Problem of evil?

[Ken-1122]

Good,then go back a few posts,and you'll get the "conclusion" from the answers,I wont repeat myself everytime.

actually I was just trying to get you to quit acting as if all bad behavior is evil; it is not.

K

 

[GA777]

Examples?
Except if you're referring to humans skills,then it is another different subject,(like badly drawing , working badly etc.) and this of course has a purpose behind it.

 

[hop]

Hello I’m back! I will attempt to answer some of your previous replies

Hop (quote) “It was not just one race that was eliminated when the world was deluged at the time of Noah. But every race, every ethnicity!”

(reply) If you see justice in this, again; I fear you and people like you.

Your unjust silence on man's wickedness appalls me.

(quote) “By the way, If you fear God you won't need to fear anybody (including me).”

(reply) I believe it was Richard Dawkins who said: "Good men will do good, and evil men will do evil; but only thru religion will a good man do evil! "

If you are willing to believe slaughtering an entire race of people is justice if your God calls it justice, then all somebody has to do is convince you that your God wants you to kill and you would probably do it without hesitation. No offence intended but I think it was people like you that Dawkins was referring to when he made that statement. No my friend, I don’t fear your God, I fear some of those who believe in your God; I fear people like you.

My previous response should suffice for your 'slaughter' story.

Tell Richard Dawkins, first of all,
1. without religion there is no good or bad
2. that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
3. good mixed with error is still bad. So Dawkin's supposed value for human life without basic acknowledgment of God is a hoax. We normally trash the words of such.
4. a good man who does evil in the name of religion is not good at all. Dawkin's fine sounding words are actually warped. He needs to redefine his terms or stop making such quotes that don't mean a thing.

The point? God defines good. And Scripture's prescription for man's obedience to God's laws is TOTAL. Not in bits or pieces (as you are very well implying). There are no excuses for violators. One or many.


(quote) “It's because the few godly men from your country feared the godless, that your country today has lesser and lesser regard for God or His commandments. The people you think who have 'run' your country have actually only run it down - ruined it. Had there been fear of God at your palaces, your homesteads would have been OK.”

(reply) I don’t think it is a coincidence that some of the most evil countries on Earth are run by religious theocracies ; where the leaders have the fear of God in their palaces. My country has its share of problems, but at least we are better than that!

Just about any philosophy that calls itself a religion, doesn't become one. The very fact that God decimated peoples off the face of the earth was because they rejected the Truth and created philosophies of their own. So don't get muddled with faiths that we are not talking about at this point.

As for your share of problems, you're probably not too far from what you fear. In the place of Christianity, you have liberalism. And it is just as militant. I have heard first hand that there is more freedom to worship (and propagate one's faith) here in a country with far more limitations than in your so called 'free' country. You have already been enslaved.


As far as Lott and his daughters, I will give you that maybe he didn’t know about the sex but it seems to me that if your God can do anything, he should have come up with a better way than incest.

God saved Lot's life in the first place. And his family as well. And God repaid this good for Lot's selfishness. The shame and disgrace Lot got was one of his own making. God does not live our lives for us and in fact offers more mercy than we deserve. The consequences of our sin will follow our actions. Even if we tout God's Name.
Ken

Please see my responses in green.

 

[hop]

Your reply to Daze (quote) “It takes greater faith (actually folly!) to believe that man came from micro-organisms than to believe what the Bible says.”

(reply) You might wanna speak for yourself about that one; if you knew more about micro-organisms than you do about the bible, you might see things differently

What about microorganisms? I'm not expecting a huge elaboration with minute details, but a broad idea.


(quote) “Before you rush to sources other than THE BOOK, do you know about THE BOOK first? There are mountains of evidences to prove its accuracy! No other book (mind you, NO OTHER BOOK - in history or literature) even comes barely close to the historical evidences and attestations as the Bible.”

(reply) Examples please? Would you mind giving some examples of some of the astronomical claims outside the laws of nature that are made in the bible that are backed up by something else other than the bible?

This is not to brush aside apparent inconsistencies you seem to see with the Bible, but:

First of all, when there is talk about an all powerful God, doing things 'outside the laws of nature' shouldn't be unthinkable. Water doesn't become wine on its own, but when Jesus blesses it, real people saw that a miracle happened that was definitely against the law of nature.

Secondly, for the Bible's antiquity, when the surrounding peoples worshipped the Sun, Moon and the Stars as gods/goddesses, the very fact that these heavenly bodies were seen as created objects by one group of people is exceptional and quite scientific for the times.

Thirdly, man's knowledge of astronomy was extremely limited. When Adam writes about the creation of the world, he doesn't offer the perspective of a scientist sitting on a NASA spacecraft. For his times, however, Adam's narration has been accepted and preserved by the generations that followed him.

Please read the book 'The Case for Christ' (If I'm right, it is by Lee Strobell). It should give you an idea of external evidences to Biblical claims.


(quote) “How else do you expect the record of this event (given the antiquity of the time & its limitations) to be preserved other than something like a book? Do you expect a replay of it on a video file?”

(reply) How about if Abraham actually wrote a book complete with his signature on it? It may not prove he is telling the truth but at least it would prove he actually believed what was written about him; which is a heck of a lot more than what you have right now!

Maybe if Abraham had a neat little leather bound journal with a good ball point pen he would have autograhped it and left it for you.

With only papyrus that comes off in shreds after a few years, not just Abraham but myriads of his descendants have preserved it for you.

But I think, even if Abraham himself did what you asked, you wouldn't believe.

(quote) “At the root there is something imperfect in me that leaves me powerless to do the good that I so desire. The bad that I do not want to do, it is to that I am a slave. I can see that my body is dead in sin.

Only because God has given me a way out, I'm persevering for His Name. He gives life to my mortal body through His Son Jesus Christ.

He has seen my inability and my willingness to persevere and has taken me in. If I do not acknowledge my problem or do not value His offer you can bet I'll be OUT! But I've chosen to be in.”

(reply) Wow! All that, and yet your behavior is no better than mine or anybody else’s who doesn’t believe in your God. Why do you suppose that is?

Why, did something go wrong? I have been a lot nicer to you (at least)!!

Ken

Please see my responses in green.

 

[hop]

NO OTHER BOOK?

I didn't reject other books, but just wanted to be sure you knew what was in the Bible first!

Unlike God's love, at least to his believers, which are limitless, historical book's accuracy is limited to 100%. Not even the cliche 110%. I can write a book comprised of name, and date of assassination and it would be 100% accurate. That make it, even with your assumption, as accurate as the Bible.

I would like to see your evidences that

1) God created the Earth first then stars and galaxies. Astronomy said it was the other way around.

When Adam narrated the creation account, he wasn't giving the first treatise on Astronomy. He writes with the limited knowledge of how he saw the earth. And every conversation God had with Adam was not on 'astronomical facts and figures'.

The fact that these heavenly bodies were seen as objects instead of deities (quite unlike how the surrounding peoples saw these heavenly bodies), is itself noteworthy!

Further, Astronomy will tell one thing today and change it tomorrow. Scientists today suspect that the eath is a lot younger unlike before. I remember studying that atom is the smallest indivisible particle and here we are way way beyond that!! May be you've got to take it a bit slower.

Lastly, if God can turn water to wine, and restore sight to a man born blind, it's quite possible that the Maker can control the order of the heavenly bodies at specific times.

2) Joshua commanded the Sun stood still. I would assume that the Chinese or Hindu write that down that monumental event. Only God had the power to keep Earth inhabitants from flinging through the air with the sudden stop of the Sun.

When Jesus died, the fact that the sun was darkened has been attested by a few historians (secular ones!).

However, writing was not too common a phenomenon in the early times. Given its rarity, and the busyness of everyday life and its affairs, it's quite unlikely that it may be written down. Even if it was written down, it's preservation is altogether is another matter.

That makes it sound like you're asking for the moon!



What if, in one of your spiritual encounters, God mentioned the wickedness of New York City? After all, they just approved gay marriage. What if He sactioned you to take appropriate action to stop the gay marriage? Would yo do it?

I don't think I need a spiritual encounter for this one. I just need an opportunity.


No, just other sources than the Bible. See my comment with regards to Joshua.


See my response for that comment.

The tone went from "I want to do bad things but for God's laws" to "woe is me".

Bingo! And I think I have done well to do that.



Again, if God demanded that you, through your personal experiences with Him, to wipe out New York City because He deemed that the city is so wicked, would you?

Answered

Comments in red.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Nobody is blaming your God for what Stalin did, (I don't even believe in your idea of God) I'm just saying if he did exist and were as good and fair as you guys claim he is, he would have stopped Stalin.

Ken

Your definition of 'loving' or 'good' must be different than that of others.

I don't believe 'loving' means 'never allowing anything bad to happen.' In fact, it's pretty obvious that Christians generally don't believe this. Why do you believe it?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Your definition of 'loving' or 'good' must be different than that of others.

I don't believe 'loving' means 'never allowing anything bad to happen.' In fact, it's pretty obvious that Christians generally don't believe this. Why do you believe it?

I believe it because I love my son.

 

[Ken-1122]

Welcome back to the debate Hop! Your impute has definitely been missed.

Me referring to the destruction during Noah’s time (quote) “If you see justice in this, again; I fear you and people like you.”

Hop replied (quote) “Your unjust silence on man's wickedness appalls me.”

(reply) what happened to mercy? What happened to forgiveness? If God can do anything he can change a person’s heart so he would want to do good; don’t cha think? I don’t think every single man woman and child were so wicked that they all deserved death.

(quote) “Tell Richard Dawkins, first of all,
1. without religion there is no good or bad”

(reply) Then why do societies that worship what you would consider a non-existent God recognize good and bad?

(quote) “2. that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”

(reply) Quoting your bible means nothing to me or Richard Dawkins; got anything else?

(quote) “. good mixed with error is still bad. So Dawkin's supposed value for human life without basic acknowledgment of God is a hoax. We normally trash the words of such.”

(reply) Wrong! Good mixed with bad consists of good AND bad! Why do you give bad more power than good? And it wouldn’t surprise me if Dawkins and I know more about your God claims than you do!

(quote) “4. a good man who does evil in the name of religion is not good at all.”

(reply) Really! Was Moses a good man? Was Saul? Or Joshua good men? If you consider the atrocious actions these men are guilty of during war a “good” thing, then allow me to add you to that list of men I fear.

(quote) “The point? God defines good. And Scripture's prescription for man's obedience to God's laws is TOTAL.”

(reply) But what the bible says about God is so vague that whatever agenda a corrupt man might have can be supported by the bible; that’s why so many people disagree on what God expects of us

(quote) “Just about any philosophy that calls itself a religion, doesn't become one. The very fact that God decimated peoples off the face of the earth was because they rejected the Truth and created philosophies of their own.”

(reply) When a person twists and contorts a religion to their liking, it is still a religion; your argument fails.

(quote) “As for your share of problems, you're probably not too far from what you fear. In the place of Christianity, you have liberalism. And it is just as militant.”

(reply) even when you choose the lesser of two evils; you’re still choosing evil.

Next when I said: “Would you mind giving some examples of some of the astronomical claims outside the laws of nature that are made in the bible that are backed up by something else other than the bible?”

Hop replied: (quote) “This is not to brush aside apparent inconsistencies you seem to see with the Bible, but:

First of all, when there is talk about an all powerful God, doing things 'outside the laws of nature' shouldn't be unthinkable. Water doesn't become wine on its own, but when Jesus blesses it, real people saw that a miracle happened that was definitely against the law of nature.”

(reply) those who wrote about Jesus made this claim just as those who wrote about the man-God Dionysus claimed he turned water into wine and he did this long before Jesus was even thought of! Why should your claim be believed over someone else’s?

(quote)” Secondly, for the Bible's antiquity, when the surrounding peoples worshipped the Sun, Moon and the Stars as gods/goddesses, the very fact that these heavenly bodies were seen as created objects by one group of people is exceptional and quite scientific for the times.”

(reply) Are you suggesting your religion was the first religion to see planets as created objects? Let me guess…. You don’t know much about other religions do you???

(quote) “Thirdly, man's knowledge of astronomy was extremely limited. When Adam writes about the creation of the world, he doesn't offer the perspective of a scientist sitting on a NASA spacecraft. For his times, however, Adam's narration has been accepted and preserved by the generations that followed him.”

(reply) Nobody is suggesting his account should be as detailed as NASA I’m just saying, if there was no morning and evening, he shouldn’t have said there was one

Next when I said: “Wow! All that, and yet your behavior is no better than mine or anybody else’s who doesn’t believe in your God. Why do you suppose that is?”

Hop replied (quote) “Why, did something go wrong? I have been a lot nicer to you (at least)!!”

(reply) No I just don’t need a God looking over my shoulder keeping score in order to have a reason to behave

(quote) “Your definition of 'loving' or 'good' must be different than that of others.
I don't believe 'loving' means 'never allowing anything bad to happen.' In fact, it's pretty obvious that Christians generally don't believe this. Why do you believe it?”

(reply) Nobody is talking about bad things happening, we are talking about evil. Do you know the difference?

Ken

 

[GA777]

I believe it because I love my son.

It's funny how some people think that there wont be an eternal world.People arent born the children of God,they become the children of God,and when they become that,if they want to , of course.Afterwards, They'd feel God's love and experience his love as a father.