Priest accused of causing "mental conflict" by preaching Catholic doctrine; gay...

ThePilgrim · Apr 6, 2013

MKJ said:
Not at all.

But ideas, and actions based on them, have an order. The idea that homosexual activity is a bad thing is dependent on a lot of other ideas about marriage, sexuality, sex roles, and so on.

If you know someone does not share those ideas, or understand them, you cannot present the issue in the same way you would if they did. And if you are in a position where you are responsible to help someone who explicitly does not agree with those underlying ideas, you may have to take a different approach than you would with someone who did.

That does not mean saying something that is untrue, or that you would have to refrain from saying something challenging. It is just a matter of considering what thoughts that person will be able to use to help him at that time, perhaps which ones will help him come to a place where he can see the bigger picture eventually, or that will take the pressure off the situation, or whatever.

Anyway, I dont tend to think that what these students describe really falls outside of what would be normally expected. Even non-religious students would, I think, expect to be told that the CC does not accept such relationships if they approached a priest about it.

He had a two-year, pastoral relationship with a Catholic student who was an altar server and who was considering seminary. The student, as a Catholic, almost certainly already knew what the Catholic Church teaches about homosexual activity.

In one of the articles on this, the student mentions that the priest even knew that he was gay for those two years, and treated him with kindness and respect, but that he was upset when the priest objected to him having begun an actual, physical relationship, since the priest counseled him not to continue with the physical relationship.

Given that context, it's hard to imagine how the priest could have acted otherwise. Really, it's hard to imagine that the priest would have not told him the same thing if it were a heterosexual dating relationship. It would be surprising if the student wasn't aware that the Catholic Church opposes all sexual activity outside of marriage. If he was unaware that Catholics are against premarital sex, it's certainly appropriate for the priest to let him know that.

What makes it even stranger is the fact that he somehow thought that this relationship would be compatible with a priestly vocation in the Catholic Church. Even the most unreligious people I know are aware that Catholic priests are celibate.

Is it really plausible that this student, who reads a lot and was very actively involved in the Church, was unaware of the Catholic discipline of priestly celibacy, and the Catholic teachings on homosexual activity, premarital sex, and abortion?

If, by the student's own admission, the priest treated him with respect while knowing about his SSA for two years, then it's hard to see this as anything other than an attempt to punish the priest for refusing to teach other than what he is duty-bound to teach.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Michie · Apr 6, 2013

ThePilgrim said:
He had a two-year, pastoral relationship with a Catholic student who was an altar server and who was considering seminary. The student, as a Catholic, almost certainly already knew what the Catholic Church teaches about homosexual activity.

In one of the articles on this, the student mentions that the priest even knew that he was gay for those two years, and treated him with kindness and respect, but that he was upset when the priest objected to him having begun an actual, physical relationship, since the priest counseled him not to continue with the physical relationship.

Given that context, it's hard to imagine how the priest could have acted otherwise. Really, it's hard to imagine that the priest would have not told him the same thing if it were a heterosexual dating relationship. It would be surprising if the student wasn't aware that the Catholic Church opposes all sexual activity outside of marriage. If he was unaware that Catholics are against premarital sex, it's certainly appropriate for the priest to let him know that.

What makes it even stranger is the fact that he somehow thought that this relationship would be compatible with a priestly vocation in the Catholic Church. Even the most unreligious people I know are aware that Catholic priests are celibate.

Is it really plausible that this student, who reads a lot and was very actively involved in the Church, was unaware of the Catholic discipline of priestly celibacy, and the Catholic teachings on homosexual activity, premarital sex, and abortion?

If, by the student's own admission, the priest treated him with respect while knowing about his SSA for two years, then it's hard to see this as anything other than an attempt to punish the priest for refusing to teach other than what he is duty-bound to teach.

In Christ,
Fr. John

*Takes a deep breath* You are a breath of fresh air here in OBOB. A rare commodity. The trend is playing devil's advocate & splitting hairs 99.9% of the time. Thank you.

Chany · Apr 6, 2013

Michie said:
*Takes a deep breath* You are a breath of fresh air here in OBOB. A rare commodity. The trend is playing devil's advocate & splitting hairs 99.9% of the time. Thank you.

Am I not fresh enough for you, Michie?

Michie · Apr 6, 2013

Chany said:
Am I not fresh enough for you, Michie?

I do enjoy your posts Chany.

MKJ · Apr 6, 2013

ThePilgrim said:
He had a two-year, pastoral relationship with a Catholic student who was an altar server and who was considering seminary. The student, as a Catholic, almost certainly already knew what the Catholic Church teaches about homosexual activity.

In one of the articles on this, the student mentions that the priest even knew that he was gay for those two years, and treated him with kindness and respect, but that he was upset when the priest objected to him having begun an actual, physical relationship, since the priest counseled him not to continue with the physical relationship.

Given that context, it's hard to imagine how the priest could have acted otherwise. Really, it's hard to imagine that the priest would have not told him the same thing if it were a heterosexual dating relationship. It would be surprising if the student wasn't aware that the Catholic Church opposes all sexual activity outside of marriage. If he was unaware that Catholics are against premarital sex, it's certainly appropriate for the priest to let him know that.

What makes it even stranger is the fact that he somehow thought that this relationship would be compatible with a priestly vocation in the Catholic Church. Even the most unreligious people I know are aware that Catholic priests are celibate.

Is it really plausible that this student, who reads a lot and was very actively involved in the Church, was unaware of the Catholic discipline of priestly celibacy, and the Catholic teachings on homosexual activity, premarital sex, and abortion?

If, by the student's own admission, the priest treated him with respect while knowing about his SSA for two years, then it's hard to see this as anything other than an attempt to punish the priest for refusing to teach other than what he is duty-bound to teach.

In Christ,
Fr. John

I did not suggest that any of these things that happened in this instance were wrong or implausible, and I do not think ebia did either - he at most suggested that maybe the priest may not have handled the issue sensitively. I think you are reading what you imagine we are saying into our posts. Since you dont know us, I have to wonder on what basis.

There has been something of a side-related discussion here about the role of a chaplain as opposed to that of a parish priest, which was what my post that you commented on was talking about, and it was partly what ebia was talking about too - that is, the general principles involved with that kind of job as opposed to regular parish work.

In fact I have said several times, including in posts responding to you, that I do not see how what is reported to have happend with this particular student and priest could be a problem. I have even in previous posts made the very same comment you have here that it is strange that the student did not already know what the Catholic teaching on this issue is, and that it would be doing him no favours to keep him in the dark.

So I am really starting to wonder why you seem so keen to have me saying things I have never said in this discussion.

Tallguy88 · Apr 6, 2013

ThePilgrim said:
It would be one thing if they were asking for the priest's removal, not on the basis of the content of his faith, but in his manner of conveying them. If he had yelled at the student, called him names, used anti-gay slurs, disclosed private confessions to others, or otherwise behaved inappropriately, those could all be grounds for asking for his removal.

However, it's very clear from all articles on the subject that what they are objecting to is the content of the chaplain's faith. They are objecting to his adhering to what his Church teaches on homosexual actions and abortion. That being the case, no chaplain in that position could, in good conscience, act otherwise.

In Christ,
Fr. John

I think this is the biggest issue. They don't like Catholic teaching and are trying to shoot the messenger, regardless of his presentation.

Father bless...

eastcoast_bsc · Apr 6, 2013

Genersis said:
That's not just it.

Students mobilize to remove priest - The GW Hatchet

Sounds like one he could be one of those judging threatening and name calling(with biblical backing, so it's all ok, right?) types to me.
But meh, considering these are the only two articles I've found on the subject, perhaps my current position is unfounded.

Sound like two privileged brats that think the world revolves around them. If they don't agree with catholic teaching maybe they should attend a different church.

eastcoast_bsc · Apr 6, 2013

Michie said:
I read the student newspaper Generis. Seriously?

What did these kids expect? A university where everyone agrees & is liberal? A priest that does not teach what the faith believes? Again, they need to grow a pair & get off their poor me pedestals.

Michie true story here. A few years back during a layoff I went back to finish a degree. In the school newspaper a young girl does a sex column. That particular week she discussed the etiquette of oral sex.

So I clicked on the link that invited responses and asked her if her parents were proud of her writing about performing oral sex on boys.

I received an e-mail stating they needed my full name in order to post my response.

I declined knowing that the PC police would have come howling.

Point is that colleges are NOT about being open and inclusive. They are about adhering to a clear politically correct orthodoxy and if one dares to stray, they will do what they are attempting to do to the priest in the original post.

Tallguy88 · Apr 6, 2013

eastcoast_bsc said:
Sound like two privileged brats that think the world revolves around them. If they don't agree with catholic teaching maybe they should attend a different church.

They did. One of them is now an Old Catholic priest.

eastcoast_bsc · Apr 7, 2013

I was snooping around GWU website and I found the Multicultural center's website where they list the staff. This I found odd. Doesn't there seem to be a conflict of interests. he is

Associate Director for Inclusion Initiatives, directing the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Resource Center and overseeing Religious Life

Why would they merge these two roles ?

Associate Director:
Timothy Kane
I am the Associate Director for Inclusion Initiatives, directing the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Resource Center and overseeing Religious Life. In these roles, Timothy upholds GW’s commitment to recognize, celebrate and support diversity and inclusion regarding sexual orientation, gender identity/expression and religious communities. Timothy has also directed GW’s Office of Community Service where he developed programs for students, staff, faculty and alumni focused on civic engagement and public service. Most noted, Timothy led the now successful year-long service campaign where students committed to achieving 100,000 hours of volunteer time in exchange for the First Lady, Michelle Obama, to speak at the University’s commencement in May, 2010.

Michie · Apr 7, 2013

eastcoast_bsc said:
Michie true story here. A few years back during a layoff I went back to finish a degree. In the school newspaper a young girl does a sex column. That particular week she discussed the etiquette of oral sex.

So I clicked on the link that invited responses and asked her if her parents were proud of her writing about performing oral sex on boys.

I received an e-mail stating they needed my full name in order to post my response.

I declined knowing that the PC police would have come howling.

Point is that colleges are NOT about being open and inclusive. They are about adhering to a clear politically correct orthodoxy and if one dares to stray, they will do what they are attempting to do to the priest in the original post.

The hypocrisy is astounding & even more so because these people cannot even see it. Just doing a bit of research on these two students speaks for itself. This has been a long time coming. I'm sure this did not surprise the priest in the slightest.

Student newspapers love to try to rock the boat, always have. I'm sure they were sorely disappointed when you did not go for the bait.

eastcoast_bsc · Apr 7, 2013

Michie said:
The hypocrisy is astounding & even more so because these people cannot even see it. Just doing a bit of research on these two students speaks for itself. This has been a long time coming. I'm sure this did not surprise the priest in the slightest.

Student newspapers love to try to rock the boat, always have. I'm sure they were sorely disappointed when you did not go for the bait.

Exactly. I wasn't going to bite. They probably thought I was some young naive kid. No flies on me, and if there are, they are paying rent.

GNJ · Apr 7, 2013

JimR-OCDS said:
Gee that's too bad, but the priest shouldn't be forced to teach against what the Church teaches.

So much for freedom of speech among these gay people.

It really depends on how hard he's going with it. I'm gay, and I can take the usual "it's a sin" etcetera, I have no problem with a priest or a parishioner preaching, that, but if it becomes hateful or plain abusive is where I start to see problems. My laptop won't let me read the article in full so I don't know the story, but this priest may well be crossing the line between expressing the teachings of the Church and spewing hate against homosexuals, which is very much against the views of the Church.

Michie · Apr 7, 2013

GNJ said:
It really depends on how hard he's going with it. I'm gay, and I can take the usual "it's a sin" etcetera, I have no problem with a priest or a parishioner preaching, that, but if it becomes hateful or plain abusive is where I start to see problems. My laptop won't let me read the article in full so I don't know the story, but this priest may well be crossing the line between expressing the teachings of the Church and spewing hate against homosexuals, which is very much against the views of the Church.

No, the student himself said he has always been treated respectfully by this priest. This has been a long time coming. Both students are gay activists. They are not going to be happy till the RCC changes their stance regardless of what they say about not trying to change it.

It's just that the Faith has caused them all this mental conflict.

ebia · Apr 7, 2013

MKJ said:
They are different jobs. That is like saying the expectations of a parish priest are the same as one who is a teacher, or scientist, or administrator, or missionary.

A parish priest is dealing mainly with people who are of his own faith, and his job is to provide the sacraments, make sure the parish is managed properly, and to teach the faith.

The job of a chaplain is rather different, firstly because the people the chaplain are responsible includes many people who are not of his own religion, secondly because much of the work is pastoral care, thirdly because the population is a group with more particular needs (young, away from family, and so on.) You cannot really serve people in the same way under those circumstances.

And fourthly, because a chaplain is authorised by the institution he serves as well as the church that sends him.

ebia · Apr 7, 2013

ThePilgrim said:
You said that, as a chaplain, he should avoid commenting on the homosexuality itself.

i suggested that might be one option to refer the conversation about sexuality elsewhere.

Being a chaplain involves setting aside black and white answers. Someone who can't do that is unsuited to counceling , which is rarely about telling people things.

ebia · Apr 7, 2013

ThePilgrim said:
It would be one thing if they were asking for the priest's removal, not on the basis of the content of his faith, but in his manner of conveying them. If he had yelled at the student, called him names, used anti-gay slurs, disclosed private confessions to others, or otherwise behaved inappropriately, those could all be grounds for asking for his removal.

However, it's very clear from all articles on the subject that what they are objecting to is the content of the chaplain's faith. They are objecting to his adhering to what his Church teaches on homosexual actions and abortion. That being the case, no chaplain in that position could, in good conscience, act otherwise.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Their opinion on the content on his faith, however, is almost certainly shaped by the way he expresses it.

Fantine · Apr 7, 2013

I have written lots of letters to the editor in my day, and I have also worked for newspapers. It is a universal policy for newspapers to ask for your name and address and verify that you are who you are, and college newspapers, run by students aspiring to be journalists would follow that policy.

Now that there are online-only newspapers, some follow an 'anonymous' policy, and I might post a comment every few weeks, usually anonymously (the politically correct police out here are arch conservatives, and even worse, they all own guns).

MKJ · Apr 7, 2013

Fantine said:
I have written lots of letters to the editor in my day, and I have also worked for newspapers. It is a universal policy for newspapers to ask for your name and address and verify that you are who you are, and college newspapers, run by students aspiring to be journalists would follow that policy.

Now that there are online-only newspapers, some follow an 'anonymous' policy, and I might post a comment every few weeks, usually anonymously (the politically correct police out here are arch conservatives, and even worse, they all own guns).

Yes - typically better quality papers require people to register under their own names to post comments.

It is about people responding taking responsibility for their comments.

It also tends to create more civility - people often refrain from more nasty and questionable comments when people know their real names.

Michie · Apr 16, 2013

Cardinal Wuerl Ramps Up Support for George Washington Chaplain

During an April 14 mass with George Washington University students, Washington's cardinal commended chaplain Father Greg Shaffer.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/cardinal-wuerl-ramps-up-support-for-george-washington-chaplain/

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