Problem with Election

[Invalidusername]

Verses about election are next to verses of free will it's not like God hide them somewhere deep in different parts of Bible .

Election goes hand by hand by free will and God's foreknowledge does not make you not have free will.
You have free will to choose but the choices you are choosing from are made by God .
Also God formed you in your mother's womb , he could choose to close the womb and you would not be born but he has choosen you because you are special and you will serve him a purpose . That does not mean God is choosing people who he will save . He can choose atheist to be born because two generations later there will be person born who loves God .
God also make circumstances where he uses pagans as tool to serve his purpose but they are still accounted for what they had done and are guilty of it , he just put them in there circumstances ( like prosperity ) so they could rise strong and for example take his people captive to Babylon which God used as punishment for disobedience .

This is a theory I can agree with.

 

[SkyWriting]

I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.


"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101

It's impossible for man to reconcile the two ideas of God knowing everything with our Free Will.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Calvin told his colleague that if Servetus ever set foot in Geneva he would not let him leave alive. By that alone he was complicit in his murder

Do you suppose GOD predestined this?
He actually made Calvin plan the death, and then He got Servetus to go to Geneva so Calvin could carry out his plan?

You see...Calvinism brings to mind some weird ideas about God.
We could post verses till the cows come home (oops, no cows in Geneva). The very concept of calvinism is wrong.

 

[dreadnought]

I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.


"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101

Are you referring to the idea that the Lord predestines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? If so, it is a nonsensical idea.

 

[Mark Quayle]

How does it not change God's nature if HE decides who is saved and who is not?

I thought God is an all good God...How does an all-good God send people to hell through no fault of their own?

 

[Mark Quayle]

How does it not change God's nature if HE decides who is saved and who is not?

I thought God is an all good God...How does an all-good God send people to hell through no fault of their own?

I think you should read the Bible more.

How does it not change God's nature if HE decides who is saved and who is not?

I thought God is an all good God...How does an all-good God send people to hell through no fault of their own?

I think you should read the Bible more.

 

[aiki]

See Molinism (www.reasonablefaith.org) or Traditionalism (www.soteriology101.com).

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think you should read the Bible more. I have to assume you mean "how does it not claim God's nature is not what we thought", since obviously nothing changes God's nature.

How can you think people go to hell through no fault of their own? We all are thoroughly deserving of hell, and fully willing participants in our own sin. But God has had mercy on whom he will have mercy. The only thing unfair about it is that none of us deserve mercy. Fairness is all of us paying eternally for our sin, but that is not why the Creator created.

 

[redleghunter]

I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.


"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101

I think everyone here would agree (hopefully) they had no choice or free will in their conception.

Why is being born of the Spirit any different? Ephesians 1 says we are dead...dead in our sins. Corpses don't respond, nor do the spiritually dead. God is the sole actor is waking the dead. He makes us alive so we can respond to Him in faith. Peter uses the caused us to be born again. In the older versions of the Bible is begat or bring forth.

1 Peter 1: NASB
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,


Peter probably understood this well as Jesus told him the following:

Matthew 16: NASB

15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Even the very words of Peter were given, inspired by God.

Election, predestination, Choosing, these words are all in the Bible and explained in great detail in the Bible.

God is Sovereign and we mankind need to get over ourselves.

For further reading Romans 8 and Ephesians 1.

God Bless!

 

[Rubiks]

Election means selection. GOD selects the ones who have demonstrable faith.

God elected Israel, yet not all of Israel believed.

 

[Rubiks]

Romans 9 isn't about election to salvation. It's about the setting aside of certain peoples (e.g. Israel) to accomplish God's purposes.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Romans 9 isn't about election to salvation. It's about the setting aside of certain peoples (e.g. Israel) to accomplish God's purposes.

 

[Drought of the Heart]

God gave the people King Saul when they no longer wanted Him. They where told what he would be like and they still wanted him so God gave. 1 Samuel 8 and then there are times people electe people and God had no part in it.
Hosea 8:4
They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

We have to know what is of God and what is not , no matter He will use to bring us to 2 Chronicles 7

 

[Mark Quayle]

God does not choose arbitrarily, as if taking what by his opinion are the most suitable or deserving, or randomly, from a pool of billions of souls. He chooses according to the reason he had for creating in the first place --according to his plan. Everybody fits his plan, by disobedience or obedience, in everything they do, and in everything that happens with them and to them, and by their end.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think you should read the Bible more. I have to assume you mean "how does it not claim God's nature is not what we thought", since obviously nothing changes God's nature.

How can you think people go to hell through no fault of their own? We all are thoroughly deserving of hell, and fully willing participants in our own sin. But God has had mercy on whom he will have mercy. The only thing unfair about it is that none of us deserve mercy. Fairness is all of us paying eternally for our sin, but that is not why the Creator created.

How do we all deserve hell if you believe God determines everything?
Is He a just God?
Why did He create us? To have some fun?
He makes Adam eat the fruit and then punishes us for making Adam eat the fruit?

I fear your god makes no sense.
And yet He is omniscient...

 

[GodsGrace101]

God does not choose arbitrarily, as if taking what by his opinion are the most suitable or deserving, or randomly, from a pool of billions of souls. He chooses according to the reason he had for creating in the first place --according to his plan. Everybody fits his plan, by disobedience or obedience, in everything they do, and in everything that happens with them and to them, and by their end.

Precisely why he makes no sense if you were right.

 

[sdowney717]

ALL things are of God, if all things, then, that leaves nothing out that happens or that is, or that will happen or will be.

Recall what Jonah said, salvation is of the Lord, only then did the fish vomit Jonah out on the dry land.
His judgements, meaning His determination, His ways are beyond our understanding, actually incomprehensible seeing all the things that happen, if we were God what would we do!, But only He is God and we created things. Every single thing is upheld by the word of His power. He does things simply because He is God and does whatever pleases Him.

Romans 11:33-36 New King James Version (NKJV)
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Sounds like something a man with a tormented conscience, like Calvin, would come up with.

God alone knows hearts and minds, thoughts and intentions. Read a biography if it means enough to derail a thread and important enough to make accusation without cause. You people think more about the man John Calvin than any Calvinist I've met. All you see is a label "Calvinist" and instantly you think "there's another follower of John Calvin, I'll remind him of Michael Servetus in a demeaning manner offensive to that wretched Calvinist". Meanwhile Christ say's "love one another" but I guess that excludes Calvinists, interesting how that works.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God does not choose arbitrarily, as if taking what by his opinion, or randomly, from a pool of billions of souls,a

If God has so much grace, why can't we all go to heaven?
The bible tells us that God loves the world very much.

Also, God was mad at the Israelites because they sinned.
Hebrews 3:17

He was also mad at them because of disobedience.
Hebrews 3:18

They were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Hebrews 3:19

So what kind of a God is this?
HE makes them sin and then gets mad at them.

He makes them disobey and then gets mad at them.

He makes them not believe and then doesn't allow them into the Promised Land!

He sounds like a mixed up god.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Election means to choose, or to select. That would be correct. But the O.P. does not believe that God chooses based on demonstrable faith.

He believes God chooses arbitrarily.

Why not ask? Romans Chapter 9 gives the most insight on the doctrine of election. Why go beyond what is written? Does the clay say to the Potter, why have you formed me? Does the Potter say to the clay, choose your shape? Does the Potter not have the right, the choice?