Problem with Election

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ladodgers6

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I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.


"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101
 
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grasping the after wind

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I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.


"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101

It may change GodsGrace101's perception of what it means to be a loving God but nothing can actually change God's nature.
 
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Job3315

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I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.


"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101
God’s election?
 
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ladodgers6

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ladodgers6

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Election means selection. GOD selects the ones who have demonstrable faith.

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, and redeemed in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect church, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
Canons of Dort (1.7)
 
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MDC

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Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, and redeemed in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect church, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
Canons of Dort (1.7)
Amen couldn’t have explained it any better
 
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Chinchilla

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Verses about election are next to verses of free will it's not like God hide them somewhere deep in different parts of Bible .

Election goes hand by hand by free will and God's foreknowledge does not make you not have free will.
You have free will to choose but the choices you are choosing from are made by God .
Also God formed you in your mother's womb , he could choose to close the womb and you would not be born but he has choosen you because you are special and you will serve him a purpose . That does not mean God is choosing people who he will save . He can choose atheist to be born because two generations later there will be person born who loves God .
God also make circumstances where he uses pagans as tool to serve his purpose but they are still accounted for what they had done and are guilty of it , he just put them in there circumstances ( like prosperity ) so they could rise strong and for example take his people captive to Babylon which God used as punishment for disobedience .
 
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GodsGrace101

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It may change GodsGrace101's perception of what it means to be a loving God but nothing can actually change God's nature.
How does it not change God's nature if HE decides who is saved and who is not?

I thought God is an all good God...How does an all-good God send people to hell through no fault of their own?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Election means selection. GOD selects the ones who have demonstrable faith.
Election means to choose, or to select. That would be correct.
But the O.P. does not believe that God chooses based on demonstrable faith.

He believes God chooses arbitrarily.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Verses about election are next to verses of free will it's not like God hide them somewhere deep in different parts of Bible .

Election goes hand by hand by free will and God's foreknowledge does not make you not have free will.
You have free will to choose but the choices you are choosing from are made by God .
Also God formed you in your mother's womb , he could choose to close the womb and you would not be born but he has choosen you because you are special and you will serve him a purpose . That does not mean God is choosing people who he will save . He can choose atheist to be born because two generations later there will be person born who loves God .
God also make circumstances where he uses pagans as tool to serve his purpose but they are still accounted for what they had done and are guilty of it , he just put them in there circumstances ( like prosperity ) so they could rise strong and for example take his people captive to Babylon which God used as punishment for disobedience .
You said:
God also make circumstances where he uses pagans as tool to serve his purpose but they are still accounted for what they had done and are guilty of it

So, let me understand.
God makes a pagan.
God uses this pagan as a tool to serve God's purpose.
And, even though GOD made this pagan be a tool,
The pagan is still RESPONSIBLE for what GOD made HIM do?

Did I get that right?
 
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TuxAme

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The elect are the saved. They will be saved, because we go through our lives as saved or unsaved depending on our conduct. For example, I may be unsaved right now, but as soon as I confess my sins I can have reasonable assurance that I am saved.

God knows who will ultimately be saved or damned, but just because He has this knowledge doesn't mean that He has caused someone's fate either way. He just knows who will obey and disobey Him.
 
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Chinchilla

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You said:
God also make circumstances where he uses pagans as tool to serve his purpose but they are still accounted for what they had done and are guilty of it

So, let me understand.
God makes a pagan.
God uses this pagan as a tool to serve God's purpose.
And, even though GOD made this pagan be a tool,
The pagan is still RESPONSIBLE for what GOD made HIM do?

Did I get that right?

Yes you got it right I was like whaaaaaat aswell but it's true .
Well God really did not make him do it but he made the circumstances and made him to be accountable for not realising who made these things for them , because they accounted these things to thier pagan Gods so then God punished them .

Having foreknowledge of course .
 
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Greg Merrill

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Verses about election are next to verses of free will it's not like God hide them somewhere deep in different parts of Bible .

Election goes hand by hand by free will and God's foreknowledge does not make you not have free will.
You have free will to choose but the choices you are choosing from are made by God .
Also God formed you in your mother's womb , he could choose to close the womb and you would not be born but he has choosen you because you are special and you will serve him a purpose . That does not mean God is choosing people who he will save . He can choose atheist to be born because two generations later there will be person born who loves God .
God also make circumstances where he uses pagans as tool to serve his purpose but they are still accounted for what they had done and are guilty of it , he just put them in there circumstances ( like prosperity ) so they could rise strong and for example take his people captive to Babylon which God used as punishment for disobedience .

"You have free will to choose but the choices you are choosing from are made by God ." Which should mean you have the choice to accept God or reject God, these being the choices you have been given by God to choose from, not that God makes the choice for you. Therefore irresistible grace should not be recognized as a Biblical doctrine, for grace can be refused by one's choice to reject God if they truly have a choice.
 
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GodsGrace101

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The elect are the saved. They will be saved, because we go through our lives as saved or unsaved depending on our conduct. For example, I may be unsaved right now, but as soon as I confess my sins I can have reasonable assurance that I am saved.

God knows who will ultimately be saved or damned, but just because He has this knowledge doesn't mean that He has caused someone's fate either way. He just knows who will obey and disobey Him.
I agree but you must surely know that the problem would only be with mortal sin and that even IT would be forgiven if you had the intention to go to confession.
 
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GodsGrace101

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"You have free will to choose but the choices you are choosing from are made by God ." Which should mean you have the choice to accept God or reject God, these being the choices you have been given by God to choose from, not that God makes the choice for you. Therefore irresistible grace should not be recognized as a Biblical doctrine, for grace can be refused by one's choice to reject God if they truly have a choice.
LOL
You see the kind of speaking calvinism forces on us!
I understand it and I had to read the above TWICE!
God made it so simple, some make it so difficult!

God loves all His creation.
He does CHOOSE, but based on our accepting His conditions.
 
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GodsGrace101

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"You have free will to choose but the choices you are choosing from are made by God ." Which should mean you have the choice to accept God or reject God, these being the choices you have been given by God to choose from, not that God makes the choice for you. Therefore irresistible grace should not be recognized as a Biblical doctrine, for grace can be refused by one's choice to reject God if they truly have a choice.
I'm back.
I hope you know that calvinists don't believe we do have a choice. They believe God has already determined everything that's going to happen...so, according to them, we THINK we have a choice, but we really don't.

IOW, God is tricking us. He's playing games with our mind.

And there's something even worse He's doing, but I'm not bringing it up...it's too ugly.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, and redeemed in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect church, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
Canons of Dort (1.7)
If God has so much grace, why can't we all go to heaven?
The bible tells us that God loves the world very much.

Also, God was mad at the Israelites because they sinned.
Hebrews 3:17

He was also mad at them because of disobedience.
Hebrews 3:18

They were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Hebrews 3:19

So what kind of a God is this?
HE makes them sin and then gets mad at them.

He makes them disobey and then gets mad at them.

He makes them not believe and then doesn't allow them into the Promised Land!

He sounds like a mixed up god.
 
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συνείδησις

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Yes. Maybe he had a guilty conscience over Serveres. Or whatever his name was. The poor guy got burned to death and Calvin was not unhappy about it...
Some even say he encouraged it, but I wasn't there so I'm not willing to take a stand - it depends who you read.

Calvin told his colleague that if Servetus ever set foot in Geneva he would not let him leave alive. By that alone he was complicit in his murder
 
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Just because the human sees election as a bad thing does not change God's character at all. If God wanted to save every single human being then why not do it? We may never know but this does not tarnish His goodness at all.
 
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