Preterists 100% wrong or Futurists 100% wrong?

[Lady Goodnews]

Hi Deacon Dean,

Lady Goodnews, have you ever read Josephus' "The War of the Jews?"

Yes, I have!

Apparently you haven't, for if you would have, you would have found out that the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel, Matthew, and Mark, could not have been Titus. Titus was never recorded in history as a "desolator." And, as Matthew, Mark, and Daniel record, Titus never entered into the holy-of-holies. Only three people in recorded history ever did this. Antiochus Epiphanes, Gen. Pompey, and Pontius Pilate. Now it is true that Antiochus and Pilate both desecrated the temple, but they did not make a desolation of it. And if you would read Josephus' writings, you would also find out that the Temple was destroyed without his orders or approval. And the tower that sat beside the temple which was originally built by Zerrubabel, called Fort Antonia, was part of the temple complex. How come all of Jerusalem was not destroyed in AD 70? Fort Antonia stood for another 3 years after the temple was destroyed and until the fall of Masada in AD 73. The Roman army used Fort Antonia as a base of operations in which to bring troops and supplies from to attack Masada. So the whole of Jerusalem was not destroyed in AD 70 as preterists argue.

I don't know what Preterist argue, I argue from the scriptures, however from I know Preterist are in agreement with the scriptures, and don't deny Jesus kept his promise to his disciples, to come with angels and reward every man according to their deeds before they [the disciples] all died (Matthew 16:27,28).

If Jesus told his disciples that, how can anyone doubt he did it?

Pleas help me out here!

Did not Jesus tell His disciples:

"Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." -Mark 13:2

The temple had several buildings, Fort Antonia being one of them. How come it (Fort Antonia) being one of the temple buildings, wasn't destroyed in AD 70?

And if you prefer Luke 21:5-6:

"And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

As stated before Fort Antonia was part of the temple. How come it wasn't destroyed along with the temple in AD 70?

It is my understanding the temple was destroyed and only the wailing wall was left.

Are you saying the temple was not destroyed?

And I've read the gospels but it must have escaped me, please show me where Jesus appeared to the disciples in the clouds with great power and glory.

Jesus said to the disciples he "would" appear in the clouds with great power and glory (Matthew 24;30, Luke 21:27).

And if He did, then by His own words, the elect would be taken by His angels.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -Matt. 24:30-31

Further, what is the one HOLY place that the Jews do not have control of and is still in the hands of the Gentiles?

None, there is no holy place on the earth today, it was the temple where Jesus and the apostle taught, however it was destroyed 70AD.

Mt. Moriah! Ever heard of the Dome of the Rock?

Yes!

The Gentiles are still "trodden down" this part of Jerusalem. Fact is, the Jews still do not control Jerusalem. The Muslems control the Dome of the Rock, which sits right smack dab in the middle of Jerusalem (figure of speech). And who are Gentiles? Anyone who is not a Jew. What are the Muslems? Gentiles. Granted they desend from Abraham also, but I dare you to go and tell the Jews in Israel right now that the muslem's are their brethren. See what happens. Furthermore, Esuebius records in his work Ecclesastical History, that the few Christians that were in Jerusalem, fleed when Cestus Gallus relieved his seige of Jerusalem in AD 65, five full years before the temple was destroyed. John Gill mentions this fact in his commentary on Matthew 24:16. The Christians fleed to Petra! Jerusalem had been under seige long befrore Titus came on the scene. Titus picked up where his father and Cestus Gallus left off. His father left the army in AD 65 to return to Rome leaving his son, Titus, in charge of the Roman army.

Sorry dear, but preterism is all wrong. Jerusalem was not entirely destroyed in AD 70 as preterists thought. It wasn't entirely destroyed until AD 73, three years after the temple was destroyed.

I am basing my belief upon the scriptures, not upon Preterism, however that system clearly is the only one not denying Jesus kept his promise to his disciples thus denying his credibility.

Lady Goodnews,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Did not Jesus tell His disciples:

"Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." -Mark 13:2

The temple [#2411] had several buildings, Fort Antonia being one of them. How come it (Fort Antonia) being one of the temple buildings, wasn't destroyed in AD 70?

I also have more questions than answers. Translation is a hugh problem for me so far.

The jews made this statement in John concerning 46 years to build the "temple".

The word here is not the same word as the "temple" complex [#2411]
The question is, what did Jesus mean by the "buidings", which, it appears, wouldn't include walls or tower it seems. Thoughts?

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

John 2:20 The Jews, therefore, said, `Forty and six years was this sanctuary/naos [#3485] building, and wilt thou in three days raise it up?'

Mark 15:38 and the veil of the sanctuary/naos [#3485] was rent in two, from top to bottom,

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm
The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Secondtempleplan.jpg

According to the Talmud, the Temple had an Ezrat Nashim (Women's Court) to the east and main area to the west. The main area contained the butchering area for the sacrifices and the Mizbaeach (Outer alter) on which portions of most offerings were burned and blood was poured or dashed. an edifice contained the Ulam (antechamber), the Haiechal, and the Kodesh Kodashim (Holy of Holies. The Heichal and the Kodesh Kodashim were separated by a wall in the First Temple and two curtains in the Second Temple. The Heichal contained the Menorah, the table of Showbread and the Incense alter.
The main courtyard had thirteen gates. On the south side, beginning with the southwest corner, there were four gates: Shaar Ha'Elyoun (the Upper Gate); Shaar HaDelek (the Kindling Gate), where wood was brought in); Shaar HaBichorot (the Gate of Firstborn, where people with first-born animal offerings entered and fathers and children entered for the Pidyon HaBen ceremony); Shaar HaMayim (the Water Gate, where the Water Libation entered on Sukkot). On the north side, beginning with the northwest corner, there were four gates: Shaar Yechonyah (The Gate of Yechonyah, where kings of the Davidic line enter and Yechonyah/Yehoyachin left for the last time to captivity); Shaar HaKorban (The gate of the Offering, where priests entered with kodshei kodashim offerings); Shaar HaNashim (The Women's Gate, where women entered into the main area to perform offerings); and Shaar Hashir (The Gate of Song, where the Levites entered witht their musical instruments). On the east side was Shaar Nikanor, the Nikanor Gate between the Women's Courtyard and the main Temple Courtyard, which had two minor doorways, one on its right and one on its left. On the western wall, which was relatively unimportant, there were two gates that did not have any name.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

It is not possible that either the partial preterist view is 100% wrong or that the futurist view is 100% wrong. The Partial preterist and futurist views are not mutually exclusive. They are both Christian views which overlap in some areas.

For example, both partial preterists and futurists hold the 2nd coming to be future. Only full preterists deny that Jesus 2nd coming is yet still in the future. So partial preterists have a foot in the future, which is why they are partial.

Also, many futurists acknowledge that God visited His wrath on Jerusalem in 70 AD. This aligns with the "Day of the Lord" concept in the OT with the LORD "coming" in judgment at a certain time and place. Its just that for futurists, 70 AD wasn't THE event. There is a future, universal judgment spoken of in Isaiah 24 and elsewhere which will include the entire earth.

Where partial preterists and futurists primarily differ is 1) the amount of Scripture passages which is regarded as past or future, and 2) the emphasis of the material. The Scripture passages in question are the olivet discourse (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) and the book of Revelation. There are clear parallels between the olivet discourse and Revelation. In the olivet discourse it is very difficult to distinguish where Jesus is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD or the future end-times.

Partial preterists see most (but certainly not all) as referring to past events, and they emphasize 70 AD as fulfillment. Futurists see most of the material (but certainly not all) as referring to future events, and they emphasize these relate to the 2nd coming.


Lamorak Des Galis

 

[Lady Goodnews]

Goodnews quote. “Jesus KNEW he was coming "the days of vengeance" because he told the disciples (Luke 21:20-28).” Unquote.

But Jesus, did not know or tell them the year, month, day or Hour
Mark 13: 32. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.

There was a promise to visit His Disciples, before they could start their work throughout the cities of Israel.

You said quote. “That is incorrect!”

Here is the promise of Him doing so.

Read it carefully, I suggest you might want to read it from several different translations.

Matt 10: 23. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL, TILL THE SON OF MAN COME.

Jesus promised to visit his disciples "before" they FINISHED going over the cities of Jerusalem, "not" before they started their work, big difference.

John 16: 15. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
Jesus repeated it again in verse 19.
Verse 19. Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? 20. Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

The fulfillment of those words are there in. John 20: 18 – 31 and Luke 24: 29 – 39. Please read them.

When Jesus, rose from death many Saints, were raised Matt 27: 52 because He, is the Resurrection.
After Jesus, spent a short time with the Disciples after some 40 days in all he was lifted up Acts 1; 11.
Jesus, spoke to Paul and returned again to speak to John, many years later in Patmos prison, and told John, he would have to prophesy again and to write it all down. This was many years after the Disciples, were long dead.[/QUOTE]

That is incorrect, John 15:19,20 is the same "little while" Jesus said would occur "after" his return to the Father, read (John 7:33; 8:21; 12:35; 16:16,22).

the second coming is yet to come a filling fully in every detail that is how we can distinguish the false from the truth.

Kindest regards. PC

Which can only be determined (or denied) by what Jesus said in the scriptures and his credibility.

Kindest regards to you too.

Lady Goodnews,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Where partial preterists and futurists primarily differ is 1) the amount of Scripture passages which is regarded as past or future, and 2) the emphasis of the material. The Scripture passages in question are the olivet discourse (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) and the book of Revelation. There are clear parallels between the olivet discourse and Revelation. In the olivet discourse it is very difficult to distinguish where Jesus is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD or the future end-times.

Partial preterists see most (but certainly not all) as referring to past events, and they emphasize 70 AD as fulfillment. Futurists see most of the material (but certainly not all) as referring to future events, and they emphasize these relate to the 2nd coming.

Yes, and why christianity is in the state of confusion it is in.

Anyone ever debate with Atheists, Jews, Muslims and others on the Bible. ?

http://www.christianforums.com/f13-general-apologetics.html

One question from them draws about a 100 different views.

Not exactly what I would call being of One Mind and One Body.

Luke 21:22 "For these are the Days of Vengeance, that ALL Things which are Written may be Fulfilled.

1 Peter 4:7 But the End of ALL things is nigh at hand; therefore be sober-minded and watchful in your prayers.

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one within/without[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Yes, and why christianity is in the state of confusion it is in.

Anyone ever debate with Atheists, Jews, Muslims and others on the Bible. ?

http://www.christianforums.com/f13-general-apologetics.html

One question from them draws about a 100 different views.

Not exactly what I would call being of One Mind and One Body.

The Bible never says Christians are to be of One Opinion. Christians are of one mind and one body through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

God has chosen to work through imperfect human beings who do not have complete knowledge. Christians don't know everything, Christians aren't perfect and God even allows Christians to fail. Scripture instructs us to grow in the grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Lamorak Des Galis

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, and why christianity is in the state of confusion it is in.

Anyone ever debate with Atheists, Jews, Muslims and others on the Bible. ?

http://www.christianforums.com/f13-g...ologetics.html

One question from them draws about a 100 different views.

Not exactly what I would call being of One Mind and One Body.

Luke 21:22 "For these are the Days of Vengeance, that ALL Things which are Written may be Fulfilled.

1 Peter 4:7 But the End of ALL things is nigh at hand; therefore be sober-minded and watchful in your prayers.

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one within/without[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

The Bible never says Christians are to be of One Opinion. Christians are of one mind and one body through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

God has chosen to work through imperfect human beings who do not have complete knowledge. Christians don't know everything, Christians aren't perfect and God even allows Christians to fail. Scripture instructs us to grow in the grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Lamorak Des Galis

Oh I see. Such as gaining grace and knowledge from sites like this. I make sure I bring this up to Atheists to show them I am actually embarassed when I see something like this. WOWWY!!!!! Peace.

Are you prepared!!!!!!!!!

http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html

Rapture Index 155
Net Change -2

Updated Jul 3, 2006

Rapture Index of 85 and Below: Slow prophetic activity
Rapture Index of 85 to 110: Moderate prophetic activity
Rapture Index of 110 to 145: Heavy prophetic activity
Rapture Index above 145: Fasten your seat belts

http://www.hisremnant.org/roach/Rapture.html

Ah, THE RAPTURE,

what an intriguing subject! Scores of untold saints have wondered

with great concern, "When will it happen? Will it be in my

lifetime? Who of my loved ones will miss it and have to go

through the tribulation, and then off to an eternal hell? Or will

I myself miss it, and stand below watching the few lucky ones fly

away into the clouds when the trumpet sounds?" Hmmm...

 

[Brain Damage]

So I guess the Jews missed both His first coming and second coming. Any reason why they are still awaiting on His first coming and we aren't

Christs second coming will be to the jews his first coming , because John the baptist denied being either the messiah , Elijah or that prophet . They were looking for the two witnesses (prophets), Moses and Elijah and the messiah.

They haven't missed his second coming which to them will be his first , as the two witnesses are yet to show up , and then Messiah!

 

[ikester]

I don't know, but obviously Jesus knew some would be alive, otherwise why tell them when "they see" Judea compassed with armies to flee?




It was "the time of the end," (Matthew 24:1-3; Peter 4:7; 1 Corinthians 10:11).



The reason is irrelevant, however it cannot be denied Jesus himself connected the desolation of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple with the time of his return proven by (Luke 21:20-27; Matthew 24:1-3; 29-30), did he not?

Lady Goodnews,

John was the only disciple alive at that time....so your theory would have to claim Jesus spoke only with John concerning his return and John alone fled Judea.......


Daniel and Ezekiel give much scripture concerning the latter days....the events foretold are yet to be fulfilled...so your theory would need to rewrite some history.....


the reason is the very foundation for such judgements..Luke 19...and you cannot throw out the very words of Jesus...just to support one's own doctrine

 

[pamaris]

John was the only disciple alive at that time....so your theory would have to claim Jesus spoke only with John concerning his return and John alone fled Judea.......


Daniel and Ezekiel give much scripture concerning the latter days....the events foretold are yet to be fulfilled...so your theory would need to rewrite some history.....


the reason is the very foundation for such judgements..Luke 19...and you cannot throw out the very words of Jesus...just to support one's own doctrine

According to Foxe's book of Martyrs, Jude was alive at that time, until he was crucified at Edessa, in AD 72. So there were at least two disciples alive. Also, when Jesus said "There are some standing here...." and "This generation....." was he speaking specifically to the disciples, or to a general crowd? Some in the general crowd would certainly be alive in 70 AD (as were at least two of the disciples).

ETA: Got one more: Simon the Zealot was crucified in Britain in AD 74.

ETA: Also, James was beat to death and stoned at the age of 94. If he was not alive in 70 AD, then he would have had to have been about 55 during Jesus' ministry. Is it likely that he was younger than that, and was thus still alive in 70 AD? Likely.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Oh I see. Such as gaining grace and knowledge from sites like this.

Are you always this sarcastic? I said Scripture, not web sites.

I make sure I bring this up to Atheists to show them I am actually embarassed when I see something like this. WOWWY!!!!! Peace.

So in other words, the Atheists will be so overjoyed by the ridicule of Christianity that it will - what? - drive them closer to Jesus?

 

[Lady Goodnews]

John was the only disciple alive at that time

Proof Jesus knew they would not all die before his coming.

There's not any of the disciples alive today, so how can that prophecy be fulfilled today?

....so your theory would have to claim Jesus spoke only with John concerning his return

No I don't claim that, and Matthew 16:27,28 is not my theory but the word of God.

and John alone fled Judea.......

Not necessarily, there were probably other christians in Judea.

Do you know there is no Judea today, it was destroyed in 70AD?

How can any one flee Judea today and fulfill that part of the prophecy?

Daniel and Ezekiel give much scripture concerning the latter days....the events foretold are yet to be fulfilled...so your theory

Your calling the Bible truthes a theory does not make it so.

would need to rewrite some history.....

I am not concerned with history only with the Word of God and what it teach.

You can rely upon history if you choose, but I choose to rely upon the Bible.

the reason is the very foundation for such judgements..Luke 19

The reason for the judgment is irrelevant to me, but if you think it is important that's fine with me.

...and you cannot throw out the very words of Jesus...

What words of Jesus did I throw out?

just to support one's own doctrine

Since you brought up throwing out Jesus words to support ones own theory, that honor goes to those that read the words Jesus spoke to his disciples then throw them out, such as...

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father WITH his angels; and then He shall REWARD every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto YOU, There "be some" standing here, which shall not taste of death, till THEY see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

If you are NOT among those that throw out Jesus words do you admit Jesus told his disciples He was coming WITH his angels and REWARD every man according to there works before they all died?

Yes or No?

If you say no, please explain what he did say Matthew 16:27,28.

If you said yes, do you believe He kept his word or he made a mistake?

Thanks,


Lady Goodnews,

 

[inhisdebt]

It is not possible that either the partial preterist view is 100% wrong or that the futurist view is 100% wrong. The Partial preterist and futurist views are not mutually exclusive. They are both Christian views which overlap in some areas.

For example, both partial preterists and futurists hold the 2nd coming to be future. Only full preterists deny that Jesus 2nd coming is yet still in the future. So partial preterists have a foot in the future, which is why they are partial.

Also, many futurists acknowledge that God visited His wrath on Jerusalem in 70 AD. This aligns with the "Day of the Lord" concept in the OT with the LORD "coming" in judgment at a certain time and place. Its just that for futurists, 70 AD wasn't THE event. There is a future, universal judgment spoken of in Isaiah 24 and elsewhere which will include the entire earth.

Where partial preterists and futurists primarily differ is 1) the amount of Scripture passages which is regarded as past or future, and 2) the emphasis of the material. The Scripture passages in question are the olivet discourse (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) and the book of Revelation. There are clear parallels between the olivet discourse and Revelation. In the olivet discourse it is very difficult to distinguish where Jesus is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD or the future end-times.

Partial preterists see most (but certainly not all) as referring to past events, and they emphasize 70 AD as fulfillment. Futurists see most of the material (but certainly not all) as referring to future events, and they emphasize these relate to the 2nd coming.


Lamorak Des Galis

Thanks ive been tring to get the answer to this question for some time now. so is there a precise dividing line between the two were one could say with certainty where they stand.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Thanks ive been tring to get the answer to this question for some time now. so is there a precise dividing line between the two were one could say with certainty where they stand.

Yes, the dividing line shows up clearly in the interpretation of Revelation. Dispensational futurists see Revelation 4-22:5 exclusively as chronologically successive events which occur around the 2nd Coming of Christ. Other futurists like Mounce see Revelation 4-8:1 as applying to history leading up to the 2nd Coming, while 8:2-22:5 are events just prior to the 2nd Coming.

Partial preterists see most of Revelation as having already been fulfilled in past events. Partial preterists are divided into two general groups. The first group holds Revelation is mainly a judgment on Jerusalem or apostate Israel. They identify Jerusalem with "Babylon the Great" - and hold that judgment came to apostate Israel in 70 AD. Many Theonomist postmils like Gentry take this view.They of necessity hold that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD.

The second group of partial preterists holds that Revelation is mainly a judgment on the Roman empire. They identify Rome with "Babylon the Great" and believe the judgment was fulfilled up through the 5th century AD.

Lamorak Des Galis

 

[inhisdebt]

Yes, the dividing line shows up clearly in the interpretation of Revelation. Dispensational futurists see Revelation 4-22:5 exclusively as chronologically successive events which occur around the 2nd Coming of Christ. Other futurists like Mounce see Revelation 4-8:1 as applying to history leading up to the 2nd Coming, while 8:2-22:5 are events just prior to the 2nd Coming.

Partial preterists see most of Revelation as having already been fulfilled in past events. Partial preterists are divided into two general groups. The first group holds Revelation is mainly a judgment on Jerusalem or apostate Israel. They identify Jerusalem with "Babylon the Great" - and hold that judgment came to apostate Israel in 70 AD. Many Theonomist postmils like Gentry take this view.They of necessity hold that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD.

The second group of partial preterists holds that Revelation is mainly a judgment on the Roman empire. They identify Rome with "Babylon the Great" and believe the judgment was fulfilled up through the 5th century AD.

Lamorak Des Galis

Thanks a lot you have been very helpful!!!

 

[march56]

Virtually all Christians today would not argue that First Coming prophecy was fulfilled throughout the period leading up to and including the Cross. Take Daniel's 69 weeks for an example of part of that period. Then, throughout most of the Christian era Christians had every reason to, and indeed did, believe that Second Coming prophecy would be fulfilled throughout the Christian era.

But later in the Christian era, and particularly in the 20th century, eschatology broke down into two camps. Partial preterists that believe that the prophesied events leading up to the day of Jesus return had virtually all been fulfilled by 70 AD (with full preterists believing that the Second Coming was as well), and the futurist camp that believes that virtually all of the events prophesied to occur prior to the day Jesus returns, are to take place during some brief (7 years or less) period yet in our future.

These two views of eschatology are divided by a gulf of over 1900 years. It would follow then that each of these camps must necessarily view the other camp as being 100% wrong in regard to their eschatology up to the day of Jesus' return.

Which camp, then, should we suppose, is 100% wrong in regard to their eschatology?

Anyone curious about a view that proffers a linear historic version can try here:
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/index.shtml
Perhaps posters can add links to other linear historic views to this thread for exploration. Let's try to limit the links to view's that demonstrate God's love, rather than to clutter the thread with skinhead and other attack type sites.

What is the point of this?
-M.C.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anyone curious about a view that proffers a linear historic version can try here:
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/index.shtml
Perhaps posters can add links to other linear historic views to this thread for exploration. Let's try to limit the links to view's that demonstrate God's love, rather than to clutter the thread with skinhead and other attack type sites.

Surely you JEST!!!

Recent Events in the Holy Land fulfill Bible prophecy.

It can now be shown conclusively that Daniel, a prophet in the Hebrew Scriptures, prophesied the coming of Islam 1200 years before Muhammad was born.

Try this one for a more Biblical and Scriptural view.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev1.htm

The mark of the beast. Armageddon. The Four Horsemen. The false prophet. Babylon the great. Falling stars, stinging locusts, and giant hailstones. The seven last plagues. The bottomless pit. The lake of fire. These images of terror and catastrophe from the book of Revelation have greatly influenced the thinking of millions of Christians through the ages. Even the secular press uses images such as "Armageddon" and "four horsemen of the Apocalypse" to describe calamities in our world. Despite 1900 years of fascination with the book of Revelation, John’s letter to the seven Churches of Asia continues to be misunderstood. And badly misinterpreted!

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

Capitals used for emphasis only.

Jesus, did not know or tell the Disciples, the year, month, day or Hour of ‘the great and terrible Day of the Lord.’
Where is the biblical evidence for Him doing so.
The preterist view, in this case is based on one event, yes ONE.
Jerusalem, being surrounded by a Roman army.
Yet there is no evidence at all, of the other promised signs and wonders and wonderful promises of the resurrection, of salvation from the mortal to the immortal occurring and no sign of the wedding supper in Rev 19, and what of the return of God’s people, to fight the Armageddon battle?
DEATH where is thy sting and as for the grave, where is your victory?
I don’t see the grave or death swallowed up!
If these other events are not there then the 70AD idea falls apart.
How on Earth, did preterists get to such a state.
The answer is called the ‘proof text study method.’
Using the concordance with the word (Sabbath) we can get a fairly good idea about that day.
However use the word (vengeance) in a cross-referencing system and try bringing them together and this same method just doesn’t work in the same way.
Unless we read, leading and following verses in careful detail and find out the application of that word within the Bible’s intent, we could be in real trouble.
How many here love the Lord?
I would say very many indeed! Amen to that.
So I must ask, are the wicked in no fear, because vengeance has been fulfilled in 70AD and are we wasting our time entreating our Lord, for His mercy because the resurrection of life has supposedly occurred in 70AD?

If all this happened in 70AD, then dear Brothers and Sisters, we are IN REAL TROUBLE because we would be the ones left behind!
But the question is how long are the ‘remnant’ doomed left behind? Well Daniel is told by Gabriel the length of time and it is really short plus he actually tells us about the length of time of the desolation and what time it will occur and his clear statements are not in harmony with 70AD.

Goodnews quote.
“Granted, knowing Daniel might be helpful, but it is not necessary to understand the time span of all the events Jesus stated would precede his coming (Luke 21:20-28).”

It was Jesus, that said read Daniel, right in the eschatological events spoken of in Matt 24: 15.
Daniel, is a great source of information that is vital in understanding the second advent and where it is scheduled to occur, It is the angel Gabriel through Daniel that proves preterists 70AD idea totally incorrect.
In Daniel, 7: 4 – 7. four notable beasts rise up, however after the 4th beast is killed at trump seven when Jesus, returns, to Earth, with the Saints Rev 19: 9 – 21 the three notable powers, ie the lion, bear, and leopard, are left behind for a season and time before they face the sword at the Armageddon battle.
Dan 7: 11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12AS CONCERNING THE REST OF THE BEASTS, they had their dominion taken away: yet THEIR LIVES WERE PROLONGED for a season and time.

These last earthly beast powers are not the Roman empire they are three notable powers which are around today if we look they can be identified.
They are around when God sets up His Kingdom.
I really do have a problem even considering 70AD!
The lion with eagles wings is lion GB eagle USA. Bear Russia, check it out.

Same story in Revelation.
Rev 19: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, AND A KINGDOM, THAT ALL PEOLPE, NATIONS, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an EVERLASTING dominion, which shall not pass away, and his KINGDOM that which shall not be destroyed.

The promised blessing.
Daniel 12: 12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Rev 19: 9. And he saith unto me, Write, BLESSED are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And THE ARMIES which were IN HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and WRATH of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I SAW THE BEAST, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH, and THEIR ARMIES, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The above last verse speaks of world armies not just one army of Rome.

Rev 19: 20. And the BEAST WAS TAKEN, and with him the FALSE PROPHET that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
The prominent nation the remnant LION, BEAR, LEOPARD, nations are put to the sword.
Rev 19: 21. And the REMNANT were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

That is the real story a true and startlingly different story from that of any preterist Yes I did rush through it but it would be far too long if I did this in too much minute detail and I have only barely touched on Daniel.

By the imposed restricted time spans placed on the very few events thus far explained, by me they clearly tell me that 70AD is not in the script!

You see, in Daniel 7: 11,12. In verse 13 Jesus, is brought before the Ancient of Days where He is given His dominion, and glory, and a KINGDOM, that ALL PEOPLE, NATIONS, and languages, should serve him: in verse 14.
That is just one or two reasons why Jesus, refers to the abomination of desolation in Daniel, in Matt 24: 15. and because there is a time limit set for ‘the time period of the vision concerning the place of the daily and the transgression of desolation, of it to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot. One question is asked. How long?
In Daniel 8: 13, 14. A time limiting span is placed on the vision of just 2300 ereb boqer which is 6 and a bit years THEN it will be CLEANSED.
There is a time limit of 2300 ereb boqer which means ‘evening and morning’ and if you really want to see how long that time span is, then go to Gen 1: 5, 8. using ereb/1242/boqer/6153.
The Aramaic language in which Daniel, was written will not allow the 2300 to be changed into years.
6 and a bit years is it.

Now, there is a message in this about the TIME of all this and it is set by the angel Gabriel. He sets the chezev/visions ‘at the time of the end.’ Which effectively deals the death blow to 70AD!
After Daniel, was told about the abomination of desolation and how it would be for only 6 and a bit years, the angel drops the bomb shell.

Dan 8:15, And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had SEEN THE VISION, and sought for the MEANING, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to UNDERSTAND THE VISION.

17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall BE THE VISION.
So out with the old 70AD and in with the original “the time of the end.”

Within the 6 and a bit years span, we have the second half of it next.
Daniel 7: 25 “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and THEY SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND UNTIL A TIME AND TIMES AND DIVIDING OF TIME.”

3 ½ years is all the beast has in Rev 13: 4. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM to continue FORTY TWO MONTHS.
26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall BE GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE SAINTS of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. 28.Hitherto is THE END OF THE MATTER.

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

Note that it is the Gentiles, that trample on the city for those same 42 months in Rev 11: 2. until their time is fulfilled/finished.
This is another disagreement I have that I wish to deal with.
Matt 10: 23. Speaks of the ministry of the Disciples, not starting until after the day of Pentecost.
However Goodnews, disagrees and that is fare enough.
Goodnews Quote “Read it carefully, I suggest you might want to read it from several different translations.”
“Jesus promised to visit his disciples "before" they FINISHED going over the cities of Jerusalem, "not" before they started their work, big difference.” Unquote.

So how do I make a convincing argument?
K.J.V. & N.K.J.V. Matt 10: 23. “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, YE SHALL… NOT …..HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL, TILL THE SON OF MAN COME.”
I am going to use the interpretation that favours Goodnews, to be fair to her.

N.L.B. “When you are persecuted in one town, flee to the next. I assure you that I, the Son of Man, will RETURN BEFORE YOU HAVE REACHED ALL THE TOWNS of Israel. The I.L.T, & N,I,V, Bibles also say much the same as the above verse. So now we have to prove that the following verse has NOTHING to do with ‘the day of the Lord’ or ‘VENGEANCE’ and that the words ‘before you have reached all the cities’ is correctly used in the ILT & NIV.
K. J. V. & N. K. J. V.
Please bear with me on this.
Matt 10: 23. When you are persecuted in one town, flee to the next. I assure you that I, the Son of Man, will return BEFORE YOU HAVE REACHED all the towns of Israel.

Now lets see which interpretation is correct and in harmony with the Lord’s instructions to the Disciples.
I will use the NLB, which tends to side with Goodnews’ view as I said, just to be absolutely impartial, however Goodnews’ preferred translation is in conflict with itself.
We now have to see what the Disciples, were actually doing and whether they have gone out to other CITIES or are still in or close to Jerusalem to prove my point that the Lord said that He would return before they leave Jerusalem. “YE SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL, TILL THE SON OF MAN COME.”

One verse sticks out as plain as day, in the NLB Acts 1: in verse 4, Where Jesus, said, “DO NOT LEAVE JERUSALEM,” so why is there a discrepancy with the Goodnews, preferred slant on it within say the NLB, when it says. “ I, the Son of Man, will RETURN BEFORE YOU HAVE REACHED ALL THE TOWNS of Israel.”
This is the Bible’s intent as follows.
Acts 1: 4. In one of these meetings as he was eating a meal with them, he told them, “DO NOT LEAVE JERUSALEM until the Father sends you what he promised. Remember, I HAVE TOLD YOU ABOUT THIS BEFORE.
So, it would seem the KJV of ‘YE SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL, TILL THE SON OF MAN COME.”
Is in absolute harmony with what Jesus, stated in Acts 1: 4, Not only at that time but ‘earlier times.’

I rest my case on that matter.

Another contention.
I also claim that Matt 10:23. is fulfilled in John 16: 16. 20: 18 – 31. Luke 24: 39.
Also in the following verse, which refutes the claim that, Matt 10: 23. somehow has something to do with the day of the Lord or ‘Vengeance.’
Acts 1: 1. Dear Theophilus:
In my first book I told you about EVERYTHING Jesus began to do and teach
2. UNTIL the day HE ASCENDED TO HEAVEN after giving his chosen apostles further instructions from the Holy Spirit.
3 During the FORTY DAYS AFTER his crucifixion, he appeared to the apostles FROM TIME TO TIME and proved to them in many ways that he was actually alive. On these occasions he TALKED to them ABOUT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Acts 1: 4. In one of these meetings as he was eating a meal with them, he told them, “DO NOT LEAVE JERUSALEM until the Father sends you what he promised. Remember, I HAVE TOLD YOU ABOUT THIS BEFORE.
So we are given proof as to what Jesus, said to the Disciples, that is why they did not go out until Jesus had returned which is accord with the KJV & NKJV which Goodnews does not agree with because it doers not suit the preterist tradition.

Acts 1: 5. John baptized with water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
The Ascension of Jesus
Acts 1: 6. When the apostles were with Jesus, they kept asking him, “Lord, are you going to FREE ISRAEL NOW and restore our kingdom?”

Acts 1: 7 “THE FATHER SETS THOSE DATES,” he replied, “and THEY ARE NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW.
Jesus, as I said, did NOT tell the Disciples, the year, month, or day of ‘the terrible day of the Lord Acts 1: 7!

Acts 1: 8. But when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, you will receive power and will tell people about me EVERYWHERE—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ENDS OF THE EARTH.”

Acts 1: 9. It was NOT LONG AFTER he said this that he was TAKEN UP into the sky while they were watching, and he disappeared into a cloud.
10 As they were straining their eyes to see him, two white-robed men suddenly stood there among them.
11 They said, “Men of Galilee, why are you standing here staring at the sky?
Jesus has been taken away from you into heaven. And SOMEDAY, just as you saw him go, HE WILL RETURN!”
Let’s go back for a moment to the words spoken by Jesus, in John 16: 16. “In just a little while I will be gone, and you won’t see me anymore. Then, just a little while after that, you will see me again.” are obviously applicable not only to Acts 1: but also to John 16: 16. Also Luke 24: 29 – 44.
The Resurrection brings John 16: 16 to light.
John 20: 1. EARLY SUNDAY MORNING, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and found that the stone had been rolled away from the entrance.
2. She ran and found Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved. She said, “They have taken the Lord’s body out of the tomb, and I don’t know where they have put him!”
3. Peter and the other disciple ran to the tomb to see. 4 The other disciple outran Peter and got there first. 5 He stooped and looked in and saw the linen cloth lying there, but he didn’t go in. 6 Then Simon Peter arrived and went inside. He also noticed the linen wrappings lying there,
7. While the cloth that had covered Jesus’ head was folded up and lying to the side.
8. Then the other disciple also went in, and he saw and believed—9 for until then they hadn’t realized that the Scriptures said he would rise from the dead. 10 Then they went home.
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
11 Mary was standing outside the tomb crying, and as she wept, she stooped and looked in. 12 She saw two white-robed angels sitting at the head and foot of the place where the body of Jesus had been lying. 13 “Why are you crying?” the angels asked her.
“Because they have taken away my Lord,” she replied, “and I don’t know where they have put him.”
14 She glanced over her shoulder and saw someone standing behind her. It was Jesus, but she didn’t recognize him.
15. “Why are you crying?” Jesus asked her. “Who are you looking for?”
She thought he was the gardener. “Sir,” she said, “if you have taken him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will go and get him.”
16 “Mary!” Jesus said.
She turned toward him and exclaimed, “Teacher!”
17 “DON’T CLING TO ME,” Jesus said, “for I HAVENT YET ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them that I AMD ASCENDING to my Father and your Father, my God and your God.”
18 Mary Magdalene found the disciples and told them, “I have seen the Lord!” Then she gave them his message.
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
19 That evening, on the first day of the week, the disciples were meeting behind locked doors because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them! “Peace be with you,” he said.
20. As he spoke, he held out his hands for them to see, and he showed them his side. They were filled with joy when they saw their Lord!
21. He spoke to them again and said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 THEN HE BREATHED ON THEM and said to them “RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.
23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven.”

Goodnews Quote. “Jesus promised to visit his disciples "before" they FINISHED going over the cities of Jerusalem, "not" before they started their work, big difference.”

I disagree with you dear Sister Goodnews.
PC

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I SAW THE BEAST, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH/LAND, and THEIR ARMIES, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The above last verse speaks of world armies not just one army of Rome.

So who are these that are left to bury "THEM" in Ezekiel 39:12??

How can Israel and ALL the people be burying if they are all "dead"

Who were the princes, kings and Judges of Israel at the time? I have plenty of OT verses to put up on who "they" are if you want me to.

Matt 23:31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of gehenna? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes:

Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying them, that they may Cleanse the Land. 13 Yea, ALL the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown in the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord Jehovah.

(NKJV) Ezekiel 7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon YOU, And I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations.