Problem with Election

[Radagast]

You people think more about the man John Calvin than any Calvinist I've met. All you see is a label "Calvinist" and instantly you think "there's another follower of John Calvin, I'll remind him of Michael Servetus in a demeaning manner offensive to that wretched Calvinist".

Indeed.

It's worth pointing out that "Calvinism" does not mean the teachings of John Calvin, it means the teachings of the Continental and Scottish Reformed churches, as expressed at the ecumenical Synod of Dort.

I'm not even sure if John Calvin was actually a Calvinist.

 

[ladodgers6]

Is everything you have written above, Calvinist Doctrine, or Baptist Doctrine?

I ask this because, there are some assumptions expressed which would logically lead to the conclusion expressed here.

Yea, no problem. I know this sounds weird. I am a Calvinistic Lutheran, is the best way to describe me. I learned everything about Justification by Faith Alone through Luther using Scripture. Then Calvin taught systematic theology-Order of Salvation. Then Meredith Kline, Vos, Herman Witsius, taught me Covenant Theology.

 

[Radagast]

Calvinists usually don't persuade Armenians to their side, or vice versa

Arminians, please!

Armenians are people from Armenia.

 

[ladodgers6]

There's no question that they can hear the holy spirit and learn about the father from it. They can believe in GOD and hunger and thirst for righteous. But they can't repent and believe in Christ until GOD illuminates their hearts with the understanding and knowledge of the truth.

Can you expound further before I reply?

 

[συνείδησις]

I think everyone here would agree (hopefully) they had no choice or free will in their conception.

Why is being born of the Spirit any different?

Because they are nowhere near the same. Being born in the flesh didn't require faith.

 

[ladodgers6]

The dead demonstrate faith?

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The Dead cannot demonstrate faith!

 

[ladodgers6]

Arminians, please!

Armenians are people from Armenia.

I beg to differ. I use too be an Arminian. Go figure!!!

 

[JIMINZ]

Indeed.

It's worth pointing out that "Calvinism" does not mean the teachings of John Calvin, it means the teachings of the Continental and Scottish Reformed churches, as expressed at the ecumenical Synod of Dort.

I'm not even sure if John Calvin was actually a Calvinist.

Shouldn't it also be understood, when people use the term Calvinist, the majority are not speaking out of the understanding that it comes from "The Synod of Dort" but as they believe it is connected directly with the Teachings of Calvin himself?

 

[συνείδησις]

The Dead cannot demonstrate faith!

Muslims do it all of the time. Many of them have great faith. Having faith in Jesus simply requires a willing and illuminated heart.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If God has so much grace, why can't we all go to heaven?
The bible tells us that God loves the world very much.

Also, God was mad at the Israelites because they sinned.
Hebrews 3:17

He was also mad at them because of disobedience.
Hebrews 3:18

They were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Hebrews 3:19

So what kind of a God is this?
HE makes them sin and then gets mad at them.

He makes them disobey and then gets mad at them.

He makes them not believe and then doesn't allow them into the Promised Land!

He sounds like a mixed up god.

How do we all deserve hell if you believe God determines everything?
Is He a just God?
Why did He create us? To have some fun?
He makes Adam eat the fruit and then punishes us for making Adam eat the fruit?

I fear your god makes no sense.
And yet He is omniscient...

Yea, our puny minds cannot grasp all this wisdom. Mine being the puniest mind of all!

 

[redleghunter]

Verses about election are next to verses of free will it's not like God hide them somewhere deep in different parts of Bible .

Election goes hand by hand by free will and God's foreknowledge does not make you not have free will.
You have free will to choose but the choices you are choosing from are made by God .
Also God formed you in your mother's womb , he could choose to close the womb and you would not be born but he has choosen you because you are special and you will serve him a purpose . That does not mean God is choosing people who he will save . He can choose atheist to be born because two generations later there will be person born who loves God .
God also make circumstances where he uses pagans as tool to serve his purpose but they are still accounted for what they had done and are guilty of it , he just put them in there circumstances ( like prosperity ) so they could rise strong and for example take his people captive to Babylon which God used as punishment for disobedience .

Indeed we can choose. However, in Romans 6 the apostle Paul tells us our will is either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to God's righteousness.

Romans 6: NASB

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in furtherlawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[συνείδησις]

Can you expound further before I reply?

I can expound if you can articulate what you don't understand.

 

[ladodgers6]

Because they are nowhere near the same. Being born in the flesh didn't require faith.

What he is saying, is that we do not have choice in either matter.

 

[redleghunter]

Muslims do it all of the time. Many of them have great faith. Having faith in Jesus simply requires a willing and illuminated heart.

Consider the differing sources.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Calvinists like to use the term "The mysterious sovereignty of God" to explain why He would seem to send people to hell for no known reason to us, without them having any hope otherwise.

Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

And (of course) you assume THE Calvinist position is double predestination, when if memory serves historically it is a minority position. Quite honestly God does not have to send anyone to Hell, it's where everyone is heading by default of the fall and God passing over them is just, because none deserve salvation to begin with, the Creator does not owe salvation to creatures. He has mercy on whom He will. It's on us to "deal with it", not that we can read His mind when it comes to His electing choices.

 

[Radagast]

Shouldn't it also be understood, when people use the term Calvinist, the majority are not speaking out of the understanding that it comes from "The Synod of Dort" but as they believe it is connected directly with the Teachings of Calvin himself?

If you're saying that the people attacking Calvinism don't know much about Calvinism, then yes, I agree.

The "Five Points of Calvinism," for example, come from Dort, not from Calvin.

 

[redleghunter]

How does it not change God's nature if HE decides who is saved and who is not?

I thought God is an all good God...How does an all-good God send people to hell through no fault of their own?

God is Good. He also will punish transgressors. He says so.

Based on your model the Lake of Fire will be empty and all will have eternal life.

 

[Radagast]

I beg to differ. I use too be an Arminian. Go figure!!!

There are Calvinist Armenians. Best not to mix them up with Arminians.

Armenia was, of course, the first ever officially Christian nation.

 

[συνείδησις]

What he is saying, is that we do not have choice in either matter.

Yeah I know. I was wholeheartedly disagreeing with him.

 

[redleghunter]

Election means to choose, or to select. That would be correct.
But the O.P. does not believe that God chooses based on demonstrable faith.

He believes God chooses arbitrarily.

No the OP does not believe that. He stated God chooses according to His purpose.

Who are we to stand in judgment of the Almighty?!

Romans 9: NASB
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.