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Problem with Election

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My comments are intended for this one issue of the Election only.

As far as I am aware, there isn't any history, if what you mean by history, others which have said the same thing which I have either drawn from or could point to as validation for my comments.....No History.

My beliefs are solely my own as you yourself can attest to, but let me say, just because I stand alone as far as I know, this does not devalue, or nullify my comments as valid.

I base my understanding and belief on Scripture as written, take into account what these verses say, to whom they are said, and what is actually spoken.

1Cor. 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1) Why are these examples to them in particular, for their admonition?
2) Who's admonition?
3) Those upon whom the ends of the world are come.
4) Why does Paul say such a thing to them of that time?
5) How can what Paul said be construed to include Christians of any other time, than them of that time.

Paul speaking in the present, says "Written for OUR admonition" " upon whom the ends of the world are come."

Paul is talking to those people specifically, identifying them with the term (OUR) and signifying WHY.

Rom 11:1-10
1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day.
9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

In these verses Paul speaks of the Remnant spoken of by Elijah, and then updates it to the people of his time, the Jews of the Nation of Israel who rejected their Messiah, the Generation spoken of by Jesus.

Mat. 23:36
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat. 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Luke 11:50,51
50) That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51) From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

So then, my conclusion is the ELECTION spoken of in the New Testament are not all Christians from Jesus until not but the ver select of God of that Generation of that time.

Once it is understood then everything we have been taught changes and becomes clearer, verses that didn't make sense now do.

My personal belief is, Calvin misunderstood and so did they of the "Ecumenical Synod of Dort."

Because of one misunderstanding, the Doctrines of Predestination, and the understanding of who the Elect actually are were lost, and a misunderstanding has been taught from that point on to today.

I am not saying I am smarter than they were.
I am saying I have seen something that they either did not see, understand, or even consider at the time.
When you begin to look at everything you now know and judge what I am saying, see how everything now makes more sense than just the Doctrine of Predestination does.

Thank you for the honest and thoughtful response, I really appreciate it. While we may disagree on that particular point, it is respectful disagreement. To your credit, it would seem to compliment the cessation of the apostolic office. Implications and applications of Scripture can be difficult to sift and sort through, I'll confess. Just out of curiosity, have you read any from Augustine on predestination? Anyway I appreciate your apply, and rejoice where I find agreements. God bless you :)
 
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redleghunter

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Calvinists like to use the term "The mysterious sovereignty of God" to explain why He would seem to send people to hell for no known reason to us, without them having any hope otherwise.
Show me the quote which leads you to this conclusion.

No known reason?

Reasons given by the apostle Paul in Romans 9
 
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redleghunter

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I understand how Calvinist interpret Romans 9, but all the verses they use from this chapter should be understood that God makes the decisions in these verses based on the clear understanding that people first choose themselves to harden themselves against God, to be vessels of dishonor.
Yet in Ephesians 2 we are all dead in our trespasses, children of wrath and only God can make us alive.

God calls. Man does not whistle for Him to come.
 
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redleghunter

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Rhetoric?
Lol yeah with a heavy dose of assertions.

An assertion is where someone states something as fact presenting absolutely no evidence. An argument is a statement where propositions are made and evidence is presented in support of the proposition.

This thread is a giant assertion burger.
 
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redleghunter

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They were given a choice to make, they did not come to the point of decision on their own, they were confronted to chose, it doesn't really describe the Free Will your espousing.

I put on white socks today, does that mean I have Free Will, I'm going to have hot dogs for supper, is that my Free Will being expressed?

NO!!
The choice they had was either agree with God's will or be tossed out of camp. Which would have been death in wilderness.

Not to mention what folks here are peddling as free will is some libertarian ideal.

How much free choice does a man a gunpoint have being told to hand over his wallet. He did not free will his way into that situation. :)
 
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redleghunter

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What truly amazes me is how long this Calvinistic interpretation debate goes on. That both sides can't come to a clear understanding of what the Bible really teaches, and be in complete unity upon it. Calvinists usually don't persuade Armenians to their side, or vice versa, or come to realize that both those groups have their problems and that the real solution is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:21.
I'm glad you are calling for unity. However, what exactly have you refuted on this thread ?

I've seen insults and assertions. I'll wait for substance.
 
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JIMINZ

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The choice they had was either agree with God's will or be tossed out of camp. Which would have been death in wilderness.

Not to mention what folks here are peddling as free will is some libertarian ideal.

How much free choice does a man a gunpoint have being told to hand over his wallet. He did not free will his way into that situation. :)

.
Some would say he chose to take that way home. :doh: Oh. _ _ _ _ !
 
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Neogaia777

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"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101

Oh but it doesn't, that is only man's thinking and assumption (and egotism and arrogance) based on thinking we know more about real true love than God...

God makes some to go to hell, the real question is "why"...? and I'll give you a clue that it has nothing to do with our choice either, (cause we do not really have choice), but we only have choice because, and based upon what we "don't know"...

I did my best to try and explain these issues here with posts in this thread:

The problems I see with a God who predetermines and predestines all (of everything)...

God Bless!
 
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Bobber

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God does not choose arbitrarily, as if taking what by his opinion are the most suitable or deserving, or randomly, from a pool of billions of souls. He chooses according to the reason he had for creating in the first place --according to his plan. Everybody fits his plan, by disobedience or obedience, in everything they do, and in everything that happens with them and to them, and by their end.
Well that'd mean that God loves to see hurt, pain, misery, abuse, strife, sin, cruelty, injustice, broken hearts, all the works of the devil! You can add to the list if you wish. Nonsense! Jesus came down and revealed the way and heart of the Father and it surely wasn't any of those things. It seems to me he said,

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."Matt 11:28
 
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ladodgers6

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I used to be a Weslyian of the Pentecostal variety, for a long long time. And I am like a mule, especially with core beliefs that shape and define me. Arminians of the historical variety seem to be in rare supply these days. Seems many are as theological Frankinstein's, mixtures of this belief and that belief meshed together in disharmony. Don't laugh, but especially in the golden years of my Weslyian days, I just thought of myself as a Biblicist, honest to goodness I did. There was a time when I was flat out opposed to all of this theological talk, but it was mostly out of fear of being unwittingly deceived by slick talking theologians. Well, I learned different, growing pains, many many growing pains, and still growing til my time is up.

Thanks for sharing. My story is, from a very young age to my late teens. My mother took us to the following religions: Mormons, SDA, JW, Pentecostals, Catholicism, Arminianism. There could be more, not sure. Anyway, finally I encountered the Theology of the Reformation. When I first read Luther's commentary on Galatians and heard the Gospel of Christ that Paul preached. I was set free!!!

I praise God for everything He has done for me!

Glory be to God Alone!!!
 
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ladodgers6

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Oh but it doesn't, that is only man's thinking and assumption (and egotism and arrogance) based on thinking we know more about real true love than God...

God makes some to go to hell, the real question is "why"...? and I'll give you a clue that it has nothing to do with our choice either, (cause we do not really have choice), but we only have choice because, and based upon what we "don't know"...

I did my best to try and explain these issues here with posts in this thread:

The problems I see with a God who predetermines and predestines all (of everything)...

God Bless!
Thank you for sharing. I will check it out, thanks.
 
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jamesbond007

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Election means selection. GOD selects the ones who have demonstrable faith.

So God created Adam, but didn't select him? Why didn't he create someone who will have demonstrable faith and we wouldn't be in this mess?
 
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Chinchilla

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Indeed we can choose. However, in Romans 6 the apostle Paul tells us our will is either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to God's righteousness.

Romans 6: NASB

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in furtherlawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




Probaly the worst verses that people who argue against free will have trouble to explain are
James 4
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

You don't have because you do not ask , that means if you would ask you would have .
 
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SkyWriting

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Well (I get rather sick of saying this), there are multiple different versions of the "free will" concept.

Some of them are compatible with foreknowledge and determinism. You can, for example, still have free will in the sense of always choosing the action that you want to take.

And some people seem to elevate "free will" to the status of a god, claiming that the true God is neither all-powerful nor all-knowing. That seems to me pretty much a different religion from the one I follow.

The post on your blog here your multiple versions and provide a link to your permanent explanation.
Thanks for letting me know what you are sick of. I would never have known.

Free will is man having choices.
Predestination is God having every moment already scripted in your life.

The two concepts are impossible to reconcile.
God does it, but man cannot accept that His destiny is planned.

One is, man controls his destiny.
Two is, God has scripted all events.
 
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SkyWriting

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The Lord is great because he saves people from hell, not because he sends people there. Sometimes you have to put the book down and think.

Hell is where those who don't believe in God end up.
Putting non-believers in Heaven would be a mean trick.
They'd go insane.
 
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SkyWriting

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Sure it is. If God knows everything, but doesn't tell, that still leaves man free to work out what God knows a man's freedom will lead the man to do.
And then there is the possibility that at every point of freedom to choose, both alternatives are allowed to procede, as in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. In this scenario, every person has multiple copies of herself or himself that are alternately blessed and condemned.
And then there is the possibility that, really, God saves everybody but some have to take longer than others to be retrained until fit for heaven. That does away with the electing some to hell paradox.
Personally, I trust God to have it worked out one way or the other. I trust God to be just. If man has no free will to choose to sin or not, then spiritual guilt cannot logically exist. In such a scenario, there would be no point in having Christ die for our sins; there's no guilt for which to atone. So that particular view is not an option in my mind.

They are both fully in effect.
God gives you free will to do as you please
and He already knows what you will choose
and your life is predestined.

Both are 100% in effect. With man, not possible.
With God, it is.
 
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grasping the after wind

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How does it not change God's nature if HE decides who is saved and who is not?

I thought God is an all good God...How does an all-good God send people to hell through no fault of their own?

You will have to explain to me how God's nature can change. AFAIK God is who he is. He said so Himself. It seems to me that What you are trying to express when you say things about Him deciding who is saved and sending people to hell is that you do not believe it is in God's nature to do those things because He is a loving God. You seem to be assuming that your judgment on what constitutes being loving is authoritative so that even if it is God that were to vary from that authoritative model then it would be He that was mistaken about what constitutes loving and not yourself. So, you perhaps have never thought it possible for God to in any way differ in his conception of what is loving from your own conception of what that means. If you were to become convinced that He was different than you had previously thought (which is probably very unlikely) your perception of what His nature was would be altered. If that became the case, it would not be God's nature that changed (God remains as He always was) but your perception of God's nature that changed. Either God is as you have perceived Him to be or God is not as you perceived Him to be. God's nature doesn't change. God is unchangeable. Your perception of him , however, is not immutable.
 
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