Problem with Election

[JLB777]

I fully understand faith is not comatose. Someone is responding to something. The question is do we respond in our fallen state to the Gospel .

Yes. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

Are you implying Paul preached a different Gospel?

Paul preached the same Gospel as Jesus.

Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose,
to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles,now send you, 18 to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
“but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
Acts 26:14-19

JLB

 

[JLB777]

We are obedient while we are enemies of God and sons of disobedience?

Because the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

We can confess Jesus as Lord.


JLB

 

[98cwitr]

God does not hand out faith. Does not work that way. How do we know? Because Jesus could not do miracles at a place and at one time blamed the disciples lack of faith for God not being to accomplish something. The men had too little faith. Now if God is responsible for handing out faith, that He handed too little and it was not the fault of the men despite what Jesus said. However, if faith is something we are responsible for, and that is my position for the most part, then it lies in our hands to have faith or not. This is done by how we choose to think. What we spent our mental energy on in guiding our reason. This is what we are told to guard our hearts and minds. There is fruit from what we steer our thining into.

Romans 12:3

 

[98cwitr]

Does she take the child and have a lobotomy performed so that the child can never do anything risky again? This is what you are suggesting God is doing, unbeknowst to the anyone. And this God is supposed to be good.

The mother obviously runs and stops the child. Anyone who believes God, to honor free will above the safety and security of Love, suggests that the mother lets the child run into the street and be killed. 1 cor 13 says that Love always protects and keeps no record of wrongs, and yet you claim that God loves those He chooses not to protect [from Hell] and keeps a record of their wrongs, condemning them to hell. You cannot reconcile free will with Scripture. At best, you simply must pick and choose which verses fit your narrative.

 

[redleghunter]

Because the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

We can confess Jesus as Lord.


JLB

Ok, JLB I think I am tracking your approach when you refer to the Kingdom of God and thus the Gospel. It is the Kingdom in which the King was incarnate, crucified, died, buried, risen and glorified sitting at the Right Hand of Power. All who enter must put on Christ Jesus and follow Him.

The Kingdom without the atonement is no kingdom for those who are spiritually dead.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Answers inline

I don't believe God created Satan.
God is all good and in Him is no evil.
Sorry, no Bible, but it's in there.
If God is all good, He couldn't have created Satan.
If God created Satan, I can stop worshipping Him asap.

I think it's incredible how some could believe this and still worship Him. They must be far superior to myself....

 

[98cwitr]

I don't believe God created Satan.
God is all good and in Him is no evil.
Sorry, no Bible, but it's in there.
If God is all good, He couldn't have created Satan.
If God created Satan, I can stop worshipping Him asap.

I think it's incredible how some could believe this and still worship Him. They must be far superior to myself....

Then how did Satan come to be? How can you reconcile such a belief when Scriptures say:

Colossians 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Ephesians 3:9
and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Revelation 4:11
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

 

[Bobber]

Romans 12:3

That verse that God has given to each one a measure of faith has nothing to do with faith used for an individual to be saved. Read the next verse. It's talking about each member of body of Christ have different ministries and various strength they need to get the job done. If one has a what men might call a big job God is there with the equivalent encouragement and confidence he'll provide to see the person through.

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us..." Romans 12:3-6

 

[JLB777]

Then how did Satan come to be? How can you reconcile such a belief when Scriptures say:

Colossians 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Ephesians 3:9
and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Revelation 4:11
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

God created Lucifer an angel.

Lucifer became Satan, the enemy of God, when he wanted to sit on God’s throne.

Free will.

 

[sdowney717]

That verse that God has given to each one a measure of faith has nothing to do with faith used for an individual to be saved. Read the next verse. It's talking about each member of body of Christ have different ministries and various strength they need to get the job done. If one has a what men might call a big job God is there with the equivalent encouragement and confidence he'll provide to see the person through.

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us..." Romans 12:3-6

Ephesians 2 clearly says not of yourselves. All is the gift of God. Romans 12, faith is given by God as a spiritual gift individually to those who make up his body. You keep on saying the opposite. Your philosophy is not the grace of God that saves us.

 

[sdowney717]

God created Lucifer an angel.

Lucifer became Satan, the enemy of God, when he wanted to sit on God’s throne.

Free will.

Angels are celestial beings not of our human nature. Man is a slave of sin, a slave is un able to make free will choices and neither can any fallen creature angelic or demon.

 

[98cwitr]

God created Lucifer an angel.

Lucifer became Satan, the enemy of God, when he wanted to sit on God’s throne.

Free will.

But you agree God was aware of all that Satan would do prior to His creating Satan, yes?

 

[98cwitr]

That verse that God has given to each one a measure of faith has nothing to do with faith used for an individual to be saved. Read the next verse. It's talking about each member of body of Christ have different ministries and various strength they need to get the job done. If one has a what men might call a big job God is there with the equivalent encouragement and confidence he'll provide to see the person through.

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us..." Romans 12:3-6

Does not discount or disprove that faith comes from God. It is not self-manifested. To add:

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

 

[kangaroodort]

Would you say that Romans 9 to 11 is corporate election?
And our personal election is conditional on our accepting God's conditions?

Election is primarily corporate and secondarily individual. Election is about the choice of a covenant people in Christ, and we enter into that corporate body (the body of Christ) as individuals by faith. DId you look at the link I left on CE?

Here are a few of those quotes which will underscore what I just said,


"Most simply, corporate election refers to the choice of a group, which entails the choice of its individual members by virtue of their membership in the group. Thus, individuals are not elected as individuals directly, but secondarily as members of the elect group. Nevertheless, corporate election necessarily entails a type of individual election because of the inextricable connection between any group and the individuals who belong to it. Individuals are elect as a consequence of their membership in the group. (Clearing UpMisconceptions About Corporate Election, pg. 6)

*************************************************************

God chose the people of Israel in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel (Deut 4:37; 7:6-8). That is, by choosing Jacob/Israel, the corporate/covenant representative, God also chose his descendants as his covenant people. It is a matter of Old Testament covenant theology. The covenant representative on the one hand and the people/nation of Israel on the other hand are the focus of the divine covenantal election, and individuals are elect only as members of the elect people. Moreover, in principle, foreign individuals who were not originally members of the elect people could join the chosen people and become part of the elect, demonstrating again that the locus of election was the covenant community and that individuals found their election through membership in the elect people. (Abasciano, Corporate Election in Romans 9, 353)

**************************************************************

We have already noted that God’s Old Covenant people were chosen in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. More specifically, God chose Abraham and his descendants, but limited his election of Abraham’s descendants to only some of them by his choice of Isaac as the head of the covenant through whom Abraham’s covenant descendants were to be reckoned. He then limited his election of the covenant descendants even further by his choice of Jacob as the head of the covenant. At the same time, and as already pointed out above, people not naturally related to Jacob and so not part of the elect people could join the chosen people, becoming part of the elect. On the other hand, individual members of the elect people could be cut off from the covenant people due to violation of the covenant, rendering them non-elect.

Finally, the Apostle Paul would argue, God limited his election even further to Christ as the head of the New Covenant (Gal. 3–4; see especially 3:16; cf. Rom. 3–4; 8), which is the fulfillment of the Old. Paradoxically, this also widened the election of God’s people because all who are in Christ by faith are chosen by virtue of their identification with Christ the corporate covenantal head, opening covenant membership to Gentiles as Gentiles. Just as God’s Old Covenant people were chosen in Jacob/Israel, the Church was chosen in Christ (as Eph. 1:4 puts it). And as Ephesians 2 makes clear, Gentiles who believe in Christ are in him made to be part of the commonwealth of Israel, fellow citizens with the saints, members of God’s household, and possessors of the covenants of promise (2:11-22; note especially vv. 12, 19). Indeed, any Jews who did not believe in Jesus were cut off from the elect people, and any believing Gentiles who stop believing will likewise be cut off, while anyone who comes to faith, whether Jew or Gentile, will be incorporated into God’s people (Rom. 11:17-24).

In the New Covenant, God’s people are chosen corporately as a consequence of their union with Christ, which is effected by faith. While this is not quite the traditional Arminian position, it fully supports Arminian theology because it is a conditional election. Most directly, such election is conditioned on being in Christ. But then being in Christ is itself conditioned on faith, meaning that the divine election of God’s people and the election of individuals for salvation is ultimately conditional on faith in Christ. (Misconceptions, pp. 7, 8, emphasis his)

It is true that corporate election does not refer to the election of each individual separately from Christ or the group, but this does not in any way nullify the election of each individual member of the group as a result of the group’s election. It is also true that corporate election does not refer to the choice of anyone to join the elect people. The concept of covenantal election or election unto eternal salvation simply does not apply to entrance into the elect people. It actually refers to a people being chosen to belong to God, to receive the benefits of his covenant promises (ideally), and to live according to his covenant commands (Gen. 18:19; Deut. 4:20; 7:6-9; 14:2; Ps. 135:4; Eph. 1:4ff.; 1 Pet. 2:9-10). All of this applies to each individual in the New Covenant as a consequence of membership in the elect people, and more profoundly, of being in Christ by faith, which is what makes someone a part of God’s people. (ibid., pp. 10, 11)

***********************************************************

What is imperative to see in relation to the nature of the election Paul envisions in Rom. 9.10-13 is that the significance of the individual Jacob’s election for Israel was that they were elect by virtue of their identification with him. Their election was ‘in him’, and thus intrinsically consequent upon his. This dispels another of the main objections to taking election as corporate in these verses – that the individuals Jacob and Esau are obviously in view to one degree or another, and therefore so is individual election (of individuals as autonomous entities). This objection fails to apprehend the relationship between the election of the corporate representative and his people. The corporate representative’s election is unique, entailing the election of all who are identified with him. Its significance was never that each individual member of the elect people was chosen as an individual to become part of the elect people in the same manner as the corporate head was chosen. Rather, the individual possesses elect status as a consequence of membership in the elect people/identification with the corporate representative. In the case of the divine covenantal election, God chooses his people by his choice of the covenant head. ((Abasciano, Paul’s Use of the Old Testament in Romans 9:10-18, An Intertextual and Theological Exegesis, pp. 59-61)


Paul’s doctrine of election is Christocentric. He believed Christ to be the seed of Abraham, the true Israel and embodiment of the covenant people of God, who was the heir to the Abrahamic covenant promises (Gal. 3.16) and the mediator and head of the new Covenant (1 Cor. 11.25; 2 Cor. 3.6), which is essentially the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. By believing in Christ, Christians come to be ‘in Christ’ and therefore share in his identity as the covenant representative. Consequently, they are also the seed of Abraham and sons of God – that is, the elect people of God – through faith in Christ.

Thus, Christ fulfils the election of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob/Israel and every promise of God is fulfilled in him (2 Cor. 1.19). God’s sovereign freedom over the election of the covenant head guarantees his sovereign freedom over the election of the covenant people. Just as individual Israelites were elected as a consequence of their identification with Jacob, individual Christians are elected as a consequence of their identification with Christ through faith. As Eph. 1.4 puts it, God chose the Church in Christ. The ‘in Christ’ phrase indicates covenant identification and solidarity with Christ as the corporate head/representative, and therefore implies covenant membership as well. As a result of faith-union with Christ, Christians share in Christ’s election. (ibid. 61, 62)

 

[kangaroodort]

Then you appear to be saying that those who have come to faith on their own accord, by their own choice, have in essence saved themselves. God has not saved them. They can boast in themselves and in their higher wisdom, and they can look down on those who did not so choose.

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

In fact, no one can even boast of their faith, because all faith comes from God, not ourselves. I can even show from the scriptures that conviction of sin and repentance is a gift from God. What is our own is confession. But no one confesses until they repent. So no one has any room to boast or to feel somehow superior.

This is such a lame argument. Salvation by faith excludes boasting because of the nature of faith, that it is trust in another to do for us what we cannot possibly do for ourselves. If we could save ourselves, then we would not need to trust in Christ to save us, now would we? The fact that we need to trust in Christ to save us is proof that we are powerless to save ourselves, and for that reason the principle of faith excludes boasting (Rom. 4). That is why faith is the perfect condition for salvation which gives God all the glory in salvation. It has nothing to do with grace being irresistible.

As Ephesians 2:8-9 states, salvation is a gift that is received "through faith". That is why we cannot boast in it, it is a free gift received (not earned) by faith (simple trust in Christ to save us). If I receive a free gift from someone with full power to reject it instead, does that mean I earned the gift? Of course not. Does it mean I bought the gift? Of course not. Does it mean I gave the gift to myself? Of course not. I can take no credit for the gift at all just because I freely received it from the one who offered it to me. To do so would be plainly absurd, and it is exactly this absurdity that forms the basis of your argument.

As far as faith and repentance being a gift from God, that is only true in the sense of divine enabling, which all Arminians agree with. This is true for the Calvinist as well, otherwise the Calvinist must say that God believes for them. But Calvinists do not think that faith as a gift means God does the believing for us (and rightly so), so they must see faith as a gift as divine enabling, just like Arminians.

So to receive the gift of faith is to simply believe as God enables us. The difference between the Calvinist view and the Arminian view is simply the nature of that enabling. The Calvinist says that enabling irresistibly causes faith, while the Arminian says it makes faith possible, but does not irresistibly cause it. So the idea that faith is a gift from God is no threat to the Arminian view at all.

 

[sdowney717]

This is such a lame argument. Salvation by faith excludes boasting because of the nature of faith, that it is trust in another to do for us what we cannot possibly do for ourselves. If we could save ourselves, then we would not need to trust in Christ to save us, now would we? The fact that we need to trust in Christ to save us is proof that we are powerless to save ourselves, and for that reason the principle of faith excludes boasting (Rom. 4). That is why faith is the perfect condition for salvation which gives God all the glory in salvation. It has nothing to do with grace being irresistible.

As Ephesians 2:8-9 states, salvation is a gift that is received "through faith". That is why we cannot boast in it, it is a free gift received (not earned) by faith (simple trust in Christ to save us). If I receive a free gift from someone with full power to reject it instead, does that mean I earned the gift? Of course not. Does it mean I bought the gift? Of course not. Does it mean I gave the gift to myself? Of course not. I can take no credit for the gift at all just because I freely received it from the one who offered it to me. To do so would be plainly absurd, and it is exactly this absurdity that forms the basis of your argument.

As far as faith and repentance being a gift from God, that is only true in the sense of divine enabling, which all Arminians agree with. This is true for the Calvinist as well, otherwise the Calvinist must say that God believes for them. But Calvinists do not think that faith as a gift means God does the believing for us (and rightly so), so they must see faith as a gift as divine enabling, just like Arminians.

So to receive the gift of faith is to simply believe as God enables us. The difference between the Calvinist view and the Arminian view is simply the nature of that enabling. The Calvinist says that enabling irresistibly causes faith, while the Arminian says it makes faith possible, but does not irresistibly cause it. So the idea that faith is a gift from God is no threat to the Arminian view at all.

Election by God is an individual. calling. For both jew and gentile.

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9 points out that not all Israel was of the TRUE Israel.
Only those born according to the Spirit of God are the True Israel, born according to His promise as Paul shows about Issac. And Paul in Galatians makes the point we who believe are as Issac was, a child of promise.

 

[Bobber]

Ephesians 2 clearly says not of yourselves. All is the gift of God. Romans 12, faith is given by God as a spiritual gift individually to those who make up his body. You keep on saying the opposite. Your philosophy is not the grace of God that saves us.

I've read much evidence to suggest it's salvation that's being talked about in Ephesians 2 as the subject of the verse. Not the faith. Salvation is not of ourselves or anything we did to bring it about except believe. But even if it was insisted that it's talking about faith. Still doesn't mean God hasn't provided it to all if they choose to believe the gospel. I could quote you faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and the gospel is to be preached to every creature. I do favor the first explanation though that salvation was the subject under discussion for the gift of God has always been defined as Salvation and eternal life. Romans 6:23

 

[JLB777]

Angels are celestial beings not of our human nature. Man is a slave of sin, a slave is un able to make free will choices and neither can any fallen creature angelic or demon.

I responded to the claim that God created Satan.

That is false.

God created Lucifer.

Lucifer became the Enemy of through his iniquity.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

But you agree God was aware of all that Satan would do prior to His creating Satan, yes?

Lucifer always had a choice.



JLB