Problem with Election

[dreadnought]

Have you ever been???

I've been through it several times.

 

[needhugs]

If God is all-loving, and
God is omnipotent,
why does evil exist?

So many questions, so little time.

God does good, God does evil... it's written somewhere in the Bible that evil is created for our humility... it's also written that the 'wicked' aren't won by 'favour'... but they come around quick when judgement falls... for some reason, even tho evil seems like a real bad idea to us, to God it's the best way to do things, you can tell, because Jesus suffered the most of all

 

[adhidw]

God had only the book of life ( the chosen names ), God never has the book of death ( names of spirits He intended to create which shall be condemned in hell ).

 

[ladodgers6]

God does good, God does evil... it's written somewhere in the Bible that evil is created for our humility... it's also written that the 'wicked' aren't won by 'favour'... but they come around quick when judgement falls... for some reason, even tho evil seems like a real bad idea to us, to God it's the best way to do things, you can tell, because Jesus suffered the most of all

God does no evil!!!! Be careful newbie.

 

[Jack Meredith]

This interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 - that this refers to faith - I disagree with. This is referring to the gift of grace.

Also, Galatians 2:20 doesn't say "the faith of the Son of God". It says that Paul lives in the faith of the son of GOD loving him and giving his life for him. It is Paul's faith in Christ's justifying act of love.

Grace is by definition a gift and that interpretation would be redundant. The Greek in Gal.2 is "...in faith I live, that of the Son of God..." Both pronouns refer to faith.

 

[Jack Meredith]

Actually, this is the view of the will that a just court system takes. It is the view that all of us have in real life. Maybe in a philosophy class in college one can toy with the idea that the will is something else. But if anyone walks into the class and starts throwing mud at everyone, no one says that the perpetrator is not operating under free will so is not to blame. This is what free will means in real life and everyone knows everyone else has free will as evidenced everytime they BLAME someone else for something they did.

And when we stand before God, we will give an answer as to the deeds done in the body. God considers us having free will and freely done what we did. He will not be looking into the mirror at Himself and tell Himself that He did not purchase that one and they had no free will.

To answer the question as to what we are set free from in your thinking, I need more information. Are you are a Christian or an atheist?

As a practical matter, we must assume freedom and act accordingly. But Paul declares the underlying reality and our personal responsibility in Rom. 9:14-21.
I am Christian, but why do you have only 2 option?
And Jesus was talking to believing Jews in Jn.8:32. What are we set free from?

 

[needhugs]

God does no evil!!!! Be careful newbie.

oh come on... God is sovereign, how do you think evil got here... it's in the Bible... i just don't know where at the moment, something about good and evil and wounding and healing, etc

how do you think God got the Israelites out of Egypt?

how do you think God gave life and death, blessings and cursings?

i doubt that God's 'evil' is the same as ours, but it's still in the Bible...

but God turns all things for good... and as Joseph said 'you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good'

and first thing in Genesis 'behold they have become like US, knowing good AND EVIL'... now how God came to know evil before the creation of man, that's God's own secret

but God couldn't be perfectly GOOD without knowing bad... zillions of philosophers have troubled themselves over the problem of evil in the sight of a benevolent God... but a five year old can understand 'how will you know how good good feels, if you don't know how bad bad feels?'
chill

 

[needhugs]

God does no evil!!!! Be careful newbie.

Isaiah 45:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

 

[needhugs]

God does no evil!!!! Be careful newbie.

are you calling me a newbie on the forum? threatening me with something? I hope you're not off trying to get me kicked out for stating what's in the BIBLE!
i've been a Christian for about 25 years, so not a newbie Christian right?
did i kill the thread?
sorry folks

 

[Butch5]

My last sentence is my point. He did not address that.

Actually, I did address it. That verse is part of the passage where Paul is writing about the Jews. It was the Jews who were chosen. The translation, "before the foundation of the world" isn't a very good translation. Literally, it means the casting down of the system. It's talking about when the curse was placed on the creation.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Gen. 3:17-24 KJV)

However, either way, the passage is about the Jews. It's not about Christians throughout the ages. There is nothing in the passage that would indicate that it is Christians throughout the ages. You see, this is one of the reasons there is so much confusion among Christians. Too many just randomly pull passages of Scripture from the context in which it was written and then apply it, however, they want to. That's simply wrong. There are rules of grammar for a reason. Without them there would be no way to understand what is read or spoken. Context is extremely important. It can't just be cast aside.

 

[ladodgers6]

Isaiah 45:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

So are you saying God does evil, or creates evil?

 

[needhugs]

So are you saying God does evil, or creates evil?

interpret it as you will... i'm not going to argue the point, you can find it in the Bible just like anybody... either God is sovereign or He's not... it's up to you.

He bruises and He heals... How is He going to bruise without actually DOING it?

why didn't you ask if God 'does' darkness instead of just creating it... semantics lol

 

[ladodgers6]

Actually, I did address it. That verse is part of the passage where Paul is writing about the Jews. It was the Jews who were chosen. The translation, "before the foundation of the world" isn't a very good translation. Literally, it means the casting down of the system. It's talking about when the curse was placed on the creation.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Gen. 3:17-24 KJV)

However, either way, the passage is about the Jews. It's not about Christians throughout the ages. There is nothing in the passage that would indicate that it is Christians throughout the ages. You see, this is one of the reasons there is so much confusion among Christians. Too many just randomly pull passages of Scripture from the context in which it was written and then apply it, however, they want to. That's simply wrong. There are rules of grammar for a reason. Without them there would be no way to understand what is read or spoken. Context is extremely important. It can't just be cast aside.

I'm not home right now. I will address this in more detail. Question for you. Do you believe that God has a plan of Redemption?

 

[needhugs]

So are you saying God does evil, or creates evil?

it's good news anyway... it's all part of the plan, all the carnage is to drive you to Him... and there is infinite good stuff waiting for you there... look at the last line in this scripture:

Job 5:17-19 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 “Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects;
Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.
18 For He bruises, but He binds up;
He wounds, but His hands make whole.
19 He shall deliver you in six troubles,
Yes, in seven no evil shall touch you.

oh my dog, you're a calvinist lol conversation OVER lol

 

[ladodgers6]

Actually, I did address it. That verse is part of the passage where Paul is writing about the Jews. It was the Jews who were chosen. The translation, "before the foundation of the world" isn't a very good translation. Literally, it means the casting down of the system. It's talking about when the curse was placed on the creation.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Gen. 3:17-24 KJV)

However, either way, the passage is about the Jews. It's not about Christians throughout the ages. There is nothing in the passage that would indicate that it is Christians throughout the ages. You see, this is one of the reasons there is so much confusion among Christians. Too many just randomly pull passages of Scripture from the context in which it was written and then apply it, however, they want to. That's simply wrong. There are rules of grammar for a reason. Without them there would be no way to understand what is read or spoken. Context is extremely important. It can't just be cast aside.

I beg to differ. Paul is the Apostle of the Gentiles. Paul in the book of Romans told the Jews that they are in the same book as the Gentiles. Under the curse of the Law due to sin. Paul was stripping away their so-called righteous acts; saying none are righteous, no one does good. That there is no separation between Jew & Gentiles. In Ephesians Paul again is addressing our plight before a holy God. By our walking in disobedience and our desires to the flesh. We are DEAD in trespasses & sins. So God elects us to be made ALIVE IN CHRIST.

Here is another passage for you, since you did not understand Ephesians.

It is because of HIM, that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--- that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 1 Cor. 1:30

It is because of WHO, that you are in Christ Jesus?

 

[redleghunter]

That is an utter falsehood.

I can only assume that you totally misunderstand Reformed theology.

A lot of that is going on here lately.

 

[redleghunter]

Here is a question for the group regarding total depravity. If we are incapable of anything but sin before we come to God, why are there nonbelievers who lead moral lives and do lots of good things, who love their families and fellow men, who treat people better than a lot of “Christians” do? Is that a totally depraved soul?

Don't forget to add the noble savage head hunter cannibal to your argument.

 

[redleghunter]

If the Westminster Confession is correct and if Unconditional Election is correct, then what difference does it make to preach the gospel?

1. We don't know

2. Because God chose the Great Commission

We see both come together here:

Acts 18: NASB
9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

God had "many" people in this city of Corinth. A major "crossroads" in that part of the Roman Empire:

The City Of Corinth
Corinth is located in southern Greece about 50 miles from Athens, and about two miles south of the narrow isthmus that forms a land bridge between the main landmass of Greece and the Peloponnesus. The isthmus is less than four miles wide. Corinth controlled the two major harbors and thus command of the trade routes between Asia and Rome. In ancient days small ships were dragged across the isthmus on a paved road; larger ships unloaded their cargo, which was then carried across the isthmus and then reloaded onto other ships.

"One of the most important factors drawing Paul to Corinth was its strategic location on the narrow isthmus connecting central Greece to the southern land mass of the Peloponnese. Even more important than the land travel north and south, however, was the sea travel cast and west through the Saronic Gulf and the Gulf of Corinth, lapping the eastern and western shores of the isthmus respectively. The Roman poet Horace wrote in praise of 'twin-sea'd Corinth.' Ship captains plying the northern Mediterranean sea route between Europe and the Aegean Sea much preferred to bring their vessels through the sheltered waters of these two gulfs rather than to add over 200 miles to their sea journey and to risk the more exposed seas off the southern coast of the Peloponnese. Corinth stood, therefore, at a heavily traveled crossroads of the Roman empire. The idea for a canal had emerged as early as the 7th century B.C." (The Biblical World In Pictures).​

Christianity in the Greco-Roman World


God's Divine Providence on display.

 

[ladodgers6]

Here is a question for the group regarding total depravity. If we are incapable of anything but sin before we come to God, why are there nonbelievers who lead moral lives and do lots of good things, who love their families and fellow men, who treat people better than a lot of “Christians” do? Is that a totally depraved soul?

Great question. Can these good deeds of the unbeliever merit favor with God? What does Paul mean in Romans 3, that none are righteous, no body does good? Everyone has fallen short of the Grace of God!

 

[needhugs]

Here is a question for the group regarding total depravity. If we are incapable of anything but sin before we come to God, why are there nonbelievers who lead moral lives and do lots of good things, who love their families and fellow men, who treat people better than a lot of “Christians” do? Is that a totally depraved soul?

it says something about 'other nations' that were NOT given the law on stone tablets, that they have a conscience, doing as the law required without knowing the law... it was written on their hearts... the law was given to Israel to point out sin, it made them break it coz of.. oh you know how the law works, and why it was called the 'ministry of death'
and once Jesus said 'you, being evil, know how to give good gifts....' so yeah, even evil people know how to do good stuff