Problem with Election

[GodsGrace101]

I have. That correction is in the WCF.

That is correct.

Mine too.

Read the WCF on the subject of predestination and believe it and you will not believe that God is the direct cause all things.

You've misstated the Reformed position again.

You do indeed need to study. But you will not so you are on your own now and without excuse.

I guess God will hold me responsible for believing He is a loving and merciful and just God.

Oh. And I'll be reading the entire Westminster Confession right after dinner so I could correct myself because you won't.

I sure do correct YOU when you state something incorrectly...
But, of course, I'm sure of what I speak.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Thanks for repeating the question. The answer depends upon what one means by the question. Let's see what you are asking.
There is no evil in God.Not sure what you mean by "evil" here but God will not remove evil by tyranny or force. That is because doing so is evil itself. So he is able to remove evil from the universe as men choose to love good and reject evil. It is a mistake to think He is unable. He is unwilling to by a tyrant.I am afraid I disagree. The answer is relatively simply but one needs to know what the question really means. Is it asking why there is moral evil? The answer is because men and angels chose to do evil. If it is asking why suffering occurs, that is a different question. Suffering is not necessarily moral evil.
He was struggling with personal suffering, not moral evil. He ought not to have been surprised that people die. It is not really news to anyone beyond the age of young children. Why it happened to him is a different question.
He did not invent this one. It was communicated to Adam and Eve in the garden and down through the geneartoins of men. So this was not his answer per se. It is the answer the Bible gives. Men were given a choice between good and evil and some choose evil. Augusting did not invent this idea. The idea of sin nature was invented by Augusting, that is true.

I do not doubt your above presentation of the thought of Augusting. Too bad he did not focus on knowing God because he would have understood the mind of God. There are many who have and still do. If he had understood the mind of God, he would not have written as he did.

I think his answer is weak and lacks understanding outside of what he said that was already said in Genesis. But that was not his answer.As I said, if he had understood and known God, he would have had his answers. But if a man does not know God, then a lot of things will remain a mystery.
Calvin attributed a great deal of moral evil to God and had no problem doing so. God did not create evil same as God did not create moral good. One can read in Genesis what God was credited with creating and moral evil and good are not listed. Not on a single day.

So why is there moral evil? Because in order for the world to be morally good, there has to be real choice not to be morally good. The tryanny of goodness is evil. That is why Heaven will be peopled with volunteers. No one will be kidnapped and forced into Heaven.

I agree with everything you've said.
Regarding evil... I mean what is not good. NOT moral evil. That comes from human decisions and desires against God.

I mean why does the wind become a hurricane?
Why is there sickness?
That kind of evil.

It would be nice to discuss with you what you mean about God not creating moral good, but I don't have anymore time for a few days.

Maybe in the future?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Is sin the problem or is unforgiven sin the problem?

Is sin part of the solution to man’s problem (man fulfilling his earthly objective)?

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God forever or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your just accepting God’s charity?

Let me explain:

The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.


So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes, since that force compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

Great post!

 

[MDC]

OK, MDC, time to move on. There are others I would rather talk to. I do not deal with those who do not have the kindness nor honesty to actually cut and paste the verse they claim supports their position. Too many times it just didn't and I thought the poster hoped no one would actually look it up. Not saying you do this but it has been the case in the past of others.

Adieu.

There you go deflecting again from the truth of the text by insulting my character by insinuating I’m not kind and honest

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree with everything you've said.
Regarding evil... I mean what is not good. NOT moral evil. That comes from human decisions and desires against God.

So you mean calamity?

I mean why does the wind become a hurricane?

I assume there are physical laws of air pressure and so on that cause a hurricane to develope. The world has a number of natural laws that proceed without God having to do anything. The wind and rain came up when Jesus was taking a boat ride too. Was obviously not God because Jesus rebuked it.

Why is there sickness?
That kind of evil.

OK, you mean troubles. Well, Jesus said in the world we will have troubles. He did not seem to think we should be wondering why. Not that this is wrong. But sin entered the world and troubles came with it. Food does not grow easily. Difficulties in relationship. A whole host of that kind of "evil" came into the world because man sinned. This is the answer. Why is there evil or what the Bible calls tribulation? Because men chose sin and still do.

It would be nice to discuss with you what you mean about God not creating moral good, but I don't have anymore time for a few days.

Maybe in the future?

Sure. I will answer this and you get back to it when you can. We can look at the list of what God made in Genesis and moral good and evil is not among the acts. He did not create any character qualities. He did not create kindness nor patience nor any of those qualities. He seems to have made matter/energy when he created.

 

[Bobber]

If God is all-good and omnipotent...
Why does evil exist?

IOW, is there some evil in God?
Is He not able to remove evil from the universe?
It IS a problem within Christianity and the one question for which there is no answer.

Good ole' Augustine thought he had the answer in his new Christian days. But, as usual with him, he did change his mind later on in life and decided that, indeed, there was no answer to this problem.

I wouldn't say I'm dogmatic absolutely about what I'll suggest but here's my gut feeling. Why does evil exist? Well...God is LOVE and God is LIGHT. LOVE had to allow freedom because God's nature within him insists such be so. The allowance has to be considered the good thing not that God signs onto as being OK the things that are born out of sin but that it is a good thing that beings be allowed to have free will. There is no LOVE without it.

Now, isn't God able to remove evil from the universe? Yes. And he will but not until the appointed time. (being removed I mean it's cordoned off in a place with parameters one would call Hell) Why the delay then? Why let's say the last 7,000 years (or whatever one thinks it is about time) has God allowed it to continue.

My guess is this....that seeing spiritual death did emerge into the universe lodging into spirits it had to be considered good to allow things to be demonstrated or played out. It's not so much about NOW but for the reason of all the eons forever in the future no spiritual beings could raise their hands in dispute saying, "You didn't even allow an opportunity for the universe to witness what beings independent from being in fellowship with you could do!"

For the forever of forevers this question would remain...so...even though most certainly the effects of sin would grieve God's heart and sadden him greatly in the bigger picture of things it was deemed best to allow a space of time for demonstration. So...consider in the eons of time of infinite future if the question is raised guess what is pointed to? The 7,000 year old period of man think of it like sitting on a shelf in Heaven.

There's the demonstration God will say. God will indicate that he allowed independent beings to see what they could do and without the life of God they bring pain, misery and all things of destruction. I've often thought in that future age you might actually see (and understand how I say this) but that God will apologize...In this sense....not that the allowance was wrong or evil but in the sense that he'd say, "Im sorry that the allowance or space of time took place. The things that grieved you did me as well but in looking at the bigger picture you can see such a space had to be". Now in saying it had to be doesn't mean God had to decree and hope that evil would come about. No a thousand times no. But seeing it did he considered it wise for the demonstration time to be allotted. God promised however he will wipe all the tears from our eyes and there will be the joy of the Lord forever. The old things will pass away and all things will become new.

 

[ladodgers6]

If the Westminster Confession is correct and if Unconditional Election is correct, then what difference does it make to preach the gospel? God will save whom He will save. Is He not sovereign and able to do so?

In your teaching faith does not come by hearing...
It comes by God choosing to save a particular person.
Which goes against everything the bible teaches about God.

The Westminster Confession:
The Westminster Confession of Faith states, "God has predestined and foreordained some men and angels to everlasting life out of His free grace and love without any foresight of faith or works in man or perseverance in either of them, and others are foreordained to everlasting death and the number of either is so certain and definite that it cannot be increased or diminished." (Chap. III, art. 3,4 &5; Chap. X, art. 2)

Yes, I agree. But there are three in operation in our Redemption. God's Election, the Son's fulfillment, and the Holy Spirit uniting us to Christ.

In your theology you believe that God saves EVERYONE! If so, why do people still perish?

 

[Bobber]

In your theology you believe that God saves EVERYONE! If so, why do people still perish?

If you bought or purchased 100 people tickets to be on a train one could say they're saved from having to stay where they are. (spiritual death) If they don't get on the train by believing and confessing Jesus as their Lord they stay where they are. All the time their ticket was purchased and with Jesus it was with his own precious blood.

 

[ladodgers6]

If you bought or purchased 100 people tickets to be on a train one could say they're saved from having to stay where they are. (spiritual death) If they don't get on the train by believing and confessing Jesus as their Lord they stay where they are. All the time their ticket was purchased and with Jesus it was with his own precious blood.

Thanks for sharing. In your theology, why wouldn't they get on? What prevents some from getting on, while others do?

 

[Bobber]

Thanks for sharing. In your theology, why wouldn't they get on? What prevents some from getting on, while others do?

Well seeing I see on your profile it says Calvinist you're probably not going to like my answer but here goes....when the conductor Jesus blew the whistle and has cried out, "ALL ABOARD!" some of the ALL present group willfully chose not to do so. They knew that going into the train there's a lot of light in the cabin something they're not quite a fan of.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Iadodgers6, you asked Bobber, but if you don't mind, I will answer. The answer is the same as Jesus gave for the various soils that mostly received the seed. The cares or pleasures or persecution of this life choke out the Word of God planted in them that would have given them eternal life (2 out of 4.)

Since Bobber said you are a Calvinist, you would want to blame God but Jesus blamed men. He did not say "it was because the Father had not predestined them for Heaven and that is the way it is." If Jesus had been a Calvinist, that is exactly what he would have said. The Calvinist doctrine had not yet been invented.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I wouldn't say I'm dogmatic absolutely about what I'll suggest but here's my gut feeling. Why does evil exist? Well...God is LOVE and God is LIGHT. LOVE had to allow freedom because God's nature within him insists such be so. The allowance has to be considered the good thing not that God signs onto as being OK the things that are born out of sin but that it is a good thing that beings be allowed to have free will. There is no LOVE without it.

Now, isn't God able to remove evil from the universe? Yes. And he will but not until the appointed time. (being removed I mean it's cordoned off in a place with parameters one would call Hell) Why the delay then? Why let's say the last 7,000 years (or whatever one thinks it is about time) has God allowed it to continue.

My guess is this....that seeing spiritual death did emerge into the universe lodging into spirits it had to be considered good to allow things to be demonstrated or played out. It's not so much about NOW but for the reason of all the eons forever in the future no spiritual beings could raise their hands in dispute saying, "You didn't even allow an opportunity for the universe to witness what beings independent from being in fellowship with you could do!"

For the forever of forevers this question would remain...so...even though most certainly the effects of sin would grieve God's heart and sadden him greatly in the bigger picture of things it was deemed best to allow a space of time for demonstration. So...consider in the eons of time of infinite future if the question is raised guess what is pointed to? The 7,000 year old period of man think of it like sitting on a shelf in Heaven.

There's the demonstration God will say. God will indicate that he allowed independent beings to see what they could do and without the life of God they bring pain, misery and all things of destruction. I've often thought in that future age you might actually see (and understand how I say this) but that God will apologize...In this sense....not that the allowance was wrong or evil but in the sense that he'd say, "Im sorry that the allowance or space of time took place. The things that grieved you did me as well but in looking at the bigger picture you can see such a space had to be". Now in saying it had to be doesn't mean God had to decree and hope that evil would come about. No a thousand times no. But seeing it did he considered it wise for the demonstration time to be allotted. God promised however he will wipe all the tears from our eyes and there will be the joy of the Lord forever. The old things will pass away and all things will become new.

This is very interesting.
One thing I know for sure from what you write is that God does grieve for what we have to go through on this earth.
I also think of the ransom theory of atonement....God had to buy us back from the effects of sin and death which overtook man when Adam fell. It's not so much that Jesus died for us, but He did that too, but that he had to get us back from the cluthes of satan.

Even Paul grieved for his fellow brethren, the Jews and was willing to give his life if they could become saved.
Romans 9:3

Which brings up an interesting point...
Paul was more heart grieved for his fellow brethren than God is for humanity according to calvinists!
IOW, Paul loves humans more than God does (according to them).

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes, I agree. But there are three in operation in our Redemption. God's Election, the Son's fulfillment, and the Holy Spirit uniting us to Christ.

In your theology you believe that God saves EVERYONE! If so, why do people still perish?

When did I say that? That's universalism...which also cannot be scripturally correct.

People still perish because they do not accept the CONDITIONS God sets for us if we want to be saved.

The condition is easy, but it must be understood.
I keep posting John 3:16 because it's so simple and so true.

Let's look at it again...
John 3:14-16

Jesus said:
14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,f15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

John said:
16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

To be cured from the snake bite, the person in the wilderness had to look upon the bronze snake that Moses had put high on a pole. They had to believe they would be healed and trust what Moses had done.

God so loved the world that whoever believes in His Son will have eternal life. Not everyone will accept the Son. ONLY those who accept Him and believe in Him will look to Him and trust Him to save them from their sins and be saved.

God decided from the beginning of time that He would give man the opportunity to be saved even after Adam fell.
Genesis 3:15
But we each must individually want that salvation.
Galatians 2:16

In Genesis 4:11 God curses Cain for killing his brother.
When Cain shows fear of someone killing him, Genesis 4:14,
God puts a sign on him so that no one may slay him.
Genesis 4:15

God does everything He can to help us because He loves the humanity He created. Before anything else, God is love.
If a theology is not based on this, it does not represent God.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Here is a question for the group regarding total depravity. If we are incapable of anything but sin before we come to God, why are there nonbelievers who lead moral lives and do lots of good things, who love their families and fellow men, who treat people better than a lot of “Christians” do? Is that a totally depraved soul?

Total depravity does not mean that we are as "depraved" as it is possible to get. It simply means that every part of our nature has been affected by sin in a negative way.

I.e.- even the good we do is to some extent done for wrong motives.

However - it does mean that man is unable to do anything which might count toward his salvation.

"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto." The Westminster Confession of Faith (a Calvinistic confession for want of a better term)

 

[GodsGrace101]

Thanks for sharing. In your theology, why wouldn't they get on? What prevents some from getting on, while others do?

It's free will L, but you don't believe in it.
There are many reasons:
Some can't believe in something they can't see.
Some like to sin and fear they'll have to change.
To some it just sounds like a lot of nonsense.
God is light. Not everyone likes the light.
There are verses in the N.T. for each of the above ideas.

It's difficult to understand when one believes that God causes everything to happen. They believe it's because God did not draw them. But the N.T. tells us that God wishes to draw everyone...every single person, and He DOES draw them, but they do not respond. Jesus spoke about this in the parable of the sower.

We should only accept what is written. It's written that God loves man and that He wishes to save all who accept His condition. Some theology really strays very far from biblical truths.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Total depravity does not mean that we are as "depraved" as it is possible to get. It simply means that every part of our nature has been affected by sin in a negative way.

I.e.- even the good we do is to some extent done for wrong motives.

However - it does mean that man is unable to do anything which might count toward his salvation.

"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto." The Westminster Confession of Faith (a Calvinistic confession for want of a better term)

Sometimes when I post the early church fathers, or theologians, I'm told they are not valid because they were not inspired.

And yet we hear about the Wesminster Confession of Faith.
Who wrote it? Were they inspired as the N.T. writers were?

I say this not for any reason other than to state that the early writings of those who knew an Apostle OR someone who was taught by an Apostle must surely know more than someone who wrote theory in the year 1,500 AD or so.

Depravity is biblical. We are all born with a sin nature.
Total Depravity is not biblical. The reason calvin had this theory it is because he believed God predestined everything, including our morality, including our eternal destiny.

If God predestined everything, then He had to predestine our salvation and the only way we could come to believe in Him is for Him to use His grace on ONLY the ones He wishes to call and save. But the bible tells me it rains on the righteous and the unrighteous. God is not a respecter of persons, He loves everyone.

Here are a couple of comments by ECF. Take it or leave it.
I'd tend to agree with them rather than with Calvin...

“But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.”
Ireneus (130-202 A.D.)

“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.” -Tertullian (160-225 A.D.)

Those who came right after the ascension did not believe in total depravity. There are much more writings than the above.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I guess God will hold me responsible for believing He is a loving and merciful and just God.

You're so off the wall with some of the things you say - I don't know what you mean by "hold me responsible".

But it is good that you believe that. I believe that as well. So did John Calvin.

You do realize though, don' t you, that many so called Christians believe those things and are lost and that Satan likely also believes those things and is lost?

Oh. And I'll be reading the entire Westminster Confession right after dinner so I could correct myself because you won't.

If you do - you will be likely wasting a great deal of time. Only a portion of it deals with the issues you seem bent on debunking.

I sure do correct YOU when you state something incorrectly...

You have corrected me on nothing I have said. You simply keep misstating what Calvinists believe.

I am not a Calvinist by the way.

But, of course, I'm sure of what I speak.

That is because you have not informed yourself concerning what Calvinists actually teach.

You have been told several times now that your problem is that you have not been careful to differentiate between what you think Calvinists teach "amounts to" and what they actually teach.

If you had been doing that - I likely would not have engaged you here.

I'm not particularly bent on converting you to Calvinism so much as causing you to not misstate what they teach.

What you believe about these doctrines is between you and the Lord. It has nothing to do in and of itself with your salvation.

 

[ladodgers6]

Well seeing I see on your profile it says Calvinist you're probably not going to like my answer but here goes....when the conductor Jesus blew the whistle and has cried out, "ALL ABOARD!" some of the ALL present group willfully chose not to do so. They knew that going into the train there's a lot of light in the cabin something they're not quite a fan of.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

No please, I would like very much to hear your beliefs. And don't worry this ugly Calvinist is a tame one...lol. But I still don't see why some do while others do not? In universal ideas to salvation; everyone should have a equal amount of understanding, or choice to enter or not. But where I am not sure in respect for your premise. Is if everyone has full understanding where the train is going; to heaven and live forever, or stay behind and die & suffer. Why wouldn't everybody get on? I am not trying to trick you or trap you. I am asking a honest question, that's all.

 

[ladodgers6]

When did I say that? That's universalism...which also cannot be scripturally correct.

People still perish because they do not accept the CONDITIONS God sets for us if we want to be saved.

Okay, so do you believe in Prevenient Grace?

 

[GodsGrace101]

You're so off the wall with some of the things you say - I don't know what you mean by "hold me responsible".

But it is good that you believe that. I believe that as well. So did John Calvin.

You do realize though, don' t you, that many so called Christians believe those things and are lost and that Satan likely also believes those things and is lost?
If you do - you will be likely wasting a great deal of time. Only a portion of it deals with the issues you seem bent on debunking.

You have corrected me on nothing I have said. You simply keep misstating what Calvinists believe.

I am not a Calvinist by the way.

That is because you have not informed yourself concerning what Calvinists actually teach.

You have been told several times now that your problem is that you have not been careful to differentiate between what you think Calvinists teach "amounts to" and what they actually teach.

If you had been doing that - I likely would not have engaged you here.

I'm not particularly bent on converting you to Calvinism so much as causing you to not misstate what they teach.

What you believe about these doctrines is between you and the Lord. It has nothing to do in and of itself with your salvation.

1. I was being sarcastic. Guess God didn't predestine you to understand sarcasm, and since He didn't, you'll never understand it.

2. Why do you suppose God will hold us responsible if HE predestined us to be how we are? (yes. more sarcasm).

3. You really think I need to know the entire Westminster Confession to know I believe Calvin's theories are unbiblical?
Think again.

4. What does satan believe? Do you know what the word believe meant back in the day when the N.T. was written?
Look it up.

5. Everything about calvinism is wrong...
except one belief:
Sanctification
100% good all the way.

6. You should be a calvinist. You think like one.

7. I know more than I want to know about calvin's theories. The more I learn, the worse it gets.

8. I don't misstate what they teach. Tell me one teaching of theirs that I've misstated.

9. You're not trying to convert me to calvinism?
ROLF. That's just too funny. Did you think you had a chance?

10. Thanks for the thoughfulness...but you don't need to worry about my salvation, just like I don't need to worry about yours. I believe we're both in the grace of God.

I do hope you continue speaking to me, but you don't have to.