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Priest accused of causing "mental conflict" by preaching Catholic doctrine; gay...

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Michie, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    Repelling and alienating people are not effective ways to "facilitate healing."

    When I look at people who are involved with ministry, it often seems as if those who think they can facilitate healing by repelling and alienating people are often overly controlling and self-righteous.

    I think that they make themselves feel better by driving people away by reading them the riot act--they've done their officious duty. They've stood up for truth, justice and the narrow-gate-to-heaven way. They can play the martyr, even, because their technique didn't work.

    Rather than learn what is more effective, they can pat themselves on the back (which feeds into their own addiction to be the voices of morality).
     
  2. KatherineS

    KatherineS Well-Known Member

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    Yes, well obviously the chaplain failed in being pastoral.
     
  3. Needing_Grace

    Needing_Grace Chief of Sinners

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    Pastoral as in pastoral. Present the truth in a way that gives them the law's requirements and the Gospel's provisions. Present the truth in a way that makes a specific issue (homosexuality) a manifestation of the much larger issue that affects everyone (concupiscence), nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't make anyone any different than anyone else (except in vocation...no marriage, no religious vocation...there's no way to soften the blow of that one). Present the truth that it's the way one must struggle with original sin in their own way. Present the truth at that it stinks, yes, but it stinks for everyone. Learn to live with your own stink because everyone else's stink is worse for you. Tell the story about the guy who Jesus offered to give another cross...any one he wanted...and so he went in to a room full of crosses of all sizes...some seemed like Redwoods...and he went straight for the smallest, lightest looking cross in the room only to be told it was the one he's been carrying all along...

    Using the heady language of the CCC may be giving the "absolute truth" but the language is off-putting for people not well versed in the philosophical tradition Catholicism is steeped in.

    BTW, being the snot I am, I would answer the cross story by saying, I'd asked to weigh a few first, sometimes the larger ones look scary bad but they're like carrying Styrofoam while the smaller ones that look easy can seem to be made of neutron star material.
     
  4. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    Sounds like you are knocking the Apostles... who didnt apologize, cajole, conform, or beg folks to follow them.
    Priests arent here to spread the good feelings so much as stand up for truth. Nothing more or less.
    According to the priest who died and returned - who would have been judged to hell - he was doing more of the touchy feely stuff to 'bring ppl back each week - so they gave money...'
    But - Jesus wasnt very touchy feely about the the way he was teaching...sans the important teachings about hell, guilt and sin.

    'God is love, God is sunshine, God will forgive you....' yadda yadda.

    Ok, so God is love, He forgives - but He also told folks who were sinners - to go and sin No More.'
    He wasnt requesting, He wasnt begging, He was stating to sin no more.

    The hard dose of reality is this - we wont be forgiven by excusing our behavior - something the priest said at judgment - you give no rebuttals, no excuses - you stand judged - period.

    Its not a trial with a jury where you speak your mind - it's done.
    Folks who reject the message do it for one reason - they simply Do Not Like The Message - and unless or until they 'want' God enough to give up their sins - they are not going to listen to it or abide by it.

    Quite frankly, its not about the employment of the message - its always going to 'BE' the message. Its not easy - its not agreeable - and its unwanted.

    The priest has nothing to do with it - the world hates what Jesus taught and wants - it did in His time - it still does.

    I have said many times in this forum - You must make the choice between what this world offers [including the temporary consolations and group think acceptance of certain behaviors considered sin before the Great judge - or you accept His teachings and step down from promoting them, excusing them or accepting them.

    It is in fact - black and white.
     
  5. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    You have to walk in someone's shoes to say if it is easy or not.

    There are many crosses and depending on the person who is made to carry their cross whether it is easy or not - is depending on their willingness to accept grace from God.

    If someone carries a chip on their shoulders - its makes it very difficult. If they willingly try and look to God - the Lord grants them strength that is heroic..

    This includes quadriplegics, disabled, blind, deaf - etc etc etc.

    No one can say theirs is the heaviest - only One can say They had the heaviest - which was Christ Who carried His for all sins.
     
  6. Needing_Grace

    Needing_Grace Chief of Sinners

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    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.
    Law AND Gospel.

    Get it yet? You demand Law ONLY. You imply that I demand Gospel only.

    I say give BOTH. Preach the law, correctly and completely, which means not singling out homosexuality as the über sin but as a manifestation of the thing called sin, until the conscience is terrorized, but immediately and without delay, present the saving good news of Jesus' provision for our sin. To do otherwise leads to despair and people going away mad (or sad) and without the whole truth of what they need to know.

    But then again, I don't read a similar soteriology to what I understand. Yours seems to be salvation solely on our own efforts and our works, like slaves working to earn the affections of their angry master. I see a loving Father who loves the sinner and provides for every need, including what is needed for salvation (which doesn't deny the necessity of cooperation, but salvation is not earned, it's 100% gift).
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  7. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Washington D.C., Apr 5, 2013 / 06:10 pm (CNA/EWTN News).-
    Catholics rally behind embattled chaplain at George Washington University...
     
  8. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    I can tell you havent read anything i wrote.

    The priest was judged to hell for not speaking enough about hell.
     
  9. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    Thanks Michie...

    As i said - it is not the way someone preaches - it is 'if' the recipient 'wants' to receive it. Most dont want or like it. Therefore - they choose the world.
     
  10. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    I can't believe the projecting & judging going on here as if some were actually privy to this priest's words & actions.

    This priest is not going to have anything to worry about.
     
  11. Needing_Grace

    Needing_Grace Chief of Sinners

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    So, he was about nether the law's condemnation nor the Gospel's salvation (you really can't separate the two in Christianity).

    Could I also say that you've not read my post?

    You need to give demands of God's Law, full force and without adjectives, which we all violate. We all deserve hell, without exception. This is the message of the law's condemnation of sinners that cannot go unsaid because unless you've done this, the Gospel's good news of salvation by grace through faith and hope in Christ with its resulting charity will mean NOTHING (the three Theological Virtues altogether).

    It's a complete message, not half a message.

    So, of course this priest would have gone to hell. He was unfaithful in his ministry and his vocation.

    I'm certain that hellfire and brimstone preachers that fail to present the saving message of Christ's Gospel to their charges will also find themselves in a similar bind.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  12. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in 1995, recognizes that, due to what we have learned about the psychology and biochemistry of the human mind, beginning with the work of Freud and Jung in the early twentieth century, it is difficult of not impossible to determine the severity of individual sins.

    While there may be a textbook definition of sin (the rule book this "chaplain" obviously goes by) there is no way that any individual can see the situation as God sees it.
    And so perhaps the chaplain's "one size fits all blanket condemnations" do not take into account the individual circumstances of the persons being counseled.

    I know I've brought up this case before. A lady I know was widowed young and remarried a divorced Baptist who had no interest in wading through reams of Catholic red tape to get married. She had a third child with him and they were together more than thirty years (during which time the husband, about 15 years older than his wife, became very ill...) She made the mistake of telling a priest who was somewhat like this college chaplain her situation. He wouldn't give her Communion anymore. She left the parish and went to a different one, with a younger priest with a different approach. Three years later her husband became Catholic and now they all go to church together.

    Perhaps some of you think that the first priest's counsel was right....

    Leave a husband who is elderly and sick after he married you as a young widow, helped you raise your children from your first marriage, gave you another child, and was faithful to you for thirty years....

    Anyone who thinks that's what God would advocate has a really warped view of God.

    The wiser priest recognized that there were some emotional wounds that needed healing, and perhaps a lack of understanding on the part of the husband.

    No, this has nothing to do with SSA, but the advisability of such an approach surely does.
     
  13. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for your comments.

    It seems that many think of the priest as policeman and a canonical lawyer, ready to explain and enforce the Law of God.

    Of course, we are ALL sinners and fall short of the glory of God. We ALL need salvation. A priest has many functions. Obviously his sacramental role is critical. His PASTORAL role is also crucial.

    It is indeed the priest's role to be a teacher. HOWEVER, there is a matter of priorities. The issue of same sex attraction is hardly one of the most important issues to address from the pulpit.

    Many Christians consider Catholics to be too focused on the Law and not enough on the gospel, also that Catholics are legalistic.

     
  14. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

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    The expectations between a parish priest and a school chaplain, are no different.

    In fact, the Catholic Chaplain probably also works as an associate at a local parish as well as being a chaplain a the university. In my former parish, the associate was the chaplain at the local college. Another was the chaplain for the city police department.

    In both cases, he doesn't compromise Catholic teaching on abortion and sexual promiscuity. I'm sure he tells heterosexuals that sex outside of marriage is also sinful, but we don't see them protesting to have him removed over it.

    They know it's a sin. The two gay males in the OP article, deny that it's sinful and resent being told by the priest.

    Jim
     
  15. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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  16. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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  17. ThePilgrim

    ThePilgrim Veteran

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    That's silly. He's a Catholic chaplain and he should never have to avoid saying what the Catholic Church teaches on a given issue. If the student wasn't Catholic, and had different beliefs, he could make clear that he was telling him the Catholic perspective, and that the student's own Church might say something different, for the sake of clarity, but something is either true or false and he's either a Catholic chaplain or he isn't.

    In Christ,
    Fr. John
     
  18. ThePilgrim

    ThePilgrim Veteran

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    He is still bound to teach what he believes to be true. Of course, he should do it pastorally, but a chaplain in a public setting isn't a chaplain of nothing in particular and a preacher of nihilism. He is bound to be faithful to the truth and to his vocation, even in a public setting.
     
  19. ThePilgrim

    ThePilgrim Veteran

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    Exactly! That distinction should be common sense.
     
  20. ThePilgrim

    ThePilgrim Veteran

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    But there's no such thing as generic pastoral care or generic counseling. What a pastor, chaplain, or counselor says, how he counsels, and what sort of care he gives is always going to be informed by and based on a particular set of beliefs, values, and a particular world view.
     
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