Pro-Abortion?

[Archivist]

Not sure, Nazi is anti democracy isn’t it?

First, the Nazi Party is not necessarily anti-democracy. The American Nazi Party has specifically expressed allegiance to US Constitutional principles. Further, I have not referenced only the Nazi Party. I can't keep repeating myself, but in my post #22 I specifically said the following: "As I already pointed out, using this same logic (or lack of logic) one who is "Pro-Democrary" is therefore "Pro-Obama", because some could support Obama. It could also be said, using the logic (or lack thereof) put forward by some that anyone who is "Pro-Democracy" is also "Pro-Nazi" and "Pro-Communist" and "Pro-[insert your favorite extremeist organization] since democrary allows people to vote for whoever they want."

But would you be pro-choice for paedophilia? I suspect not, so choice is no necessarily a good thing.

But Pro-Choice is specifically used in context of abortion, not paedophilla.

Yes the unborn baby is a human being. Sorry but the point was about choice and NOT about your particular view of the unborn baby.

A potential human being. In any event please saty on point--we are specifically addressing the misuse by some of the term pro-abortion.

So I will repeat the point, you are incorrect as you are only using the choice for those who can choose, the unborn baby has no choice.

The fetus is not a person in being.

The US definition of abortion as not murder is not accepted here my be or many.

You really do need to work on your grammer.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind telling me where you live. Remember that abortion is only totally banned in seven nations--do you live in one of them?

And wouldn’t be even if we lived in the US. So dont bother with it.

Sure it would. Abortion is not murder under US law.

So it is crucial to the discussion.

No it isn't. Stay on point.

 

[AllieBaba2012]

Nope.

Realize that people who stand for the legalization of the butchery of children, based on *enlightenment* *mercy* *liberty* *human rights* in truth...

Want to deny education and enlightenment to those women and girls seeking abortions, by withholding important information from them (like the link between abortion and PTSD, like adoption and counseling resources that may not toe the PP line, like MEDICAL INFORMATION about the TRUE risk of abortion)...

Have no mercy whatever for the women and children who come in battered, bruised, at the behest of other people, or for young girls who come in who are almost always pregnant by ADULT MALES in their circle of acquaintance. PP's stance is that if the girls are getting an abortion, then things are great. Abortion is GOOD for you! And if your uncle gets you pregnant and you get an abortion, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL ANYONE! And they certainly have no mercy for the babies that get pierced, scalded, dismembered. At ALL stages of development.

Have no problem with declaring that babies aren't "human" and therefore aren't eligible for "human rights"..so it's okay to kill and torture them. Human rights ONLY apply to adult men and women of their personal acquaintance, they aren't for the rabble, like the 13 year old girls who get abortions with a smile, or the 8 month old *fetuses* that might be imperfect anyway, and most CERTAINLY will be criminals, or at the very best abused (cuz we all know, every woman who gets an abortion would ABUSE that baby if it was born. We're PROTECTING babies. That also shows you exactly what they think of the women they claim to care so much about).

I've worked in human services all my adult life, and I've debated this issue all my adult life. Scratch a pro-abortionist, reveal an eugenist.

And the so-called Christian ones are the worst. They will lay waste to God's word, they will spit on fellow believers, all the while claiming to be walking with God. I promise you, God NEVER meant for us to support the abortion industry, or throw babies away like trash.

But then God never meant for us to teach our children that we expect them to have sex, either.

 

[Archivist]

I am on point. Just because you don't have a firm grasp of debate doesn't mean I'm in the wrong.

First, I do have a firm grasp of debate, having coached high school speech and debate for almost 30 years and having taken teams to NCFL finals 13 times.

Second, the topic of this thread was made ver clear in the OP:

"Exactly how does supporting the right of choice make one "Pro-Abortion"?

If I tell someone that I support their right to help choose the next president of the US, does that make me "Pro-Obama" since that could be their potential choice, or am I simply "Pro-Republican Democracy"?

If I tell someone that I support their right to decide what they want for dinner, does that make me "Pro-Obesity" since their choice could include a fast-food burger and fries?

So, how can some justify the use of the term "Pro-Abortion" to describe those who are not in any way advocating abortion?"

This thread is not about whether abortion is murder or manslaughter (your post #15) or whether abortion is genocide (your post #30) or post-tramatic stress disorder (your post #31) or the rules of critical thinking (your post #38). Stay on topic.

This entire argumentis largely opinion, and mine is as valid as yours. Probably more valid, since it's based upon Scripture, science, and collected data.

The argument--according to the OP--is "exactly how does supporting the right of choice make one "Pro-Abortion"?" So specifically, inlight of the examples I gave, how can you justify the use of the term "Pro-Abortion" to describe those who are not in any way advocating abortion?

It's a false analagy, a false premise, and a logical fallacy.

Yes, you said that before. In your post #27 you specifically said "BTW, your analogy between democrats and Nazis and pro-abortionists and pro-choice is a false premise."

BTW, I never said anything regarding an analogy between "democrats and Nazis." I specifically said "Pro-Democracy and "Pro-Nazi". Those are two very different things. It would help if you would take the time to read what is written.

Do you know what a logical fallacy is?

Yes I do.

In debate, you cannot make an argument using logical fallacy. Logical fallacies are the nemesis of critical thinking.

And in debate you cannot simply claim that something is a logical fallacy without offering analysis proof. Simply saying that something is "a false premise" is insufficent. You claimed logical fallacy, now prove it.

 

[Archivist]

I think, maybe, what he's getting at in a roundabout way, is that pro-choice = pro-abortion, then democrat=nazi????

It was never stated (except by you) that the democrats = the nazis. Perhaps you should take the time to actually read what was written.

 

[Archivist]

Yes I think what he is getting at is a false analagy, a false premise, and a logical fallacy

Still waiting for any proof. BTW, if you are saying that I have set up a logical fallacy, why did you agree (in your post #8) with the example that I gave?

He is happy to propose a choice for the mother but inspite of the unborn child who cannot make such a choice... so is he actually pro-chocie at all?

Again, the fetus is not a person in being.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Archivist,

First, the Nazi Party is not necessarily anti-democracy.

Whatever.

But Pro-Choice is specifically used in context of abortion, not paedophilla.

But both are unacceptable.

A potential human being.

No its human being, it is a human being in development, we can observe that. If you are going to claim unreality prove to me the woman is a fully grown human being.

So I will repeat the point, you are incorrect as you are only using the choice for those who can choose, the unborn baby has no choice.​

The fetus is not a person in being.

So the unborn baby has no choice.

You really do need to work on your grammer.

So dont bother with the US laws.
　

No it isn't. Stay on point.

So as its on point there is no problem.

 

[Archivist]

But both are unacceptable.

And I would agree that were I a woman abortion would not be my choice unless my life or health were at risk or I was a victim of rape or incest. However that decision needs to be left to the pregnant woman.

No its human being, it is a human being in development, we can observe that.

The fetus is a potential human being, but not a person in being until it is born. Genesis 2:7 "the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Note taht Adam did not become a living being until after after he took is first breath.

If you are going to claim unreality prove to me the woman is a fully grown human being.

She is breathing.

So I will repeat the point, you are incorrect as you are only using the choice for those who can choose, the unborn baby has no choice.

Again, the fetus is not a person in being.

So dont bother with the US laws.

I'm still waiting to find out where you reside. I can't address the laws of your countyry unless you tell me. Until then I will rely on the laws of the nation where I reside.
　

So as its on point there is no problem.

No, this thread is limited to the misuse of the term Pro-Abortion.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Archivist,

Still waiting for any proof.

I am still waiting for some proof from you.

Again, the fetus is not a person in being.

Again the unborn child is a human being in development, just as the child and adolescent are. One can observe it develop from zygote to adult.

 

[Archivist]

I am still waiting for some proof from you.

Already done. In fact, in your post #8 you agreed with one of the examples I provided.

Again the unborn child is a human being in development, just as the child and adolescent are. One can observe it develop from zygote to adult.

A potential human being. But, again, that isn't the point of this thread. We are specifically discussing the misuse of the term Pro-Abortion.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Archivist,

And I would agree that were I a woman

let me stop you there, thats just your opinion, I have met people with paedophile tendencies who don’t see anything wrong with paedophilia, and compared with terminating a life of the unborn I cant think of anything more vile.

The fetus

Let stop you there. There is no such description of the unborn child in the Bible so if you wish to use that term of human development dont quote the Bible. Quote the Bible for what its ays and not fopr what you are making up.

Genesis 2:7 "the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Note taht Adam did not become a living being until after after he took is first breath.

That says God formed the man, it doesn’t say He formed the foetus, futhermore that is creation by God, you are not the creator! And Psalm 139 and Jeremiah 1 say God knows people in the womb.
　

She is breathing.

so is my pet cat. So do you consider my pet cat a woman?
​

Again, the fetus is not a person in being.

Two things, firstly again of course it is, and secondly even it weren’t it still doesn’t have the choice. So lets start with the second point does it have the choice? Yes or no.

.
​

I'm still waiting to find out where you reside.

So as there are people from all countries on this forum dont insist that the US is the only law or even the correct one.

Pro-life is committed to getting the law changed, its starts with education and we are educating our children in the observable truth that pro -choice abortion is murder.
One cant loves ones neighbour by killing ones neighbour. The parable of the good Samaritan highlighted that those who were not considered neighbours by the audience were the ones who Jesus included. And Jesus inlcudes the unborn baby, God

Psalm 139 "13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

 

[mdancin4theLord]

Already done. In fact, in your post #8 you agreed with one of the examples I provided.



A potential human being. But, again, that isn't the point of this thread. We are specifically discussing the misuse of the term Pro-Abortion.

I beleive it has been proven.
I posted a reply from Randy Alcorn from his book.

I noticed you did not comment on it.

There is nothing potential about a toddler.......or a teenager becoming an adult. They are all alive and have the right to life...even if they are not intellectually equal to that of an adult. So with the life in the womb.....there is nothing potential about the fact it is also human and alive. Abortion ends the life in the womb.

In order for you to stand on pro-choice....this means approving abortion for woman to kill. You want it legal to allow choice. How can you say this is not pro-abortion?

 

[Archivist]

I have met people with paedophile tendencies who don’t see anything wrong with paedophilia

Sad, but that has nothing to do with taking a pro-choice position regarding the issue of abortion.

Let stop you there. There is no such description of the unborn child in the Bible so if you wish to use that term of human development dont quote the Bible. Quote the Bible for what its ays and not fopr what you are making up.

I'm am not making anything up. I am simply noting what Scripture says regarding the breath of life. There are similiar words in Ezeikel 37: " And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived..."

That says God formed the man, it doesn’t say He formed the foetus

So the fetus isn't man?

futhermore that is creation by God, you are not the creator!

I never claimed to be.

And Psalm 139 and Jeremiah 1 say God knows people in the womb.

A verse that has nothing to do with abortion that you have quoted against abortion.

so is my pet cat. So do you consider my pet cat a woman?

No, because your pet cat isn't human. Perhaps you haven't noticed but there is a difference between a woman and a cat.

Two things, firstly again of course it is, and secondly even it weren’t it still doesn’t have the choice. So lets start with the second point does it have the choice? Yes or no.

The fetus is not a person in being. The pregnant woman is a person in being. During the first trimester, at least in the US, the choice rests with the pregnant woman.

So as there are people from all countries on this forum dont insist that the US is the only law or even the correct one.

I have never "insisted" that US law is the "only law". I have said that since I live in the US and since I know US law that is what I will reference. I do not have the time to address the laws of the approximately 196 countries in the world. BTW, I'm still waiting for you to identify what country you are from.

Pro-life is committed to getting the law changed, its starts with education and we are educating our children in the observable truth that pro -choice abortion is murder.

Murder in your opinion. Not according to the definition of murder.

One cant loves ones neighbour by killing ones neighbour. The parable of the good Samaritan highlighted that those who were not considered neighbours by the audience were the ones who Jesus included.

And I'm not planning on killing anybody.

Psalm 139 "13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

Interesting. When I quote Scriture you accuse me of trying to be the creator, but when you quote Scripture that has nothing to do with abortion that is somehow acceptable.

Now, could you please get back on the topic of thsi thread, which is the improper use of the term Pro-Abortion.

 

[AllieBaba2012]

It was never stated (except by you) that the democrats = the nazis. Perhaps you should take the time to actually read what was written.

I never said democrats were nazis.

That's it for me. It's obvious you have some cognitive difficulties, so I won't bother you any more. Good luck.

 

[Archivist]

I beleive it has been proven.
I posted a reply from Randy Alcorn from his book.

I noticed you did not comment on it.

I didn't comment because I considered it to be off topic for thsi thread, which is specifically addressing the use of the term Pro-Abortion.

In order for you to stand on pro-choice....this means approving abortion for woman to kill. You want it legal to allow choice. How can you say this is not pro-abortion?

Then please address the questions that I asked in the OP:

Exactly how does supporting the right of choice make one "Pro-Abortion"?

If I tell someone that I support their right to help choose the next president of the US, does that make me "Pro-Obama" since that could be their potential choice, or am I simply "Pro-Democracy"?

If I tell someone that I support their right to decide what they want for dinner, does that make me "Pro-Obesity" since their choice could include a fast-food burger and fries?

So, how can some justify the use of the term "Pro-Abortion" to describe those who are not in any way advocating abortion?

Remember that PRO means for or infavor of. "Pro-Abortion" would mean that you advocate ending every pregnacy with abortion. Remember that there are many who consider themselves "Pro-Choice" who do not favor abortion.

 

[Archivist]

I never said democrats were nazis.

Sure you did, in your post #39: "I think, maybe, what he's getting at in a roundabout way, is that pro-choice = pro-abortion, then democrat=nazi????"

That's it for me. It's obvious you have some cognitive difficulties, so I won't bother you any more. Good luck.

Let's see, you were the one who said that "that pro-choice people are typically also pro-abortion. You will find they all have a point where they will encourage abortion." You were the one who said that I said "democrat=nazi" when I never said any such thing. Now you are accusing me of "cognitive difficulties". I don't think so.

 

[AllieBaba2012]

Sure you did, in your post #39: "I think, maybe, what he's getting at in a roundabout way, is that pro-choice = pro-abortion, then democrat=nazi????"



Let's see, you were the one who said that "that pro-choice people are typically also pro-abortion. You will find they all have a point where they will encourage abortion." You were the one who said that I said "democrat=nazi" when I never said any such thing. Now you are accusing me of "cognitive difficulties". I don't think so.

I do. I never said democrat = nazi, you did. I was referencing YOU, you poor thing.

But I think you really are confused so I won't take it personally.

 

[Archivist]

I do. I never said democrat = nazi, you did. I was referencing YOU, you poor thing.

Again, I never said "Democrat = Nazi. What I said (my post #35) was "Then anyone who is pro-democracy is also pro-Nazi according to your reasoning."

Democrat and Democracy are two different things.

But I think you really are confused so I won't take it personally.

I'm not the one who is confused.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Archivist,

Sad, but that has nothing to do with taking a pro-choice position regarding the issue of abortion.

Sad, because the pro-choice position is at least as sad, in one a child gets sexually abused and in the other an unborn baby gets killed.
​

I'm am not making anything up.

Yes you are, there is no mention of foetus in the Bible.

I am simply noting what Scripture says regarding the breath of life.

but I note that too, God created humankind and breathed life into it, He also knows and forms people in the womb, the point being you aren’t God and neither does pro-choice abortion acknowledge God.

So the fetus isn't man?

The what isnt man? As I said, it says, God formed the man, it doesn’t say what you are saying.

I never claimed to be.[/quote[ I never said you did, my point was neither is pro-choice abortion, pro-choice abortion is humans deciding they can destroy what God is creating.

A verse that has nothing to do with abortion that you have quoted against abortion.

It has everything to do with abortion as abortion is human’s murdering the life in the womb that God is forming and knows.

No, because your pet cat isn't human.

You were asked to prove a woman is a fully grown human and you said she is breathing, as I said so is my cat, either your proof is wrong or a cat can be a fully grown human.

Perhaps you haven't noticed but there is a difference between a woman and a cat.

Well I can, it dosnt seem you can.

The fetus is not a person in being.

So yes or no? Does the unborn bay have a choice? It cant choose can it.
Put it this way, one can observe a human develop into a human being, that you don’t think a foetus is just your opinion, you cant make the world as it isn’t and expect people to agree with you.

Murder in your opinion.

Yes.

Not according to the definition of murder.

yes, according to the definition of murder.

Psalm 139 "13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.​

 

[mdancin4theLord]

Archivist,"I didn't comment because I considered it to be off topic for thsi thread, which is specifically addressing the use of the term Pro-Abortion."

It addresses the topic we are discussing.

"Then please address the questions that I asked in the OP:

Exactly how does supporting the right of choice make one "Pro-Abortion"?"

If you went to the polls to vote on abortion and there were two levers to pull. The first one pro-choice that allows a woman to kill...the second is pro-life and against abortion except to save the mothers life.....which one would you pull?

If you pull lever 1 you condone abortion enough to want it legal so that the woman who wanted to kill could. How is lever 1 pro-life?

"If I tell someone that I support their right to help choose the next president of the US, does that make me "Pro-Obama" since that could be their potential choice, or am I simply "Pro-Democracy"?"

If in doing so you kill someone in the process......then you are pro-killing.

"If I tell someone that I support their right to decide what they want for dinner, does that make me "Pro-Obesity" since their choice could include a fast-food burger and fries?"

And you think this scenario is like that of killing a living human being? LOL

"So, how can some justify the use of the term "Pro-Abortion" to describe those who are not in any way advocating abortion?'

It is what it is. If you want abortion legal.....you knowing know your stance will kill a living human being. I must not bother you that much. Right?

Does abortion bother you? If it does then why do you support women doing it? Why do you try to shrug off the pro-abortion lable...if there is nothing wrong with abortion? LOL

"Remember that PRO means for or infavor of. "Pro-Abortion" would mean that you advocate ending every pregnacy with abortion. Remember that there are many who consider themselves "Pro-Choice" who do not favor abortion."

Remember......you want killing to be an option. You are pro-choice abortion....if you were morally against it......you would be pro-life.

Why not embrace the title.......pro-abortion?

You do not stand up for the lives in the womb who will, who could be slaughtered. You are not pro-life....not remotely close.

 

[AllieBaba2012]

Again, I never said "Democrat = Nazi. What I said (my post #35) was "Then anyone who is pro-democracy is also pro-Nazi according to your reasoning."

That is a logical fallacy, and not my reasoning at all. The CONNECTION between the two is the fallacy, and you are the one who is saying "You like donuts, therefore believe that bread is fattening". I'm sorry you are incapable of understanding.

Democrat and Democracy are two different things.

Huh? where'd that come from?



I'm not the one who is confused.

Oh, I beg to differ.