Problem with Election

[GodsGrace101]

God alone knows hearts and minds, thoughts and intentions. Read a biography if it means enough to derail a thread and important enough to make accusation without cause. You people think more about the man John Calvin than any Calvinist I've met. All you see is a label "Calvinist" and instantly you think "there's another follower of John Calvin, I'll remind him of Michael Servetus in a demeaning manner offensive to that wretched Calvinist". Meanwhile Christ say's "love one another" but I guess that excludes Calvinists, interesting how that works.

This is because you follow a man's teachings instead of God's.
You never hear anyone say he's a Wesleyan.
Lutheran exists because it's a following of Luther.
We should be following Jesus, not anyone else.

 

[JIMINZ]

The elect are the saved. They will be saved, because we go through our lives as saved or unsaved depending on our conduct. For example, I may be unsaved right now, but as soon as I confess my sins I can have reasonable assurance that I am saved.

God knows who will ultimately be saved or damned, but just because He has this knowledge doesn't mean that He has caused someone's fate either way. He just knows who will obey and disobey Him.

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That sounds pretty good, except there are words used in the New Testament like, (Predestinate, Elect, Chosen) which all denote a Predetermination of Choice by God.


Rom 8:29,30
29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph. 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

It appears as though it's more than just God knowing beforehand.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Why not ask? Romans Chapter 9 gives the most insight on the doctrine of election. Why go beyond what is written? Does the clay say to the Potter, why have you formed me? Does the Potter say to the clay, choose your shape? Does the Potter not have the right, the choice?

I've commented on both ...
It's about Israel.
Read Romans 11:25,,, I think . It explains the three chapters, 9 to 11.
Read the commentary of Romans in any Bible.
It's not about personal salvation.

 

[JIMINZ]

"You have free will to choose but the choices you are choosing from are made by God ." Which should mean you have the choice to accept God or reject God, these being the choices you have been given by God to choose from, not that God makes the choice for you. Therefore irresistible grace should not be recognized as a Biblical doctrine, for grace can be refused by one's choice to reject God if they truly have a choice.

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Is this ability for Free Will choice ever taught, where can I learn more about it, what Scriptures should I look at?

 

[JIMINZ]

I agree but you must surely know that the problem would only be with mortal sin and that even IT would be forgiven if you had the intention to go to confession.

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Is that belief documented the way you have expressed it?

 

[GodsGrace101]

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That sounds pretty good, except there are words used in the New Testament like, (Predestinate, Elect, Chosen) which all denote a Predetermination of Choice by God.


Rom 8:29,30
29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph. 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

It appears as though it's more than just God knowing beforehand.

Do you see the word FOREKNOW?

 

[Greg Merrill]

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Is this ability for Free Will choice ever taught, where can I learn more about it, what Scriptures should I look at?

Deuteronomy 30:19 is good to start with. Joshua 24:15 is also good.

 

[GodsGrace101]

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Is that belief documented the way you have expressed it?

I only write what I'm sure of.

 

[GodsGrace101]

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That sounds pretty good, except there are words used in the New Testament like, (Predestinate, Elect, Chosen) which all denote a Predetermination of Choice by God.


Rom 8:29,30
29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph. 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

It appears as though it's more than just God knowing beforehand.

It is more, but I'm on a phone...

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't know what is going on with my browser, but it hardly will let me post anything, and when I do, it seems to be within the body of what I mean to respond to. This should be right, but I don't know what it will appear to be in response to. (yes, I know, never end a sentence with a preposition).

Anyhow, there seems within this group to be a huge misinformation, that God is like us, but stronger or something. God is NOT like us --we are like God, only not very much. God is not good because it is a good thing to be good --good is what it is, because God is good. God is not nice, not safe, not manipulated. He says, and what he says, is.

I don't know how to make it plain without going way too long, but it seems to me important to refer to the Gospel, which is God's reason for creating. It is to God's glory, not ours, that we do not gain salvation by anything we can do. We are not deserving, we are not capable of responding to what we cannot understand, we have no power of ourselves to overcome our aversion to God's authority, nor do we wish to.

Reformed doctrine, aka Calvinism, goes from there. If you want to reject the Bible as the authority over doctrine, I can see why you don't accept God's predestining all things.

 

[GodsGrace101]

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Is this ability for Free Will choice ever taught, where can I learn more about it, what Scriptures should I look at?

Start with Adam and Eve.
Look up the word Choice in a concordance. Choice implies free will.

Check out Philemon 1:14.
In the NASB it says free will.
In some Bibles it says willing. Same difference.

Check our Revelation 3:20...

 

[Greg Merrill]

It is more, but I'm on a phone...

Look closely at the context and you can see that it is not predetermined to be saved, but that the saved are predetermined that once saved they will definitely get to heaven.

 

[dreadnought]

Romans 9 isn't about election to salvation. It's about the setting aside of certain peoples (e.g. Israel) to accomplish God's purposes.

Makes sense to me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

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Is that belief documented the way you have expressed it?

Yes J, I'd also like to say that it's that way because God is
Loving and merciful and just,,,a person does not go to hell easily. Catholics even believe in purgatory.

And yet Calvinism believes God sends people to hell for no reason at all!

 

[JIMINZ]

God does not choose arbitrarily, as if taking what by his opinion are the most suitable or deserving, or randomly, from a pool of billions of souls. He chooses according to the reason he had for creating in the first place --according to his plan. Everybody fits his plan, by disobedience or obedience, in everything they do, and in everything that happens with them and to them, and by their end.

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This comes to mind, when describing Free Will, Predestination, Choice.

Rom. 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom. 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

When the fact of the matter is, people really don't know what it is they are talking about.

To make it perfectly clear, it isn't Calvinism either, which is a crock.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Look closely at the context and you can see that it is not predetermined to be saved, but that the saved are predetermined that once saved they will definitely get to heaven.

Right. And HOW.
Through Christ...through being blameless...etc.
That is what is predestined,,,the method, not the choosing of individual person's.

 

[Greg Merrill]

Yes J, I'd also like to say that it's that way because God is
Loving and merciful and just,,,a person does not go to hell easily. Catholics even believe in purgatory.

And yet Calvinism believes God sends people to hell for no reason at all!

Calvinists like to use the term "The mysterious sovereignty of God" to explain why He would seem to send people to hell for no known reason to us, without them having any hope otherwise.

 

[Greg Merrill]

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This comes to mind, when describing Free Will, Predestination, Choice.

Rom. 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom. 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

When the fat of the matter is, people really don't know what it is they are talking about.

To make it perfectly clear, it isn't Calvinism either, which is a crock.

I understand how Calvinist interpret Romans 9, but all the verses they use from this chapter should be understood that God makes the decisions in these verses based on the clear understanding that people first choose themselves to harden themselves against God, to be vessels of dishonor.

 

[JIMINZ]

Yes J, I'd also like to say that it's that way because God is
Loving and merciful and just,,,a person does not go to hell easily. Catholics even believe in purgatory.

And yet Calvinism believes God sends people to hell for no reason at all!

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I hear more rhetoric from you but very little of the documentation I asked you about.

 

[JIMINZ]

I understand how Calvinist interpret Romans 9, but all the verses they use from this chapter should be understood that God makes the decisions in these verses based on the clear understanding that people first choose themselves to harden themselves against God, to be vessels of dishonor.

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Sure if you say so, it must be true.