Problem with Election

[JLB777]

Or we could just use the Biblical term of Justification by faith.

That would be obedience, which is how we are born again and justified by faith.

That would be the beginning of our faith.


I’m referring to the end of our faith.


JLB

 

[redleghunter]

James demonstrates from Abraham’s life, in verse 21, the principle of faith, which is obedience.

Probably another subject unless you truly believe that we are obedient in the eyes of God before responding to the Gospel. That would a problem as Abraham believed God first right? He had the Promise, believed it and starting walking towards the promised land. What did Abraham merit with God before God called him?

 

[redleghunter]

No they didn’t.

They assumed that being Abraham’s offspring they were destined for salvation.

Not in Acts. What would give them that idea as Peter preached the same Gospel of Christ Crucified and Risen as we see in Luke 24 and 1 Corinthians 15?

 

[redleghunter]

I think and I should discuss the difference in initial salvation by faith and receiving the salvation of our soul as the end result of our faith.

Perhaps a different discussion. This is an election thread and has turned to the most important part of the discussion which is how we respond to the Gospel and are born again. I know you probably want to write a dissertation on walking obediently after conversion, would love to see that, but that is not the subject of this thread.

 

[redleghunter]

The Gospel is Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

This is God’s loving invitation to be transferred into the kingdom of His dear Son. The kingdom of God.

It is also a command that must be obeyed, in which God’s Spirit is available during the preaching of those sent to announce the Gospel, to empower the lost unto salvation.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is Perfection. The means of entry is perfection. Jesus was/is that Perfection needed. The Gospel given the apostles is the following:

Luke 24: NASB
44Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48“You are witnesses of these things. 49“And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”


And confirmed here:

1 Corinthians 15: NASB
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

 

[redleghunter]

That would be obedience, which is how we are born again and justified by faith.

So your view is we are obedient first and then we are born again?

 

[sdowney717]

So your view is we are obedient first and then we are born again?

That goes against by grace you are saved. Ephesians 1 and 2 clearly elucidate why God elected us to be in Christ. It is too bad some add on to Christ's gospel.

 

[sdowney717]

The Gospel of the Kingdom is Perfection. The means of entry is perfection. Jesus was/is that Perfection needed. The Gospel given the apostles is the following:

Luke 24: NASB
44Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48“You are witnesses of these things. 49“And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”


And confirmed here:

1 Corinthians 15: NASB
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Jesus says you must be perfect as your FATHER in heaven is perfect. Only way forward is to made new by God. There is no sin for those who abide in Christ. This speaking of the born again spirit of man.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

So your view is we are obedient first and then we are born again?

In God, there is not past present or future; that is from our human point of view. So we are born again and we are obedient and it is all in God's eternal NOW. We humans seeing things from our temporal point of view might debate the order of events, but actually there is no spiritual point to such a debate.

 

[redleghunter]

In God, there is not past present or future; that is from our human point of view. So we are born again and we are obedient and it is all in God's eternal NOW. We humans seeing things from our temporal point of view might debate the order of events, but actually there is no spiritual point to such a debate.

Whoa deep. But I think String theory and redemption would be a good separate thread.

 

[JLB777]

Probably another subject unless you truly believe that we are obedient in the eyes of God before responding to the Gospel.

When we respond in obedience to the Gospel, then we are justified.


Another example of Abraham’s life.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:8

The phrase, “In you all the nations shall be blessed”, is a reference to Genesis 12.


Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...

This is the example [the type] of the Gospel, when God justifies the Gentiles by faith.

• The command -

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.

• The promise that is conditional upon obeying the command -

I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”


Abraham's obedience of faith -

So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...

• When Abraham departed, he was justified by faith; the obedience of faith.

This example is a type or shadow, demonstrating how we turn from our old life and follow the Lord in obedience to His Voice, by which we received our faith.


Which is why Paul, speaking by the Spirit calls it the obedience of faith.



But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



JLB

 

[JLB777]

The Gospel of the Kingdom is Perfection. The means of entry is perfection. Jesus was/is that Perfection needed. The Gospel given the apostles is the following:

Luke 24: NASB
44Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48“You are witnesses of these things. 49“And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”


And confirmed here:

1 Corinthians 15: NASB
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

That's not the Gospel of the Kingdom.

That's what Paul taught, delivered to them.


If it was the Gospel of the Kingdom, then you would need to continue to underline all the way through verse 8.


Here is the Gospel, Jesus taught Paul.


14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:14-20


Key Verses:

• to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins

• but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

The Gospel of the kingdom of God is: Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.


This is the call of God to turn from Satan to God, by confessing Jesus as Lord.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

So your view is we are obedient first and then we are born again?

yes

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Whoa deep. But I think String theory and redemption would be a good separate thread.

However familiar we might be with redemption doctrines such a thread should wait until string theory comes along in a settled form.

 

[redleghunter]

When we respond in obedience to the Gospel, then we are justified.


Another example of Abraham’s life.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:8

The phrase, “In you all the nations shall be blessed”, is a reference to Genesis 12.


Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...

This is the example [the type] of the Gospel, when God justifies the Gentiles by faith.

• The command -

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.

• The promise that is conditional upon obeying the command -

I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”


Abraham's obedience of faith -

So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...

• When Abraham departed, he was justified by faith; the obedience of faith.

This example is a type or shadow, demonstrating how we turn from our old life and follow the Lord in obedience to His Voice, by which we received our faith.


Which is why Paul, speaking by the Spirit calls it the obedience of faith.



But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



JLB

I fully understand faith is not comatose. Someone is responding to something. The question is do we respond in our fallen state to the Gospel .

 

[redleghunter]

That's not the Gospel of the Kingdom.

That's what Paul taught, delivered to them.


If it was the Gospel of the Kingdom, then you would need to continue to underline all the way through verse 8.


Here is the Gospel, Jesus taught Paul.


14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:14-20


Key Verses:

• to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins

• but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

The Gospel of the kingdom of God is: Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.


This is the call of God to turn from Satan to God, by confessing Jesus as Lord.



JLB

Are you implying Paul preached a different Gospel?

 

[redleghunter]

yes

We are obedient while we are enemies of God and sons of disobedience?

 

[98cwitr]

But you have not said anything regarding what you think those isolated words say. And if you do not see that if one says God controlls the acts of every single man from the beginning to the end make hims a dictator, then that is really sad. It means you have shut down your mind. One sees this not seldom. One makes statments about God that make his character to be quite evil and insist God is good. Similar to God is micromanagine every act but is not a tryant. This is embracing nonsense for the sake of one's chosen position. The price for knowing the truth is being willing to give up one's favoured positions that almsot always feed something of the flesh.

You see, the sovereignity of God, the way God sees it, is more complex than the childish "God controls everything." That is easy so a number take that childish view and say that is it.

A mother, father, and their children were having a picnic in a small field next to a busy road. Two of their children were playing with a ball, and one accidentally kicked it into the road. The other child ran towards the street to retrieve the ball. The mother immediately sees what is happening and yells "STOP! DON'T GO INTO THE ROAD!" The child, rather distracted by the ball, does not really hear the words of his mother and continues running towards the street. Does a loving mother run after the child and stop them from getting run over by a car?

 

[98cwitr]

Ok.

Do you also understand the principle of faith?

How faith is activated, or “made alive” able to function, like a body with a spirit?

No, I find nothing pertaining to what you're suggesting in Scripture. Either we have faith or we don't. If we have faith, it can be measured (or thus quantified).

Just because faith comes to you and you have faith from God as a gift, doesn’t mean you will be saved my friend.

Yes, in fact it does. God doesn't hand out faith for it to squandered and never retrieved (Hebrews 10).

You must obey the Gospel to be saved.

100% agree. Real faith abides in obedience.

Faith without the action or work of obedience is dead.

Amen. Hebrews 11 says this very thing! "By faith someone does something!"

 

[BobRyan]

We do see that man is spiritually dead UNTIL God makes him alive.

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-2.htm

http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-2.htm

We see that "while dead" the person is fully capable of doing lots of 'trespasses and sins" and we see that God supernaturally "draws" that dead person -- which even by Calvinist standards the "drawing of God" enables all the "choice" that depravity disabled when it comes to accepting the Gospel