Problem with Election

[Bobber]

That is a totally silly question. Sort of like the paradox of omnipotence: "Can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?"

God is God and our belief or disbelief cannot change Him. God is all powerful so that He can lie, but His essential nature is Truth, even as Jesus is "The way, the truth, and the life."

Why is my statement any more silly than the other poster who said if God is not allowed to choose who is lost at no fault to their own he'd no longer be sovereign? Your answer would ring true to this issue as well....God's essential nature of LOVE (and truth) would forbid him from crossing the line into being unjust and unfair. No difference!

 

[GodsGrace101]

The above theologians spoke volumes on the actual Word of God. Some of the best minds of Christendom. All of the above would tell us and have told us to examine the Scriptures for ourselves like good Bereans. Which is Sola Scriptura.

What you are employing is what Catholics accuse Protestants of and what I call "Solo Meo."

There's close to two thousand years of Christian souls who have studied and provided commentary on Holy Scriptures. We do well to examine their works to learn of their triumphs and more importantly their failures as well.

I've seen few quotes from Calvin on these threads. I've seen a few confessions of Faith as well. What's interesting is they all point us to Holy Writ with the advice to search these things for yourself.

We have theologians or teachers in our churches for a reason. The apostles said being a teacher is a gift. Not every one can be one, nor an elder or deacon.

I've seen you say Calvin made up election and predestination. Yet several have shown you this is actual apostolic teachings in the NT and even Jesus taught it. The actual words are used by Paul. Calvin did not make it up. What he and every other theologian have done is use a system to explain the Scriptures. It's called systematic theology.

No RLH
YOU said OSAS and predestination was taught in the early church. This is what you were supposed to supply support for. NOT the biblical writings which we could debate till the cows come home.

Jesus DID NOT believe in predestination.
He came here to save the whole world -- all that wanted to be saved, He did not die just for the elect. If He did, most of the N.T. makes no sense. AND there would have been no real reason for His death since God could have just gone ahead and saved who He wanted to save. Why would Jesus have had to die? Could you explain that please?

He HAD to die for all people so that those that wanted to follow Him could choose to do so and receive the strength from the Holy Spirit necessary to do so. Jesus won ALL of us back from satan and death. He defeated both. And God wants us, of our own free will, to choose whom we will serve.

Joshua 24:15
Joshua chose God. Choosing denotes having a choice of free will.

John 12:32
JESUS SAYS that if He is lifted up from the earth, He will draw ALL men to Himself.

This speaks of Numbers 21:9 when Moses made a pole with a bronze snake on it to heal WHOEVER would gaze upon it.

And as to John 12:32 there is an interesting point which should be made.

Who draws men to Himself?
Does Jesus draw men to Himself?
Does Father draw men to the Son? John 6:44
John 14:6 is another interesting verse.

Also see Hebrews 2:9
By the grace of God, Jesus tasted death for EVERYONE.

 

[SkyWriting]

Acts 15:18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.

Psalm 139 v16 is an amazing confession! In the determined council of God, our individual fates extend all the way back to before the foundation of the earth.
And honestly for the believer what wonderful consolation what loving care of the Father, but for them who believe not what terror!

13
For You formed my inward parts;
You [f]covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for [g]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My [h]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.

That's the first half...God already knows your future life.
The second half is that evidently people have free will.
If not, then why bother to evangelize?

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned

 

[GodsGrace101]

Did God choose Abraham?

I believe I've already replied to this.
Did God choose Mary?
Did God choose Moses?

I've said that God can and does choose certain people for special works. Pharoah, IMHO, would be another one. Some explain that his heart was already hard so God helped him along and made is even worse.

Did Mary choose of her own free will or did Gabriel annouce to her that she'd be the mother of Jesus?
Luke 1:31

I never said God is not sovereign. God will cause His plan to come to fruition.

What I'm saying is that He does not determine every move we make and He does not choose who will and will not be saved.
Robots, puppets, are not what God wants, unless He's playing a mean and grotesque cosmic game with us.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Actually, millions of people do.

I went to a Wesleyan church too.
But we didn't say we were Wesleyan. We said we were Christian.

How are those referred to in Aussie?

 

[JoeP222w]

Faith comes by hearing GOD's words. Take that as you will.

I am asking you for your understanding. Are you refusing to clarify that?

I know that faith originates from God, is sourced from God. It does not originates in the individual human. The Bible teaches that man is dead in his or her sin until God does His work of grace and first regenerates the individual.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.


"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101

Calvinist "election" -- is little more than "arbitrary selection" of the "few" in Matthew 7 over the "many".

but in Romans 2:11 we find "God is NOT partial" -- which is the opposite of Calvinist "election" because in Calvinist "election" there is not supposed to be one scintilla of difference between a lost person that is elect to become saved... and a lost person who is not.

 

[JoeP222w]

Can God lie?

Not sure what you mean by this in reply to my comment.

No God does not lie.

Would he lose his sovereignty if you said no?

No to what?

God sovereignly does choose to not save someone. And no, His soveignty in no way diminishes if He chooses to not save someone.

 

[JoeP222w]

No one can have faith on their own without God enabling it.

God does not simply "enable" faith. It is effective and complete. If God were to "enable" someone's faith, do they still have a chance to remain condemned? If yes, then God fails at what He does. This is not the God of the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

I am asking you for your understanding. Are you refusing to clarify that?

I know that faith originates from God, is sourced from God. It does not originates in the individual human. The Bible teaches that man is dead in his or her sin until God does His work of grace and first regenerates the individual.

"Unto EACH person is given a measure of faith" Rom 12:3... not just "the elect"
"I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32... not "just the elect"
"The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin" John 16... not "just the elect"
"faith comes from hearing and hearing by the world of God.. surely they have never heard have they?" Romans 10... and then the "answer" is that NATURE is speaking to all.

Romans 10:9-10
if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Instead of "born-again THEN you believe" we have "Choose and confess THEN you are born-again/saved"

Choose you this day whom you will serve.

"He came to His own" John 1:11 -- "And His OWN - received Him NOT"

 

[Bobber]

On Cheap Grace (this is a bit long for this thread, but well worth considering).

Some people (a lot of people these days) are into a dangerous theology---what has been called “cheap grace.” They want to acknowledge that God is a loving, merciful God but do not want to accept that He is also a just and holy God who will not abide sin and imperfection forever.

I have written about this elsewhere but let me explain a bit on this thread using some famous quotes.
The love and grace of God in Christ for forgiveness and all the other spiritual blessings must continue to be a primary source of praise to God. However, both grace and love have been misinterpreted. "Instead of being an incentive for living a life of holiness, God's love has become an excuse for indulging every base human desire." (Miguel Grave de Peralta)

An interesting discussion to have but why'd you place it here? What does it have to do with anything about the theme of the thread?

 

[GodsGrace101]

No the OP does not believe that. He stated God chooses according to His purpose.

Who are we to stand in judgment of the Almighty?!

Romans 9: NASB
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

How many times must I answer to Romans 9???

It is speaking about Israel as a nation, chapters 9 to 11 are not about personal salvation.

Romans 11:25-32
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”

27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

How's about posting some proof that OSAS existed before 1,500 AD and that predestination existed before 400 AD ?
That would be nice.

 

[GodsGrace101]

God is Good. He also will punish transgressors. He says so.

Based on your model the Lake of Fire will be empty and all will have eternal life.

Be intellectually honest.
You know very well that is not my "model".

 

[GodsGrace101]

I wish I had more time to devote to this thread, because it is an important topic. For me, the most Biblical view of election is conditional and primarily corporate. To get a handle on what that means and what it does not mean (as there are different versions of corporate election), I highly recommend the following post and the associated links: Corporate Election Quotes

Would you say that Romans 9 to 11 is corporate election?
And our personal election is conditional on our accepting God's conditions?

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

And you can't consider that Jesus stands at the door of everyone's heart and knocks, wanting to come into their lives?

And can't you consider that (for a couple of reasons) many will ignore the knocking?

 

[συνείδησις]

I am asking you for your understanding. Are you refusing to clarify that?

I know that faith originates from God, is sourced from God. It does not originates in the individual human. The Bible teaches that man is dead in his or her sin until God does His work of grace and first regenerates the individual.

I'm not really interested in parsing the details for the sake of indulging monergistic propensity. In short, faith is synergistic: GOD enables, man does.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

An interesting discussion to have but why'd you place it here? What does it have to do with anything about the theme of the thread?

Look at the initial post on this thread and the idea of Election as somehow diminishing God's love. Many of those who have problems with Election (meaning that they do not like the idea that some are NOT among the Elect, chosen by God) have problems with seeing both sides of God (both love and also justice) and thus have minimized the reality of sin and condemnation. Therefore they have come to espouse "cheap grace," the Pelagian heresy (as if we were born good or could earn salvation), and/or even universalism (as if we were all going to be saved anyway so it does not matter much what we do or believe).

The biblical doctrine of Election keeps us balanced theologically... and tends to divide the sheep from the goats.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

God does not simply "enable" faith. It is effective and complete. If God were to "enable" someone's faith, do they still have a chance to remain condemned? If yes, then God fails at what He does. This is not the God of the Bible.

Not all are among the Elect. The reasons why some refuse to believe even though they hear and understand the gospel word... is a mystery. Why God successfully enables some to hear and come to faith but not others is part of that same mystery. God remains sovereign and omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent-- and loving, gracious, and just. We do not need to understand on this side of heaven (Proverbs 3:5-6) why some will not be saved, but we do need to trust God and believe it. None of us can be more loving and just than God.

 

[Bobber]

In order to have problems with Election as somehow diminishing the love of God, one must have one or all of the following misperceptions.

Isn't your lead in a tad bit misleading? Everyone knows the word election or elect is a Biblical term. You're implying it's owned by the Calvinists thus you're on the Bible side. The question shouldn't be do people have a problem with election or rather what type of election....conditional Or unconditional.

They must:

1. Deny (or not understand) the terrible nature of sin.

2. Deny (or not understand) the truth about God’s justice and holiness-- that NO ONE deserves to be saved, that we ALL deserve condemnation and elimination.

Does your assertion of these things make it so? I think not.

 

[112358]

Not all are among the Elect. The reasons why some refuse to believe even though they hear and understand the gospel word... is a mystery. Why God successfully enables some to hear and come to faith but not others is part of that same mystery. God remains sovereign and omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent-- and loving, gracious, and just. We do not need to understand on this side of heaven (Proverbs 3:5-6) why some will not be saved, but we do need to trust God and believe it. None of us can be more loving and just than God.

It is not a mystery. God has enabled everyone. They choose to hear and come to faith or not. Very simple.