Problem with Election

[ladodgers6]

It's free will L, but you don't believe in it.
There are many reasons:
Some can't believe in something they can't see.
Some like to sin and fear they'll have to change.
To some it just sounds like a lot of nonsense.
God is light. Not everyone likes the light.
There are verses in the N.T. for each of the above ideas.

It's difficult to understand when one believes that God causes everything to happen. They believe it's because God did not draw them. But the N.T. tells us that God wishes to draw everyone...every single person, and He DOES draw them, but they do not respond. Jesus spoke about this in the parable of the sower.

We should only accept what is written. It's written that God loves man and that He wishes to save all who accept His condition. Some theology really strays very far from biblical truths.

I do not believe in L=Love? Please if you would, support this accusation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Okay, so do you believe in Prevenient Grace?

What is it?
You mean normal grace?
Resistable grace?
Prevenient just means before. I'm not going to assume we understand it the same way....

I'll tell you how I understand it.
God gives His grace to all men, not just to those whom He chooses.
Romans 1:19-20

Some will respond to this grace and some won't.
There are different reasons.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I do not believe in L=Love? Please if you would, support this accusation.

LOL
No. L = la dodgers6 !!

 

[ladodgers6]

What is it?
You mean normal grace?
Resistable grace?
Prevenient just means before. I'm not going to assume we understand it the same way....

I'll tell you how I understand it.
God gives His grace to all men, not just to those whom He chooses.
Romans 1:19-20

Some will respond to this grace and some won't.
There are different reasons.

I know you will agree that Grace gives us life, yes? Without it we are dead, yes? So please explain, if God gives His Grace to all men, EQUALLY, meaning everyone is made alive to make a decision to accept it and live, or reject it and die! This is Prevenient Grace, that the sinner is put in a neutral position between Life & Death by this Prevenient Grace to choose Life by accepting or Death by rejecting. Would you agree with this?

 

[ladodgers6]

It's free will L, but you don't believe in it.
There are many reasons:
Some can't believe in something they can't see.
Some like to sin and fear they'll have to change.
To some it just sounds like a lot of nonsense.
God is light. Not everyone likes the light.
There are verses in the N.T. for each of the above ideas.

It's difficult to understand when one believes that God causes everything to happen. They believe it's because God did not draw them. But the N.T. tells us that God wishes to draw everyone...every single person, and He DOES draw them, but they do not respond. Jesus spoke about this in the parable of the sower.

We should only accept what is written. It's written that God loves man and that He wishes to save all who accept His condition. Some theology really strays very far from biblical truths.

Lol... okay, if you wrote LA, I would have grasp it, sorry. Now, I believe I said I do believe that sinners have a Free-Will. I wrote a long post about this. We do not deny Free-Will, because sinners sin willingly. Nobody forces them to sin! They sin because they choose too!

 

[GodsGrace101]

I know you will agree that Grace gives us life, yes? Without it we are dead, yes? So please explain, if God gives His Grace to all men, EQUALLY, meaning everyone is made alive to make a decision to accept it and live, or reject it and die! This is Prevenient Grace, that the sinner is put in a neutral position between Life & Death by this Prevenient Grace to choose Life by accepting or Death by rejecting. Would you agree with this?

God's grace is much more than what we're discussing, but I can agree with your last sentence.
Grace is necessary for man to realize God exists and to make a choice for Him...but this grace is given to all.
Man is put in a neutral position to either accept or deny life and death, by life meaning the spirit of God and by death meaning not having the spirit of God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Lol... okay, if you wrote LA, I would have grasp it, sorry. Now, I believe I said I do believe that sinners have a Free-Will. I wrote a long post about this. We do not deny Free-Will, because sinners sin willingly. Nobody forces them to sin! They sin because they choose too!

No problem.

You really confuse me.
You have calvinist listed under your name.
Are you not a 5 point calvinist?
Calvinists do not believe in free will.
They believe in compatible free will which I can hardly explain. IOW, free will as in being able to choose but God tells them what to choose but they feel it is their free will and are happy with their choice.

This is not free will.
Free will is a simple concept...Philosophy and calvin have made it difficult.

Ask anybody what free will is and they'll tell you the ability to choose.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Sometimes when I post the early church fathers, or theologians, I'm told they are not valid because they were not inspired.

I'm not sure what you mean by "valid".

They are as welcome to an opinion as anyone else is.

They may be less accurate than some who followed after them - not having the entire cannon of scripture as the Reformers and we do.

And yet we hear about the Wesminster Confession of Faith.
Who wrote it? Were they inspired as the N.T. writers were?

You can look up for yourself who wrote it.

I know of no one who claims they were inspired.

I say this not for any reason other than to state that the early writings of those who knew an Apostle OR someone who was taught by an Apostle must surely know more than someone who wrote theory in the year 1,500 AD or so.

That isn't logically true.

The Refomers had the entire cannon of scripture to refer to in forming their theology. That may or may not be true for a person who knew or was even taught by an Apostle.

Depravity is biblical. We are all born with a sin nature.
Total Depravity is not biblical.

You were right in the first part and wrong in the last part of your statement.

We are effected by sin in our body, soul, and spirit.

The reason calvin had this theory it is because he believed God predestined everything, including our morality, including our eternal destiny.

Calvin believed what the scriptures teach about us being touched in our body, our soul and our spirit.

So far as I know the doctrine of Predestination is not necessary to believe that sins has touched our body, our soul, and our spirit.

How so?

If God predestined everything, then He had to predestine our salvation

That is correct.

.....and the only way we could come to believe in Him is for Him to use His grace on ONLY the ones He wishes to call and save. .

That is correct. No one can come to the Son unless it has been given to Him by the Father.

But the bible tells me it rains on the righteous and the unrighteous.

It does.

Getting rained on is not being given and drawn to the Son by the Fathers.

God is not a respecter of persons, He loves everyone.

What's to respect?

He does love everyone.

“But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.”
Ireneus (130-202 A.D.)

I agree with Ireneus about that.

“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.” -Tertullian (160-225 A.D.)

Man did have free will originally. The scriptures are clear about that.

The scriptures also teach that the will of fallen man is held captive by Satan to do his will.

What is necessary is a new creation.

Those who came right after the ascension did not believe in total depravity.

Paul obviously did as can be seen in the Book of Romans.

This is my last post to you. I'm shutting down the computer tonight and moving from Seattle to Arizona.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I'm not sure what you mean by "valid".

They are as welcome to an opinion as anyone else is.

They may be less accurate than some who followed after them - not having the entire cannon of scripture as the Reformers and we do.

You can look up for yourself who wrote it.

I know of no one who claims they were inspired.

That isn't logically true.

The Refomers had the entire cannon of scripture to refer to in forming their theology. That may or may not be true for a person who knew or was even taught by an Apostle.

You were right in the first part and wrong in the last part of your statement.

We are effected by sin in our body, soul, and spirit.

Calvin believed what the scriptures teach about us being touched in our body, our soul and our spirit.

So far as I know the doctrine of Predestination is not necessary to believe that sins has touched our body, our soul, and our spirit.

How so?

That is correct.

That is correct. No one can come to the Son unless it has been given to Him by the Father.

It does.

Getting rained on is not being given and drawn to the Son by the Fathers.

What's to respect?

He does love everyone.

I agree with Ireneus about that.

Man did have free will originally. The scriptures are clear about that.

The scriptures also teach that the will of fallen man is held captive by Satan to do his will.

What is necessary is a new creation.

Paul obviously did as can be seen in the Book of Romans.

This is my last post to you. I'm shutting down the computer tonight and moving from Seattle to Arizona.

Wow!
Quite a move.
God bless you and keep you safe.
Hope to hear from you when you're settled.
Blessings.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So do you admit that that new creation he made who will respond favorably to the gospel and actually in truth reject the gospel despite God making him/her to respond favorably to the Gospel? You realize you have a problem here, right? If the person cannot but respond favorably to the Gospel, it really does force them to do so despite you denying it. If you admit that such a creature can reject the gospel despite God making them so, you have abandoned Calvinism.

Calvinism does not say that a new creation cannot refuse the gospel if he wants to. It says that the grace which formed that new creation was irresistible.

It is true that the new creation will respond as he wishes to. (That was predestined to happen and that predestination did not negate the free will of the creation as Calvinism teaches clearly.) Calvinism does not speak to the ability to do otherwise if he had wished to do so.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I suspect you will say the former because I have seen over and over again the intellectual suicide of some Calvinists. They say God predestines one to be saved but at the same time does not force them to do so all the while being sovereign. This is logically incompatible and yet said without a blink. God is not forcing but the man is not free. Those are mutually exclusive.

I wouldn't know about the intellectual suicide of others - only that I myself have not committed it.

Predestination does not effect free will. Rather free will often brings to past what God has predestined to take place.

The free will of men to choose is no more negated by their choice being predestined than the laws or geology are negated by an earthquake in the Tribulation being predestined to take place.

Calvinism is clear that the predestined event (whatever it may be) is established by what has been chosen.

It is no different with salvation that with the death of a drug addict.

His choices concerning drugs brought to past the 30 years he was predestined to live.

Calvinistic confessions are clear about these things.

Can the one in the sentence out right refuse in the end? If not, they are being controlled.

Calvinism does not address that so far as I know.

This is the typical change the subject of the calvinist all the while having no problem with attributing evil to God.

No Calvinist I know of attributes evil to God.

Willing to live with attributing evil to God

No Calvinist I know o attributes evil to God.

In fact they say quite the opposite - namely that any evil predestined to take place is only attributed to the creature and not to God.

The theology that is true is men make real decisions that affect their eternity. God calls and woes and reaches both in answer to our prayers and other reasons. He has made a way and we must answer the call when He moves us. It is not all God but it is not all us either.

Amen.

Exactly as Calvinists teach.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You should be a calvinist. You think like one.

Better than most IMO.

Like Calvin before me - I don't believe in limited atonement and I clearly nuance all of the other 5 points.

I know more than I want to know about calvin's theories.

You misstate their teachings again and again.

You fail to differentiate between what you believe they "amount to" and what they actually are.

 

[ladodgers6]

God's grace is much more than what we're discussing, but I can agree with your last sentence.
Grace is necessary for man to realize God exists and to make a choice for Him...but this grace is given to all.
Man is put in a neutral position to either accept or deny life and death, by life meaning the spirit of God and by death meaning not having the spirit of God.

Thanks for sharing. This prevenient Grace teaching comes from the Arminian perspective. There is nowhere in Scripture that teaches a partial regeneration. We are either Dead or Alive. Ephesians says that God made us alive WHILE we were DEAD! So there is no neutral place between Life and Death!

Hope this helps??

God Bless!

In Christ Our Redemption, Justification, and Sanctification 1 Cor. 1:30

 

[112358]

Calvinism does not say that a new creation cannot refuse the gospel if he wants to. It says that the grace which formed that new creation was irresistible.

It is true that the new creation will respond as he wishes to. (That was predestined to happen and that predestination did not negate the free will of the creation as Calvinism teaches clearly.) Calvinism does not speak to the ability to do otherwise if he had wished to do so.

Respectfully as possible, I do not believe even you know what you are attempting to explain here.

 

[dreadnought]

Lol....that's funny. LA is beautiful where the stars shine!

I'm sorry, my friend, but baseball games should be played in the city of St. Louis, a city I adopted as my own as a seven-year-old.

 

[ladodgers6]

I'm sorry, my friend, but baseball games should be played in the city of St. Louis, a city I adopted as my own as a seven-year-old.

Have you ever been???

 

[ladodgers6]

Respectfully as possible, I do not believe even you know what you are attempting to explain here.

The common mistake people about Calvinism. Is that it teaches that God drags people kicking & screaming against their wills. And this couldn't be further the truth. When the heart & mind are illuminated by the Holy Spirit that is bearing witness to the truth of the Gospel. We hear & see the truth being preached! And we believe, trust, and follow God, willingly due to being set free by Our Redemption, Justification, and Sanctification. That can only be found in Our Lord & Savior Christ Jesus Alone!!!

 

[Rubiks]

Let me write 2 Timothy 1:9 over the top of this.

Except Paul didn't write 2 Timothy. Out of all the New Testament letters ascribed to Paul, 7 are universally considered authentic, 3 are debated and 3 (the pastorals) are universally considered inauthentic.

Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works (sola fide) this is the heart of the protestant reformation.

 

[adhidw]

How does it not change God's nature if HE decides who is saved and who is not?

I thought God is an all good God...How does an all-good God send people to hell through no fault of their own?

It seems the core problem is who actually are mankind living in this earth?.

Are they all equal in the eyes of God ?.

Actually creatures living in this perishable earth surely will be bound by the boundaries of this realm, this realm will never produce spiritual creatures by naturally , because spirits do not fit to live in this realm so there are verses:

Ecc3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again

Ecc12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

So naturally human being is dust in the God’s sight.


When God Chose us before the creation of the world :

Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

What realm was that time ? .

Eternal realm was .

So “ Us “ surely were spirits , How can we arrive here from eternity and become His physically chosen people ? :

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Jer1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations


Rom9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

God put our spirits to abide in to our bodies when we were born.

Us = born of God = physically chosen people = the chosen = spiritually Israelis = vessels of mercy that abode in to vessels unto honnour (Rom9:21).


Rom9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor

Who then “another unto dishonor” (Rom9:21) ?, they are born of flesh people that are equated as animals .

Rom9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

Now it is clear that there are two kinds of human beings living in this earth:

Born of God = the chosen = God put spirit of human when he or she was born e.g. Jacob.

Born of flesh = worldly humans = God didn’t put human spirit when he or she was born e.g. Esau.

It is also clear , what is the reason : God loved Jacob , and Hated Esau , even they not yet born or did anything.

These born of flesh people such Esau one day are possible to be the camps of the devils / vessels of wrath abode into vessel unto dishonnour (Rom9:22 & 21) :

John8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it ( born of flesh as the devil’s camp)



Luk11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first (devil/vessel of wrath abode within the born of flesh)



Mark5:12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand; ) and were choked in the sea ( swine equated as born of flesh people )


Gen3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life ( dust equated as born of flesh ---------> dust shalt thou eat = devil shall abide into the born of flesh people.


Here we can see clearer :

Prvb21:18 The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright

Isa43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

So all of the deads out side the ark in Noah flood were the camps of the devils, born of flesh whish were possessed by the devils like wise in the judgment day (Rev20:7-8).


Without these such born of flesh people :

The devils shall never be able to be judged.

There shall never be evidences for suing the devil in the last day judgment (Rev20:12).

There shall never be devil that transforms to be the angel of light.

There shall never be the antichrist.

We/ the winners shall never judge the devil/angel 1Cor6:3.

This world will never end.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Respectfully as possible, I do not believe even you know what you are attempting to explain here.

I believe that you mean that respectfully.

So I'll try to explain it again - even though I'm quite sure you won't buy into it's theology (which is OK by me.)

Calvinism teaches that a person must be regenerated (become a new spiritual creation where there was nothing but a dead spirit before this particular undeserved grace was extended by God).

Calvinism teaches that the creation of this new spiritual man is completely by grace and that no man could achieve it or, indeed, deserved it on his own (we being, as the scriptures tell us, enemies of God and children of wrath in our natural state).

This regeneration is a work of God which cannot be resisted and, indeed, is done in secret by God.

When you were generated in the natural by your earthly father you had nothing to do with it. Indeed there was no "you" to have anything to do with it until your father acted. The same is true in the spiritual.

We must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God just as we were born the first time to enter the kingdom of this world.

But to begin reaping the benefits of and participating in those kingdoms requires that there be a new creation to be born into them.

There's a reason why the Lord used the analogy of birth.

The charge was made here that Calvinism teaches that the new man cannot do other than believe the gospel (supposedly the meaning of irresistible grace). But -there is a vast difference in being unable to do something and choosing to do something because you want to because it’s your nature.

I see nothing in the teaching of the WCF (the most widely referred to Calvinist document) which states that the new creation is not given a true choice to make and is not able to refuse the gospel if he was so inclined.

The charge being made is that God "forces" an elect person to believe the gospel. A similar parallel charge is that God "forces" a reprobate person to refuse the gospel offer. This is not what Calvinists teach.

The Father does draw a person who He gives to the Son to the Son and that drawing is no doubt powerful and effective. (It's hard to kick against the goads.)

The reason we know that it is effective is because the Lord Himself told us that all those given to Him by the Father will eventually come to Him.

No doubt the natural inclination of the new man is to listen to the new found powerful voice of the Holy Spirit and believe the gospel. But, again, that does not say anything about "forcing" someone to believe.

No doubt YOU have the ability and have been given the freedom to kill your pastor if you wanted to. But you, I hope, don't want to - so you won't. That says nothing about you being forced to not kill your pastor and it obviously says nothing about you being forced to kill him. It's your choice to make.

Calvinism says that the grace of God which created the new willing man is irresistible. But it simply does not address the concept of the new man being able to or not being able to refuse the gospel if he were so inclined.

And - predestination simply says that God, always knowing full well what would ensue if He acted a certain way and what would ensue if He acted another way, chose out of His own free will to act in a certain way and not another. Thereby He insured that what He decreed would happen would indeed happen.

In that framework - we exist and make free choices which bring to past what He knew would come to past if He acted in certain ways.

This in itself does not touch on election being one of those choices made by God. That's another doctrine - even though all doctrines touch up other doctrines of necessity.

Force is word brandished by anti Calvinists to undermine the teachings of Calvinists. But the word is not one that is used by Calvinists themselves.

Red herrings are used by both sides. But it's no more acceptable for non-Calvinists to use red herrings than it is for Calvinists to use them.