Problem with Election

[JIMINZ]

The Lord is great because he saves people from hell, not because he sends people there. Sometimes you have to put the book down and think.

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Typical, thanks

 

[Cement]

We all know that God chooses people its stated in the Bible. The real question is does God in his foreknowledge choose the people he knows will follow him or does God choose people based on his own will and then change them to make them follow him.

 

[JIMINZ]

It took him a while.

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I love third person Christian comments, there so becoming.

 

[JesusYeshuaisLord]

You said:
God also make circumstances where he uses pagans as tool to serve his purpose but they are still accounted for what they had done and are guilty of it

So, let me understand.
God makes a pagan.
God uses this pagan as a tool to serve God's purpose.
And, even though GOD made this pagan be a tool,
The pagan is still RESPONSIBLE for what GOD made HIM do?

Did I get that right?

I've just started reading the thread, don't know if anyone put that already. Sorry if I'm repeating anything.

In Romans 9:

16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

 

[JIMINZ]

She explained it in two sentences. Hit it right on the nose.

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I asked for "YOUR" understanding of what she meant.

 

[JIMINZ]

We all know that God chooses people its stated in the Bible. The real question is does God in his foreknowledge choose the people he knows will follow him or does God choose people based on his own will and then change them to make them follow him.

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Neither one, God Chose some to be in Christ before the foundations of the earth, they are the Elect, but that does not describe you or me.

Christians of today are not The Elect.

 

[ladodgers6]

If God has so much grace, why can't we all go to heaven?
The bible tells us that God loves the world very much.

Also, God was mad at the Israelites because they sinned.
Hebrews 3:17

He was also mad at them because of disobedience.
Hebrews 3:18

They were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Hebrews 3:19

So what kind of a God is this?
HE makes them sin and then gets mad at them.

He makes them disobey and then gets mad at them.

He makes them not believe and then doesn't allow them into the Promised Land!

He sounds like a mixed up god.

You are asking me, why God wills what He wills? I cannot answer what I do not know. Sorry, I am not trying to avoid any questions. But I will speculate or assume anything. If its not revealed in Scripture. I will not add my words to it.

 

[ladodgers6]

If God has so much grace, why can't we all go to heaven?
The bible tells us that God loves the world very much.

Also, God was mad at the Israelites because they sinned.
Hebrews 3:17

He was also mad at them because of disobedience.
Hebrews 3:18

They were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Hebrews 3:19

So what kind of a God is this?
HE makes them sin and then gets mad at them.

He makes them disobey and then gets mad at them.

He makes them not believe and then doesn't allow them into the Promised Land!

He sounds like a mixed up god.

I have a question for you. In your theology why is not everyone saved?

 

[Invalidusername]

The problem is we cannot understand God and His ways. He is far too great and wiser than all of us. I agree that election sounds harsh but I know that our God is a good God and I assume whatever He does is with good and pure intentions.

 

[ladodgers6]

Are you referring to the idea that the Lord predestines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? If so, it is a nonsensical idea.

Supporting data would be useful. This is just a vague remark. I cannot say the same for those who reject it.

What do you do with all the passages dealing with Election?

 

[ladodgers6]

It's impossible for man to reconcile the two ideas of God knowing everything with our Free Will.

Yea, our puny minds cannot grasp all this wisdom. Mine being the puniest mind of all!

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

It's impossible for man to reconcile the two ideas of God knowing everything with our Free Will.

Sure it is. If God knows everything, but doesn't tell, that still leaves man free to work out what God knows a man's freedom will lead the man to do.
And then there is the possibility that at every point of freedom to choose, both alternatives are allowed to procede, as in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. In this scenario, every person has multiple copies of herself or himself that are alternately blessed and condemned.
And then there is the possibility that, really, God saves everybody but some have to take longer than others to be retrained until fit for heaven. That does away with the electing some to hell paradox.
Personally, I trust God to have it worked out one way or the other. I trust God to be just. If man has no free will to choose to sin or not, then spiritual guilt cannot logically exist. In such a scenario, there would be no point in having Christ die for our sins; there's no guilt for which to atone. So that particular view is not an option in my mind.

 

[Radagast]

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, and redeemed in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect church, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
Canons of Dort (1.7)

As your quote points out, it's in the Bible.

 

[redleghunter]

Election means selection. GOD selects the ones who have demonstrable faith.

The dead demonstrate faith?

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[JIMINZ]

If man has no free will to choose to sin or not, then spiritual guilt cannot logically exist.

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What is it that makes you believe, Spiritual Guilt does exist?

Is it because you believe man has a Free Will to begin with?

If this Spiritual Guilt does in fact exist, when, how does it present itself?

 

[Radagast]

It's impossible for man to reconcile the two ideas of God knowing everything with our Free Will.

Well (I get rather sick of saying this), there are multiple different versions of the "free will" concept.

Some of them are compatible with foreknowledge and determinism. You can, for example, still have free will in the sense of always choosing the action that you want to take.

And some people seem to elevate "free will" to the status of a god, claiming that the true God is neither all-powerful nor all-knowing. That seems to me pretty much a different religion from the one I follow.

 

[ladodgers6]

I think everyone here would agree (hopefully) they had no choice or free will in their conception.

Why is being born of the Spirit any different? Ephesians 1 says we are dead...dead in our sins. Corpses don't respond, nor do the spiritually dead. God is the sole actor is waking the dead. He makes us alive so we can respond to Him in faith. Peter uses the caused us to be born again. In the older versions of the Bible is begat or bring forth.

1 Peter 1: NASB
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,


Peter probably understood this well as Jesus told him the following:

Matthew 16: NASB

15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Even the very words of Peter were given, inspired by God.

Election, predestination, Choosing, these words are all in the Bible and explained in great detail in the Bible.

God is Sovereign and we mankind need to get over ourselves.

For further reading Romans 8 and Ephesians 1.

God Bless!

Yes, this is what I'm talking about! Preach the word my brother! You know what has always baffled me? That people do not understand, for us to be saved. God's has to have a Plan of Redemption; which he does; even before the foundations of the world. Now if God has a Plan to rescue us. How can we even think we can do anything in this Redemption to save ourselves? Because we even could contribute to Salvation, what would we contribute; if we don't have anything to contribute, but sin & resistance!

 

[JIMINZ]

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, and redeemed in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation.

Is everything you have written above, Calvinist Doctrine, or Baptist Doctrine?

I ask this because, there are some assumptions expressed which would logically lead to the conclusion expressed here.

 

[ladodgers6]

As your quote points out, it's in the Bible.

There is so many passages on election, that I am scratching my head, on how they think there is no election.

 

[συνείδησις]

The dead demonstrate faith?

There's no question that they can hear the holy spirit and learn about the father from it. They can believe in GOD and hunger and thirst for righteous. But they can't repent and believe in Christ until GOD illuminates their hearts with the understanding and knowledge of the truth.