• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

Problem of evil?

grasping the after wind

That's grasping after the wind
Jan 18, 2010
19,458
6,355
Clarence Center NY USA
✟252,647.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Let us assume that morality is subjective and if we believe in an almighty and everlasting God is it so hard to fathom that He decides in a completely arbitrary fashion what is good and what is bad? If that might be the case, all of our human philosophies are irrelevant and the hubris which they display is laughable at best.
 
  • Like
Reactions: drich0150
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"
-Epicurus

How can we answer this?

We answer this like we do with any other question.

first we define the parameters of the question. Meaning we take into account the circumstances of the who or when the question was asked, and then we look at what is asked.

Second we help the one asking the question to redefine any misconceptions they may have in the questions asked, leading to a false assumption, then we address the question according to the bible.

Finally we draw together all of the points i have outlined so they can come to a biblically based conclusion.

For example we know that this Greek philosopher lived about 2300 years ago and was not privy the revelation of Christ and the teachings of the NT. at best He was living in a truly dark age which saw no light of salvation. If someone is using his words in the context He wrote them, then a simple explanation of the Gospel should answer each and every question Epicurus had.

But I know the general popularity this set of questions has found in recent days is not because of the original intent this philosopher had when He wrote this query. Our modern want-to-be's have taken this question and married it with a pop culture understanding of the words, sin, evil and a loose understanding omni aspects of God.

So what we must do now is re-educate and give a biblical account of these words and how they relate to the popular culture's understanding of these questions. We do this by deconstructing the question line by line.
(I took the liberty of looking up the actual quote)

We start with the basics by giving a biblical definition of Sin, Evil and Freewill.

Sin, is anything not in the expressed will of God.

Evil is a malicious intent to be outside the expressed will of God.

Not all sin is Evil, but all Evil is sin.

Free Will Is the ability to be outside of the Expressed Will of God on your own accord. In other words The "gift" of free will is the ability to Sin.

We have been given this ability so we may choose where we wish to spend eternity, but as with any real choice comes a price and consequence.

*Side note; Apparently Epicurus did not have a complete understanding of God's word or His plan as outlined here. nor would anyone of that time period, but to those who would twist this effort to suit their own agenda there will be little excuse.

On to the actual quote:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Evil is the ultimate expression of sin. It is the proof that we indeed have a will outside of God's expressed will. In other words Evil is the proof or ultimate result of free will.


Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
If we were not given the choices this life affords (including the option to be evil) then we would have simply been created to either spend an eternity with God or to Spend an eternity in Hell. This is the picture of true malevolence. (The souls being created to exist in Hell with no say in the matter) As it is we have been given a choice to be evil or not. No one is forcing us to be evil. It is a choice made in a man's heart apart from the expressed Will of God. Because we have been given a true choice we have to all live with the consequences.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Again, Evil is the proof of Free will. Free Will and the consequences of those choices are the point and purpose of this life. We are to choose where we wish to spend eternity. Without "Sin and Evil" there is not point of been given this existence.


Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Because the Title "God" has absolutely nothing to do with how Epicurus nor the person using this quote defines it.
 
Upvote 0

Ken-1122

Newbie
Jan 30, 2011
13,574
1,792
✟240,710.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Drich0150 defines evil (quote) “Evil is a malicious intent to be outside the expressed will of God.”


(reply)The problem with your definition of evil (weather it is yours, your bible’s or your God’s definition) is it includes some of the most wonderful people in history and on earth who just so happened to be exposed to the wrong God at birth, so they dismiss yours and worship what you would probably consider a non-existent God. When the OP asked the questions, I don’t think he was asking why didn’t God stop Mahatma Gandhi, the Dali Lama or others that you would consider evil simply because they aren’t Christian; from doing some of the wonderful things they did, because even though you might consider them evil, most unbiased people don’t.
Because you built your response around this controversial definition of evil, I doubt you really answered his question.

Ken
 
Upvote 0

thesunisout

growing in grace
Site Supporter
Mar 24, 2011
4,761
1,399
He lifts me up
✟205,051.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Just because someone did what you might consider to be wonderful things doesn't mean they were a good person. You don't know who any of them were as individuals, you only know what their public face was, or in the case of Buddha, writings that came hundreds of years after his death.

Gods standard of morality is a little higher than ours, and what people consider good apart from God is completely arbitrary and different for each person. There simply is no standard for morality outside of God.

The Bible says "There is none righteous, no, not one." Romans 3:10 And "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6

People might outwardly good to others, but only God knows our hearts. As as your objection to where and when someone grew up, God can reach anyone at any time. His judgement is just. Anyone who goes to hell is someone who specifically rejected God. No one in hell is going to be saying "you've got the wrong guy!". Everyone who is there will know they deserve to be there.

Read more: Answers.com - Do good people go to hell

Drich0150 defines evil (quote) “Evil is a malicious intent to be outside the expressed will of God.”


(reply)The problem with your definition of evil (weather it is yours, your bible’s or your God’s definition) is it includes some of the most wonderful people in history and on earth who just so happened to be exposed to the wrong God at birth, so they dismiss yours and worship what you would probably consider a non-existent God. When the OP asked the questions, I don’t think he was asking why didn’t God stop Mahatma Gandhi, the Dali Lama or others that you would consider evil simply because they aren’t Christian; from doing some of the wonderful things they did, because even though you might consider them evil, most unbiased people don’t.
Because you built your response around this controversial definition of evil, I doubt you really answered his question.

Ken
 
Upvote 0

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Just because someone did what you might consider to be wonderful things doesn't mean they were a good person. You don't know who any of them were as individuals, you only know what their public face was, or in the case of Buddha, writings that came hundreds of years after his death.

Gods standard of morality is a little higher than ours, and what people consider good apart from God is completely arbitrary and different for each person. There simply is no standard for morality outside of God.

The Bible says "There is none righteous, no, not one." Romans 3:10 And "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6

People might outwardly good to others, but only God knows our hearts. As as your objection to where and when someone grew up, God can reach anyone at any time. His judgement is just. Anyone who goes to hell is someone who specifically rejected God. No one in hell is going to be saying "you've got the wrong guy!". Everyone who is there will know they deserve to be there.

Read more: Answers.com - Do good people go to hell

All of this is irrelevant. God allows evil, God can't stop evil, or there is no God. That's it.
 
Upvote 0

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Let us assume that morality is subjective and if we believe in an almighty and everlasting God is it so hard to fathom that He decides in a completely arbitrary fashion what is good and what is bad? If that might be the case, all of our human philosophies are irrelevant and the hubris which they display is laughable at best.

It is not hubris to ask questions. It is quite possible that God decides what's right and wrong, but what we're left with is an immoral God.
 
Upvote 0

Ken-1122

Newbie
Jan 30, 2011
13,574
1,792
✟240,710.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

thesunisout

growing in grace
Site Supporter
Mar 24, 2011
4,761
1,399
He lifts me up
✟205,051.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually, it's quite relevent because it's the way it is. It comes down to you..will you obey God or not? You think you have good reasons for not trusting God, but those are the very reasons you don't understand Him.

People who do obey God are going to go to Heaven. People who don't are going to hell. That's the simple truth..you can rationalize it all you want but in the end your rebellion doesn't mean a hill of beans. It all comes down to what is going to happen to you when you die.

Whatever moral principle you think you have (the lie the devil has sown into you) isn't going to comfort you there. God is worthy of worship, is worthy of our love, and until you take a leap of faith and trust in Him, you'll never understand or experience that. It is out of your reach because you have bought the lie.

All of this is irrelevant. God allows evil, God can't stop evil, or there is no God. That's it.
 
Upvote 0

thesunisout

growing in grace
Site Supporter
Mar 24, 2011
4,761
1,399
He lifts me up
✟205,051.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And just becasue a person is not a Christian, doesn't mean they are evil!

Len

No one is righteous, not one. The human heart is wicked. It says in the bible no one knows how wicked it really is. Christians are not good either. Only God is good. All people have sinned and fallen short. This is why God has called all of His children to repentence. This is why He sent His Son to die for our sins, so that we may be saved.

Proverbs 4:19

But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble.
 
Upvote 0

Ken-1122

Newbie
Jan 30, 2011
13,574
1,792
✟240,710.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
No one is righteous, not one. The human heart is wicked. It says in the bible no one knows how wicked it really is. Christians are not good either. Only God is good. All people have sinned and fallen short. This is why God has called all of His children to repentence. This is why He sent His Son to die for our sins, so that we may be saved.

Proverbs 4:19

But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble.


That has nothing to do with this conversation. This thread is about God allowing EVIL not imperfections.

K
 
Upvote 0

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Actually, it's quite relevent because it's the way it is. It comes down to you..will you obey God or not? You think you have good reasons for not trusting God, but those are the very reasons you don't understand Him.
Why should I trust him if I can't understand or relate to him?

People who do obey God are going to go to Heaven. People who don't are going to hell. That's the simple truth..you can rationalize it all you want but in the end your rebellion doesn't mean a hill of beans. It all comes down to what is going to happen to you when you die.
It's not the truth.

Whatever moral principle you think you have (the lie the devil has sown into you) isn't going to comfort you there. God is worthy of worship, is worthy of our love, and until you take a leap of faith and trust in Him, you'll never understand or experience that. It is out of your reach because you have bought the lie.
That's not true, either.

At any rate, after your little rant, let's get back on topic. Again, either God allows evil, can't stop evil, or doesn't exist. Which is it?
 
Upvote 0

thesunisout

growing in grace
Site Supporter
Mar 24, 2011
4,761
1,399
He lifts me up
✟205,051.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It has everything to do with it. In the garden, we were spiritually perfect. It only took one sin to make us imperfect. It only took one sin for the entire creation to fall. From that sin came death and all the evil that we see in the world today. Before man sinned there was no evil.

You ask why does God allow evil. He allows evil because He loves us and doesn't want to destroy us. Do you realize that if God wanted to completely eliminate evil He would have to destroy every human being on the planet? That's what you're not getting..it's these "imperfections" which are the source of evil.

Humanity has been in rebellion against its Creator since the first. This is why God had made a plan for our salvation. This is the reason His Son had to die, to save all of us. This is why we must know Jesus to be saved. There simply is no other way to be saved, which is to again be spiritually perfected in the image of God so we can again live together in paradise.

That has nothing to do with this conversation. This thread is about God allowing EVIL not imperfections.

K
 
Upvote 0

thesunisout

growing in grace
Site Supporter
Mar 24, 2011
4,761
1,399
He lifts me up
✟205,051.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because He is the authority, and He created you for His good pleasure. God told you exactly what to do to live a moral life pleasing to Him. You know the truth but you choose not to obey because you don't want to be held accountable. However you are being held accountable which you will find out on judgement day.

Why should I trust him if I can't understand or relate to him?


It's not the truth.


That's not true, either.

At any rate, after your little rant, let's get back on topic. Again, either God allows evil, can't stop evil, or doesn't exist. Which is it?
 
Upvote 0

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Because He is the authority, and He created you for His good pleasure. God told you exactly what to do to live a moral life pleasing to Him.
So, evil and suffering pleases him?

You know the truth but you choose not to obey because you don't want to be held accountable. However you are being held accountable which you will find out on judgement day.
Nope.
 
Upvote 0

thesunisout

growing in grace
Site Supporter
Mar 24, 2011
4,761
1,399
He lifts me up
✟205,051.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is there some reason you can't manage to muster more than a 7 syllable response? Is monosyllablism the mark of a serious intellectual these days? Also, what kind of answer do you expect to this question? Why don't you provide me with some of that reason I'm always hearing about but never seem to see from atheists..

So suffering pleases him?
 
Upvote 0

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
thesunisout said:
Is there some reason you can't manage to muster more than a 7 syllable response? Is monosyllablism the mark of a serious intellectual these days? Also, what kind of answer do you expect to this question? Why don't you provide me with some of that reason I'm always hearing about but never seem to see from atheists..
It's very simple:
Evil exists. There are only three possibilities: God allows it, God can't stop it, or there isn't a God. Which is it?
 
Upvote 0

thesunisout

growing in grace
Site Supporter
Mar 24, 2011
4,761
1,399
He lifts me up
✟205,051.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What God allows is mans free choice to obey Him or not. Man creates sin (which is evil) when He chooses to disobey Gods laws. God allows people to make their choice but he doesn't allow evil. He has specifically forbidden evil. Anyone who disobeys that will be judged, on the day of judgement. They are also putting their current lives in danger. There is a little bit more to it than you're comprehending.

It's very simple:
Evil exists. There are only three possibilities: God allows it, God can't stop it, or there isn't a God. Which is it?
 
Upvote 0

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
thesunisout said:
What God allows is mans free choice to obey Him or not. Man creates sin (which is evil) when He chooses to disobey Gods laws. God allows people to make their choice but he doesn't allow evil. He has specifically forbidden evil. Anyone who disobeys that will be judged, on the day of judgement. They are also putting their current lives in danger. There is a little bit more to it than you're comprehending.

I see. He punishes evil but allows it happen. He might send a rapist to hell but the victim's already suffered anyway.

And something which has nothing to do with free will: suffering. He allows diseases and natural disasters to cause suffering to countless people.
 
Upvote 0