Pro-Abortion?

[Catherineanne]

If you want to give women the choice to kill their own baby you are pro-abortion.

Nice try at slander, but no cigar. It is not I who give them that choice. Every woman already has that choice, whoever she is and wherever she lives. It is then simply a matter of whether and how she exercises that choice; legally or illegally.

Given that we cannot legislate abortion away completely, no matter how much we might like to, the choice is actually to have regulated or unregulated abortion. I choose it to be regulated, so that the law can have some control over how and when it is done, and we can have some control over the law. If we force abortion underground then there is going to be far less protection than there is at present, and far more lives lost.

Tnerefore, although I am anti abortion, given that there is actually no way on earth to ensure that every child is wanted, and every parent capable of providing for it, I am also pro choice. I would imagine this is true of many Christians. If we as a society fail to provide the information to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and appropriate support for mothers in poverty, then it is our responsibility if those without the means to support a child choose to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. The women should not be blamed for this; the responsibility is on all of us.

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

Nice try at slander, but no cigar. It is not I who give them that choice. Every woman already has that choice, whoever she is and wherever she lives. It is then simply a matter of whether and how she exercises that choice; legally or illegally.

Given that we cannot legislate abortion away completely, no matter how much we might like to, the choice is actually to have regulated or unregulated abortion. I choose it to be regulated, so that the law can have some control over how and when it is done, and we can have some control over the law. If we force abortion underground then there is going to be far less protection than there is at present, and far more lives lost.

Tnerefore, although I am anti abortion, given that there is actually no way on earth to ensure that every child is wanted, and every parent capable of providing for it, I am also pro choice. I would imagine this is true of many Christians. If we as a society fail to provide the information to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and appropriate support for mothers in poverty, then it is our responsibility if those without the means to support a child choose to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. The women should not be blamed for this; the responsibility is on all of us.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Catherineanne,

Nice try at slander, but no cigar.

Sorry, but that is my position on your views, wanting to give women the choice to kill their own baby is in my view pro-abortion because it allows it by choice.
　

It is not I who give them that choice. Every woman already has that choice, whoever she is and wherever she lives. It is then simply a matter of whether and how she exercises that choice; legally or illegally.

Sure, it was the legality I was referring to.

Given that we cannot legislate abortion away completely, no matter how much we might like to, the choice is actually to have regulated or unregulated abortion.

No, I dont go with that or we could also not that we cant legislate child abuse away either.
If we educate people and provide abortion in cases where life was threatened.
Remember, in back street abortions where the mother may be in danger, the unborn baby is still being killed.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Great post mdancin4theLord,


as to this..

And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?"

Remember one is now dealing with different worldviews, if one can kill the unborn why not the born? Sure for the pro-choice, no, but the logic is still there for other worldviews, the pro-life worldview is against both.

 

[lux et lex]

Abortion was not illegal before 1973. It was some places, but it was very much legal in others. Do some research.

 

[chris4243]

Exactly how does supporting the right of choice make one "Pro-Abortion"?

Since they ran out of facts they have to revert to name-calling and strawmanning. I suppose the reasoning, if you can call it that, would be that since pro-choice is not as opposed to abortion as the anti-abortion group is, they could be called pro-abortion in comparison. Pro-choice would also require that abortion be allowed by law, even if they personally don't like abortion, so it would be a pro-legalization-of-abortion position.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Lux et Lex,

Abortion was not illegal before 1973.

yes it was.

It was some places,

So you cant say it wasnt then.

but it was very much legal in others.

and very much illegal in others.

Do some research.

good point, it means when you say its legal we can say its illegal, that should progress the debate a long way

 

[brightmorningstar]

chris4243,

Exactly how does supporting the right of choice make one "Pro-Abortion"?

As we explained that, perhaps you could explian how exactlky it doesnt?

Since they ran out of facts they have to revert to name-calling and strawmanning. I suppose the reasoning, if you can call it that, would be that since pro-choice is not as opposed to abortion as the anti-abortion group is, they could be called pro-abortion in comparison. Pro-choice would also require that abortion be allowed by law, even if they personally don't like abortion, so it would be a pro-legalization-of-abortion position. [/quiote] Seems to me you have reverted to the very straw man and personal judgements you are complaining about. But for the record, if you allow people to choose to do something you allow it ny that means. You wouldn't say allowing people to choose whether they do paedophilia was not pro-paedophilia would you?

 

[lux et lex]

Lux et Lex,
yes it was.
So you cant say it wasnt then.
and very much illegal in others. good point, it means when you say its legal we can say its illegal, that should progress the debate a long way

My point, which apparently was lost on you, was that it was not categorically illegal like some like to claim.

 

[SharonL]

Pro choice is before the act - after it is not a choice - it is a life.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

I repeat

Conversely I would suppose that given the almost incalculable amount of human suffering and death that has resulted from the anti contraception/abortion and misinformation campaigns of elements of the RCC and American evangelicals in Sub Saharan African countries this would make such people pro suffering and death?

 

[SonOfTheWest]

chris4243,
As we explained that, perhaps you could explian how exactlky it doesnt?

Since they ran out of facts they have to revert to name-calling and strawmanning. I suppose the reasoning, if you can call it that, would be that since pro-choice is not as opposed to abortion as the anti-abortion group is, they could be called pro-abortion in comparison. Pro-choice would also require that abortion be allowed by law, even if they personally don't like abortion, so it would be a pro-legalization-of-abortion position. [/quiote] Seems to me you have reverted to the very straw man and personal judgements you are complaining about. But for the record, if you allow people to choose to do something you allow it ny that means. You wouldn't say allowing people to choose whether they do paedophilia was not pro-paedophilia would you?

Because any human being with a basic grasp of human language understand that "choice" involves decisions between multiple items, outcomes,etc.

In this case, if someone is pro people having choices and that makes them "pro abortion" by the fiat of that being one of the choices then since "Maintain the pregnancy until childbirth." would also be a choice then being pro choice means you are "pro life.".

 

[chris4243]

chris4243,
As we explained that, perhaps you could explian how exactlky it doesnt?

Being pro-choice automatically makes you pro-life by the same logic that would automatically make you pro-abortion. So why aren't you calling pro-choice people pro-life as well?

 

[katautumn]

I still say straightforward terminology would eliminate this debate. When discussing abortion - not contraception, not adoption, not abstinence - only abortion, one is either for or against the practice. Even if you're against it for yourself, if you or your partner became pregnant, but support the legal option, then you are pro-abortion. If you don't, then you're anti-abortion. Simple as that. Trying to throw adoption and keeping the baby and contraception into the equation muddies the issue. If you support those three choices, but not abortion, does that mean you're totally anti-choice? If you support the death penalty, are you wholly pro-life?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Lux et Lex,

My point, which apparently was lost on you, was that it was not categorically illegal like some like to claim.

Not sure I have seen anyone claim that for the secular.

 

[chris4243]

I would say that I'm anti-abortion but pro-legality-of-abortion.

 

[brightmorningstar]

SonofTheWest,

Because any human being with a basic grasp of human language understand that "choice" involves decisions between multiple items, outcomes,etc.

Depends what you mean by ‘human being’

In this case, if someone is pro people having choices and that makes them "pro abortion" by the fiat of that being one of the choices then since "Maintain the pregnancy until childbirth." would also be a choice then being pro choice means you are "pro life.".

So address the analogy, would someone who gave choice to the paedophile be pro-paedophilia? I assume you say no, but I would say they were as by being for the choice one is allowing the opportunity to paedophilia.
So from the pro-choice position why not give choice to people whether they engage in paedophilia?
NB and don’t say because paedophilia is wrong as so is abortion, indeed an abused child may recover from the abuse, the unborn will be dead and never recover.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Chris4243,

Being pro-choice automatically makes you pro-life by the same logic that would automatically make you pro-abortion. So why aren't you calling pro-choice people pro-life as well?

Not quite, the only thing in discussion here is abortion, in one option it isnt supproted and in the other it may be.

 

[brightmorningstar]

KatAutumn,

Even if you're against it for yourself, if you or your partner became pregnant, but support the legal option, then you are pro-abortion.

So if your partner becomes pregnant then what caused that?

 

[SonOfTheWest]

SonofTheWest,
Depends what you mean by ‘human being’

Actually no....it doesn't. You just have to understand what the word "choice" means. Apparently some people do not.

So address the analogy, would someone who gave choice to the paedophile be pro-paedophilia?

It wasn't an analogy. It was pointing out what the word choice entails in the situation. Sorry if that is lost on you. Also your question is so monumentally vague it's nonsensical.