, but it's to heal.

I agree!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I wouldn't know about the intellectual suicide of others - only that I myself have not committed it.

Predestination does not effect free will. Rather free will often brings to past what God has predestined to take place.

If a choice is predestined and cannot deviate, there no free will. Saying otherwise requires shutting down the mind.

The free will of men to choose is no more negated by their choice being predestined than the laws or geology are negated by an earthquake in the Tribulation being predestined to take place.

All geological matters make no choices ever whatsoever. If you think our choices are like rocks, then you have embraced the idea that we have no free will. Rocks have no free will.

Calvinism is clear that the predestined event (whatever it may be) is established by what has been chosen.

It is no different with salvation that with the death of a drug addict.

His choices concerning drugs brought to past the 30 years he was predestined to live.

Calvinistic confessions are clear about these things.

Just want to point you that your Calvinism says God predestined to live like that. That is evil. Predestining that makes the one who does that evil.

No Calvinist I know of attributes evil to God.

All Calvinists attribute evil to God every time they say God predestined some for hell with no hope. That they refuse to admit it doesn’t change what God clearly hears.

In fact they say quite the opposite - namely that any evil predestined to take place is only attributed to the creature and not to God.

This is intellectual suicide. You say God predestined the drug addict to live 30 years like that and then say it’s because of the mans choices. Which is true for the calvinist because rationally you cannot have God fix a man’s choices without possible deviation and the man also be able to make free choices.