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Pro-Abortion?

ajunkyarddog

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The entire premise. If I quoted the following as a reason why you shouldn't eat at Jack in the Box...what would you say?

"
In tracing the outbreak in Washington to suspect patties at Jack in the Box units, state health officials said the chain's cooks were observed violating an 8-month-old state requirement that hamburgers be cooked to a minimum temperature of 155 degrees. The minimum was raised from 140 degrees last year because of a similar but smaller outbreak of illnesses.
"While the Washington state health department recently, and we think appropriately, upgraded their temperature regulations for hamburger, it is clear that Jack in the Box was not properly informed of this change," Nugent asserted during a Seattle press conference." --Feb 1, 1993 CBS

Sure, the times do change some things. What is different about abortion though that you need other evidence on. If you were doing research into suicides by hanging, would you disregard information of someone from the 50s that hung themselves because that was "old" info? Some things don't change.

So, what SPECIFICALLY do you want recent information on out of the items that the person you are commenting on as having old information as listed.
 
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Archivist

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First of all, please keep on point. We are specifically discussing the use of the term "Pro-Abortion".

It has been stated that those who call themselves "Pro-Choice" are in fact "Pro-Abortion" beacuse some pregnant women may choose to have an abortion.

As I already pointed out, using this same logic (or lack of logic) one who is "Pro-Democrary" is therefore "Pro_Obama", because some could support Obama. It could also be said, using the logic (or lack thereof) put forward by some that anyone who is "Pro-Democracy" is also "Pro-Nazi" and "Pro-Communist" and "Pro-[insert your favorite extremeist organization] since democrary allows people to vote for whoever they want.

The fact is taht the only people who could be said who are "Pro-Abortion" would be those who would see abortion as being the only option for any pregnancy. I know of no one who is taking that position.
 
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AllieBaba2012

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I am NOT pro-abortion, I am PRO CHOICE. Get it right!
Semantics. I know that pro-choice people are typically also pro-abortion. You will find they all have a point where they will encourage abortion for some women in some situations, usually based on the backwards and incorrect idea that aborting babies reduces crime, or abuse, or something.

That is pro-abortion.
 
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Archivist

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Semantics. I know that pro-choice people are typically also pro-abortion. You will find they all have a point where they will encourage abortion for some women in some situations, usually based on the backwards and incorrect idea that aborting babies reduces crime, or abuse, or something.

That is pro-abortion.

Really? Do you have proof that all people who call themselves Pro-Choice of this? I'm Pro-Choice and yet I have never encouraged anyone to have an abortion for any reason.
 
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AllieBaba2012

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Really? Do you have proof that all people who call themselves Pro-Choice of this? I'm Pro-Choice and yet I have never encouraged anyone to have an abortion for any reason.

I didn't say all people.

If you support the right to abort, you support the right to kill.

You cannot be pro-life, if you support the right to kill (many pro-abortionists claim they're really "pro-life" by some sort of convoluted reasoning).

Likewise, if you support legislation that removes the stigma of abortion, and makes it legal, then you are "pro abortion". You are for abortion being legal. I can't make it any clearer.

I feel sorry for people who have been brainwashed into viewing it as something other than it is, and who think that good intentions mean that supporting the right to legally murder is somehow not supporting murder.
 
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Archivist

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I didn't say all people.

Yes you did. You exact words were "I know that pro-choice people are typically also pro-abortion. You will find they all have a point where they will encourage abortion..."

If you support the right to abort, you support the right to kill.

But Pro-Choice individuals don't support the right to abort. They support the right to choose.

You cannot be pro-life, if you support the right to kill (many pro-abortionists claim they're really "pro-life" by some sort of convoluted reasoning).

Many? Really? The ones I know use the title "Pro-Choice".

Likewise, if you support legislation that removes the stigma of abortion, and makes it legal, then you are "pro abortion". You are for abortion being legal. I can't make it any clearer.

So, if you support democracy you are automatically "Pro-Nazi" beacuse the Nazi Party is recognized as a political party in many places. It is the same reasoning...

I feel sorry for people who have been brainwashed into viewing it as something other than it is, and who think that good intentions mean that supporting the right to legally murder is somehow not supporting murder.

Abortion is not murder because it does not meet the definition of murder, but please start your own thread if you want to discuss that topic.
 
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AllieBaba2012

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Yes you did. You exact words were "I know that pro-choice people are typically also pro-abortion. You will find they all have a point where they will encourage abortion..."



But Pro-Choice individuals don't support the right to abort. They support the right to choose.



Many? Really? The ones I know use the title "Pro-Choice".



So, if you support democracy you are automatically "Pro-Nazi" beacuse the Nazi Party is recognized as a political party in many places. It is the same reasoning...



Abortion is not murder because it does not meet the definition of murder, but please start your own thread if you want to discuss that topic.

I can discuss it here. It is murder. Murder is murder regardless of whether it is defined legally as murder (it wasn't considered murder to kill slaves, for example. It isn't murder to kill your female relatives in honor killings, in some societies). I don't care what titles you adorn yourself with. You are justifying murder and the legalization of abortion.

If you promote the legalization of murder, you are pro-murder. If you promote the legalizatino of abortion (oh, I'm sorry...it's "choice" now, isn't it, lol) then you are pro-abortion.

You may argue it all you like. The fact is, you are wrong. The Nazis didn't call it murder, either. But history shows us exactly what it is, and what those who supported them were. History will do the same with this issue.

BTW, your analogy between democrats and Nazis and pro-abortionists and pro-choice is a false premise.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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I didn't say all people.

If you support the right to abort, you support the right to kill.

You cannot be pro-life, if you support the right to kill (many pro-abortionists claim they're really "pro-life" by some sort of convoluted reasoning).

Likewise, if you support legislation that removes the stigma of abortion, and makes it legal, then you are "pro abortion". You are for abortion being legal. I can't make it any clearer.

I feel sorry for people who have been brainwashed into viewing it as something other than it is, and who think that good intentions mean that supporting the right to legally murder is somehow not supporting murder.

Again Allie you are right on. They can't stand being called pro-abortion because its inhumane...it is cruel, barbaric. THEY WANT ABORTION LEGAL....if that is not pro-abortion I do not know what is....they want it legal so that the option to kill is there for the women who choose to kill.
They do not stand up for the unborn in the womb...they do not stand up against it as sin...because they ignore the scriptures on life and the value God has for the unborn. They try to convince themselves....but they know....what they are. The allow by being pro-choice....women the option to kill. How is this pro-life? It isnt.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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I can discuss it here. It is murder. Murder is murder regardless of whether it is defined legally as murder (it wasn't considered murder to kill slaves, for example. It isn't murder to kill your female relatives in honor killings, in some societies). I don't care what titles you adorn yourself with. You are justifying murder and the legalization of abortion.

If you promote the legalization of murder, you are pro-murder. If you promote the legalizatino of abortion (oh, I'm sorry...it's "choice" now, isn't it, lol) then you are pro-abortion.

You may argue it all you like. The fact is, you are wrong. The Nazis didn't call it murder, either. But history shows us exactly what it is, and what those who supported them were. History will do the same with this issue.

BTW, your analogy between democrats and Nazis and pro-abortionists and pro-choice is a false premise.

I thank the Lord that you are here Allie.....thank you Jesus for Allie and that she is standing firm against people who believe killing can be the answer for some people. Give her strength...in Your Name.

You talk about names....our pastor talked about this today in church. He has been arrested eight times for praying and marching against abortion. He said the pro-choice community uses terms that are friendly.....terminate is really the act of killing. Medical procedure....choice.....all terms Hitler said used to brainwash people, to throw them off, to hide the real truth.
 
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AllieBaba2012

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One of my biggest problems with planned parenthood is that it markets to young and vulnerable women/girls, who are often being victimized. And in the name of "privacy" it shields and protects the men who victimize these girls.

"
In this study, Coleman, Coyle, and Rue found that women having late-term abortions gave evidence of having poor support from the father of the child. For example they were more apt to report having left their partner prior to the abortion and keeping the abortion a secret from the partner. They also reported higher levels of pressure to abort the pregnancy. Since they delayed the abortion into the 2nd and 3rd trimesters, this suggests that they were especially conflicted over the idea of the abortion and finally did it after sufficient pressure was exerted.
Women having late-term abortions gave additional evidence of having poor social support. They were more apt to have been the victims of physical abuse in childhood than those who had early abortions. They were also more apt to have been the victims of physical and sexual abuse in adulthood."

Research Study Finds Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Increases with Late Term Abortions

These are exactly the women that pro-abortionists claim "need" abortion the most. They prate continually about how women must be able to have an abortion if they have been abused, if they are victims...if you're a victim, you SHOULD get an abortion! I've heard it on this site..."what about rape and incest?" Why, by all means get an abortion and hide the crime so it's like it NEVER HAPPENED.

Those are also the ones who are most likely to be FORCED into abortion...but PP doesn't bother about that.

And for those who claim it's not being "marketed"...take a look at this nifty poster that I'm supposed to put up in my office. I'm a state caseworker, and these are all over the place..in schools, in family services buildings, in public restrooms, in welfare offices...and note the age of the two on the front...

001.jpg



ccare.oregon.gov is a site of HKC, or HEALTHY KIDS CONNECT. It's INSURANCE FOR CHILDREN. HKC does not cover adult contraceptives or abortions. This is marketed directly at underaged kids.
 
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brightmorningstar

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It has been stated that those who call themselves "Pro-Choice" are in fact "Pro-Abortion" beacuse some pregnant women may choose to have an abortion.
yes thats right they are.

As I already pointed out, using this same logic (or lack of logic) one who is "Pro-Democrary" is therefore "Pro_Obama", because some could support Obama.
Incorrect as you are only using the choice for those who can choose, the unborn baby has no choice.
The fact is taht the only people who could be said who are "Pro-Abortion" would be those who would see abortion as being the only option for any pregnancy. I know of no one who is taking that position.
Then you aren’t listening to your opponents argument.
But Pro-Choice individuals don't support the right to abort. They support the right to choose.
Then they support the right of those who choose to abort. The do not support the right of the unborn who cannot choose.
Abortion is not murder because it does not meet the definition of murder,
It doesnt meet your definition of murder, nor the definition of the US.
but please start your own thread if you want to discuss that topic.
but it is murder according to God’s word so we will discuss it here.
 
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brightmorningstar

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Alliebaba2012,
One of my biggest problems with planned parenthood is that it markets to young and vulnerable women/girls, who are often being victimized. And in the name of "privacy" it shields and protects the men who victimize these girls.
I agree with you, but in the UK politicians have managed to get independent advice for people rather than just the abortion providers. It would be good if the same could happen in the US.
 
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I can discuss it here. It is murder. Murder is murder regardless of whether it is defined legally as murder (it wasn't considered murder to kill slaves, for example. It isn't murder to kill your female relatives in honor killings, in some societies). I don't care what titles you adorn yourself with. You are justifying murder and the legalization of abortion.

If you want to start your own thread to discuss this topic fine, but don't hijack thsi thread. Stay on point.

If you promote the legalization of murder, you are pro-murder. If you promote the legalizatino of abortion (oh, I'm sorry...it's "choice" now, isn't it, lol) then you are pro-abortion.

You may argue it all you like. The fact is, you are wrong.

I'm your opinion.

BTW, your analogy between democrats and Nazis and pro-abortionists and pro-choice is a false premise.

This is what thev thread is about. If you consider the analogy to be wrong, explain exactly how iy is wrong. No one has yet done that.
 
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yes thats right they are.

Then anyone who is pro-democracy is also pro-Nazi according to your reasoning.

Incorrect as you are only using the choice for those who can choose, the unborn baby has no choice.

The fetus is not a person-in-being.

Then you aren’t listening to your opponents argument.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain their reasoning. "Pro" means "in favor of" or "for". Pro-abortion would mean that you are in favor of every pregnancy ending in abortion. I know of no one who takes that position. Simply being in favor of offering a choice doesn't mean thay you are in favor of that choice being abortion. In the vast majority of pregnancies abortion is not the choice.

Then they support the right of those who choose to abort. The do not support the right of the unborn who cannot choose.

They also support the rights of those who choose to give birth.

It doesnt meet your definition of murder, nor the definition of the US. but it is murder according to God’s word so we will discuss it here.

It doesn't meet the accepted definition of murder. However, that isn't the issue in this threaed. Please stay on point.
 
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brightmorningstar

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Then anyone who is pro-democracy is also pro-Nazi according to your reasoning.
Not sure, Nazi is anti democracy isn’t it? But would you be pro-choice for paedophilia? I suspect not, so choice is no necessarily a good thing.
The fetus is not a person-in-being.
Yes the unborn baby is a human being. Sorry but the point was about choice and NOT about your particular view of the unborn baby.
So I will repeat the point, you are incorrect as you are only using the choice for those who can choose, the unborn baby has no choice.
It doesn't meet the accepted definition of murder.
The US definition of abortion as not murder is not accepted here my be or many. And wouldn’t be even if we lived in the US. So dont bother with it.

However, that isn't the issue in this threaed. Please stay on point.
So it is crucial to the discussion.
 
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AllieBaba2012

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If you want to start your own thread to discuss this topic fine, but don't hijack thsi thread. Stay on point.

I am on point. Just because you don't have a firm grasp of debate doesn't mean I'm in the wrong.




I'm your opinion.

This entire argumentis largely opinion, and mine is as valid as yours. Probably more valid, since it's based upon Scripture, science, and collected data.



This is what thev thread is about. If you consider the analogy to be wrong, explain exactly how iy is wrong. No one has yet done that.

It's a false analagy, a false premise, and a logical fallacy. Do you know what a logical fallacy is? In debate, you cannot make an argument using logical fallacy. Logical fallacies are the nemesis of critical thinking.
 
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AllieBaba2012

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University of Phoenix Material MASTER LIST OF LOGICAL FALLACIES
From Critical Thinking:

1. Ad hominem or ATTACKING THE PERSON. Attacking the arguer rather than his/her argument. Example: John's objections to capital punishment carry no weight since he is a convicted felon. Note: Saying something negative about someone is not automatically ad hominem. If a person (politician for example) is the issue, then it is not a fallacy to criticize him/her.
2. Ad ignorantium or APPEAL TO IGNORANCE. Arguing on the basis of what is not known and cannot be proven. (Sometimes called the “burden of proof” fallacy). If you can't prove that something is true then it must be false (and vice versa). Example: You can't prove there isn't a Loch Ness Monster, so there must be one.
3. Ad verecundiam or APPEAL TO AUTHORITY. This fallacy tries to convince the listener by appealing to the reputation of a famous or respected person. Oftentimes it is an authority in one field who is speaking out of his or her field of expertise. Example: Sports stars selling cars or hamburgers. Or, the actor on a TV commercial that says, "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV."
4. AFFIRMING THE CONSEQUENT. An invalid form of the conditional argument. In this case, the second premise affirms the consequent of the first premise and the conclusion affirms the antecedent. Example: If he wants to get that job, then he must know Spanish. He knows Spanish, so the job is his.
5. AMPHIBOLY. A fallacy of syntactical ambiguity where the position of words in a sentence or the juxtaposition of two sentences conveys a mistaken idea. This fallacy is like equivocation except that the ambiguity does not result from a shift in meaning of a single word or phrase, but is created by word placement.. Example: Jim said he saw Jenny walk her dog through the window. Ow! She should be reported for animal abuse.
6. APPEAL TO EMOTION. In this fallacy, the arguer uses emotional appeals rather than logical reasons to persuade the listener. The fallacy can appeal to various emotions including pride, pity, fear, hate, vanity, or sympathy. Generally, the issue is oversimplified to the advantage of the arguer. Example: In 1972, there was a widely-printed advertisement printed by the Foulke Fur Co., which was in reaction to the frequent protests against the killing of Alaskan seals for the making of fancy furs. According to the advertisement, clubbing the seals was one of the great conservation stories of our history, a mere exercise in wildlife management, because "biologists believe a healthier colony is a controlled colony."
7. ARGUMENT FROM ANALOGY or FALSE ANALOGY. An unsound form of inductive argument in which an argument relies heavily on a weak analogy to prove its point. Example: This must be a great car, for, like the finest watches in the world, it was made in Switzerland.
8. BEGGING THE QUESTION. An argument in which the conclusion is implied or already assumed in the premises. Also said to be a circular argument. Example: Of course the Bible is the word of God. Why? Because God says so in the Bible.
9. SLIPPERY SLOPE. A line of reasoning that argues against taking a step because it assumes that if you take the first step, you will inevitably follow through to the last. This fallacy uses the valid form of hypothetical syllogism, but uses guesswork for the premises. Example: We can't allow students any voice in decision making on campus; if we do, it won't be long before they are in total control.
10. COMMON BELIEF (Sometimes called the “bandwagon” fallacy or ‘appeal to popularity”). This fallacy is committed when we assert a statement to be true on the evidence that many other people allegedly believe it. Being widely believed is not proof or evidence of the truth. Example: Of course Nixon was guilty in Watergate. Everybody knows that.
11. PAST BELIEF. A form of the COMMON BELIEF fallacy. The same error in reasoning is committed except the claim is for belief or support in the past. Example: We all know women should obey their husbands. After all, marriage vows contained those words for centuries.
12. CONTRARY TO FACT HYPOTHESIS. This fallacy is committed when we state with an unreasonable degree of certainty the results of an event that might have occurred but did not. Example: If President Bush had not gone into the Persian Gulf with military force when he did, Saddam Hussein would control the world's oil from Saudi Arabia today.
13. DENYING THE ANTECEDENT. An invalid form of the conditional argument. In this one, the second premise denies the antecedent of the first premise, and the conclusion denies the consequent. Often mistaken for modus tollens. Example: If she qualifies for a promotion, she must speak English. She doesn’t qualify for the promotion, so she must not know how to speak English.
14. DIVISION. This fallacy is committed when we conclude that any part of a particular whole must have a characteristic because the whole has that characteristic. Example: I am sure that Karen plays the piano well, since her family is so musical.
15. COMPOSITION. This fallacy is committed when we conclude that a whole must have a characteristic because some part of it has that characteristic. Example: The Dawson clan must be rolling in money, since Fred Dawson makes a lot from his practice.
16. FALSE DILEMMA (often called the either/or fallacy or false dichotomy). This fallacy assumes that we must choose one of two alternatives instead of allowing for other possibilities; a false form of disjunctive syllogism. Example: “America, love it or leave it.” (The implication is, since you don’t love it the only option is to leave it).
17. EQUIVOCATION. This fallacy is a product of semantic ambiguity. The arguer uses the ambiguous nature of a word or phrase to shift the meaning in such a way as to make the reason offered appear more convincing. Example: We realize that workers are idle during the period of lay-offs. But the government should never subsidize idleness, which has often been condemned as a vice. Therefore, payments to laid off workers are wrong.
18. HASTY GENERALIZATION. A generalization accepted on the support of a sample that is too small or biased to warrant it. Example: All men are rats! Just look at the louse that I married.
19. POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC. (“After this, therefore caused by this.”) A form of the false cause fallacy in which it is inferred that because one event followed another it is necessarily caused by that event. Example: Mary joined our class and the next week we all did poorly on the quiz. It must be her fault.
20. INCONSISTENCY. A discourse is inconsistent or self-contradicting if it contains, explicitly or implicitly, two assertions that are logically incompatible with each other. Inconsistency can also occur between words and actions. Example: A woman who represents herself as a feminist, yet doesn’t believe women should run for Congress.
21. NON SEQUITUR. (“It does not follow.”) In this fallacy the premises have no direct relationship to the conclusion. This fallacy appears in political speeches and advertising with great frequency. Example: A waterfall in the background and a beautiful girl in the foreground have nothing to do with an automobile's performance.
22. QUESTIONABLE CAUSE. (In Latin: non causa pro causa, “not the cause of that”). This form of the false cause fallacy occurs when the cause for an occurrence is identified on insufficient evidence. Example: I can't find the checkbook; I am sure that my husband hid it so I couldn't go shopping today.
23. RED HERRING. This fallacy introduces an irrelevant issue into a discussion as a diversionary tactic. It takes people off the issue at hand; it is beside the point. Example: Many people say that engineers need more practice in writing, but I would like to remind them how difficult it is to master all the math and drawing skills that an engineer requires.
24. SLANTING. A form of misrepresentation in which a true statement is made, but made in such a way as to suggest that something is not true or to give a false description through the manipulation of connotation. Example: I can't believe how much money is being poured into the space program (suggesting that 'poured' means heedless and unnecessary spending)
25. STRAW MAN. This fallacy occurs when we misrepresent an opponent's position to make it easier to attack, usually by distorting his or her views to ridiculous extremes. This can also take the form of attacking only the weak premises in an opposing argument while ignoring the strong ones. Example: Those who favor gun-control legislation just want to take all guns away from responsible citizens and put them into the hands of the criminals.
26. TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT. This fallacy is committed when we try to justify an apparently wrong action by charges of a similar wrong. The underlying assumption is that if they do it, then we can do it too and are somehow justified. Example: Supporters of apartheid are often guilty of this error in reasoning. They point to U.S. practices of slavery to justify their system.
27. FAR-FETCHED HYPOTHESIS. A fallacy of inductive reasoning that is committed when we accept a particular hypothesis when a more acceptable hypothesis, or one more strongly based in fact, is available. Example: The African-American church was set afire after the civil rights meeting last night; therefore, it must have been done by the leader and the minister to cast suspicion on the local segregationists.
 
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AllieBaba2012

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Not sure, Nazi is anti democracy isn’t it? But would you be pro-choice for paedophilia? I suspect not, so choice is no necessarily a good thing.
Yes the unborn baby is a human being. Sorry but the point was about choice and NOT about your particular view of the unborn baby.
So I will repeat the point, you are incorrect as you are only using the choice for those who can choose, the unborn baby has no choice.
The US definition of abortion as not murder is not accepted here my be or many. And wouldn’t be even if we lived in the US. So dont bother with it.

So it is crucial to the discussion.

I think, maybe, what he's getting at in a roundabout way, is that pro-choice = pro-abortion, then democrat=nazi????

Cuz the nazis proclaimed they were socialists, i guess....they were lying, of course.

I dunno...
 
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