preterism

[pentecostal girl]

There's no "if" about it. The "Left Behind" series teached that people will be given a second chance.... and that's not biblical. The "Left Behind" series is bad theology, and it just a story. The author never states that the theology presented in the books is biblically and doctrinally pure.

No they don't, I've never read one that implied that. Hope God keeps blessing over and over again

 

[Toms777]

And you’ve been given it. You are still in the mode of believing a body count is what constitues a Tribulation, it doesn’t. A tribulation is a time of trouble

You clearly have not been reading what I have said. I will simply have to assume that there is no evidence that would justify this being the worst tribulation in history (before or after the event).

You have also ignored this as well. Note Matthew says that “…will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” JustMe did aptly point out to you the great Flood. BUT, Christ said that even THAT wasn’t going to compare and only 8 people survived!!! Therefore, by your “logic” only 7 people will be able to pass through the Tribulation. Care to respond?

I ignored nothing. It is you who keeps going after the body count. I asked what criteria you would give that would provide a measured evidence for historical fulfilled to compare this to other holocausts and so far I have heard nothing.

Second, it does say that the days were shortened otherwise no flesh would be saved. So you have further put 70 AD in question.

+++2) Historical evidence that Jesus Christ returned to earth in 70AD.

Nothing given so far.+++

Hmmm, is the Temple still standing? I didn’t think so. Also, if you wanting historical writings on just how troublesome that time was, go read Jospheus.

I Read Josephus from end to end. The Bible does not say that temple is the sign of Jesus return. (Do you read anything that I write?). Scripture says that every eye will see him when he returns.

Still waiting for evidence of the historical return of Jesus.

Sorry, but quote the entire passage, partial quotes are what athiests and cultists do. Here’s ALL of verse 6

I have had to provide the context for numerous verses during this very same discussion. Watch those fingers, they point both ways! Now deal with the issue!

I ignored some of your comments because it was the same old, same old. Please give me some solid evidence, not the arguments that it is just all symbolic or invisible. The JWs and other tell us that Jesus return was invisible, but scripture says that every eye will see when he returns. The Bible says that he will return as he went up – clearly visible.


Acts 1:10-11
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
NKJV

 

[Justme]

Hi Tom,

I see the problem, if you are not able to consider the spiritual, eternal, heavenly existance and the things that will occur in that realm. You have locked out any possibility of understanding how the parousia was in the first century. I find that strange because to feel confident about the credibility of my interpretation I had to understand others, such as futurism.

So there is another way to do this. You lay out the scripture that says Jesus' parousia and the great tribulation, that talked about in the Olivet Discourse, is still future. Not any denominations interpretation of scripture, but actual biblical verses.

In answer to your 'every eye will see Him " verse...I'll see your verse and raise you a "nobody ever talks about it " verse. How do you want to fit that in?

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

How can that possibly be...every eye will see Jesus, yet you are not to believe anyone who ever says that? cuz they're dead when they see Christ and dead folk don't talk.

If you want to see this in Jesus' own words it is once again right there in the Olivet Discourse. Go thru and read the conversation paying attention to who the 'you' is. The 'you' is actually the deciples, but go ahead and include the symbolic 'you' which is the people of the church you go to and some faithful others. Pay attention to the 'you.' Then pay close attention to who actually sees Jesus coming on the clouds' IT IS THEY. Let's hear your commentary on that one?

One comment on your end after the rumors of war thing.

Actually the end is coming when this biggee happens...
7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Wow, nation against nation, how could that be in little old Jerusalem? Actually that is the only example that can fulfill it because:

Acts 2
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

Every nation of Jews under Heaven were there............

So anyway point out your first scripture that tells you the great tribulation and the parousia are still future. Let's hear your story.

Justme

 

[Toms777]

Hi Tom,

I see the problem, if you are not able to consider the spiritual, eternal, heavenly existance and the things that will occur in that realm. You have locked out any possibility of understanding how the parousia was in the first century. I find that strange because to feel confident about the credibility of my interpretation I had to understand others, such as futurism.

The problem is that the Bible is very clear and I believe the Bible, not any personal interpretation.

In answer to your 'every eye will see Him " verse...I'll see your verse and raise you a "nobody ever talks about it " verse. How do you want to fit that in?

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

How can that possibly be...every eye will see Jesus, yet you are not to believe anyone who ever says that? cuz they're dead when they see Christ and dead folk don't talk.

Let’s look at it in context:

Matt 24:4-6
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
NKJV

Note that the “end is not yet”. Thus this would say that those who in the 1st century said here is the Christ, there is the Christ were deceived, because as Jesus says, that is not the end!

 

[Der Alte]

Hi Tom,

I see the problem, if you are not able to consider the spiritual, eternal, heavenly existance and the things that will occur in that realm. You have locked out any possibility of understanding how the parousia was in the first century. I find that strange because to feel confident about the credibility of my interpretation I had to understand others, such as futurism.

So there is another way to do this. You lay out the scripture that says Jesus' parousia and the great tribulation, that talked about in the Olivet Discourse, is still future. Not any denominations interpretation of scripture, but actual biblical verses.

In answer to your 'every eye will see Him " verse...I'll see your verse and raise you a "nobody ever talks about it " verse. How do you want to fit that in?

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

How can that possibly be...every eye will see Jesus, yet you are not to believe anyone who ever says that? cuz they're dead when they see Christ and dead folk don't talk.

This is about the worst case of blatant scripture twisting I have seen in a a while. Some people don't have a clue what "context" means. As this discourse continues from verse 23, which supposedly proves nobody talks about the second coming, there are two clear references to it being visible, verses 27 and 30. Well deary, deary me whatever can verse 23 possibly mean, if it doesn't mean "nobody ever talks about it?"

This interpretation, "nobody ever talks about it, is nonsense on its face. Jesus said, "false Christs and false prophets will appear" and that is the reason that the faithful should not believe it, when false teachers claim that Jesus has returned and He is in a secret place in the desert or the inner rooms. Because His coming will NOT be secret, hidden, spiritual, or symbolic but visible like the lightning from east to west. "All the nations of the earth, [Not of heaven!], will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky[Not the clouds of heaven!], with power and great glory."

Mat 24:23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
Mat 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.
Mat 24:25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Mat 24:26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[3]
Mat 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

 

[Suede]

Die Alter,



Allow me to step in between you and JustMe in regards to Matthew 24. Let’s go step by step, slowly and surely as we go.



+++This is about the worst case of blatant scripture twisting I have seen in a a while. Some people don't have a clue what "context" means. As this discourse continues from verse 23, which supposedly proves nobody talks about the second coming, there are two clear references to it being visible, verses 27 and 30. Well deary, deary me whatever can verse 23 possibly mean, if it doesn't mean "nobody ever talks about it?"+++



Speaking of Context, let’s take audience relevance in verse 23. Here’s the verse,



Mat 24:23 “At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.”



The audience here, the “you”, is the first century Disciples. Christ is telling them that THEY might encounter people claiming to be the Christ, or pointing out here and there where Christ is. So context wise, this stays within the 1st Century. More on that in a bit. You actually wrote something similar to that,

+++Jesus said, "false Christs and false prophets will appear" and that is the reason that the faithful should not believe it, when false teachers claim that Jesus has returned and He is in a secret place in the desert or the inner rooms.+++

That’s correct, but we must ask, who was Jesus talking to?? He was talking to the 1st Century disciples.



+++Because His coming will NOT be secret, hidden, spiritual, or symbolic but visible like the lightning from east to west. "All the nations of the earth, [Not of heaven!], will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky[Not the clouds of heaven!], with power and great glory."+++



We must be careful not to solidify thoughts based on a few verses. Particularly ones found in a Gospel, that probably has a parallel to it in one of the other 3 Gospels. So the Son of Man will come, and as Christians we understand he was coming with his Kingdom. Here’s a few verses that show the nearness of it,



“The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

"The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)



Ok, two things. We need to know what exactly “at hand” means as far as time is concerned. And two, what exactly are the properties of the Kingdom of Heaven?

"There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matt. 16:28



And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power." Mark 9:1



"But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9:27



Ok, “at hand” means that some of the people in the 1st century will not be dead by the time the Lord returns. Here’s one more to hammer that point home,



"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." Matt. 10:23



Ok, now what about the nature of the kingdom? We are fortunate that a Pharisee asked about the nature of the Kingdom, and we are fortunate that Jesus answered him.



20 “Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, `Look, here it is!' or, `There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is within you."



This removes physically seeing Christ and his Kingdom. Also note this too, your body is the Temple of God right? Christ dwells in you correct? How can you see this? And if he hasn’t come back already, how can he dwell in you? Something to think about.



Let’s get back to Matthew 24 though shall we? I did notice that you listed all the way up to verse 30 and closed with that. Jesus kept going though and he told the 1st century disciples when all this was going to take place.



"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)



There is our time frame once again. Within 40 years, ALL those things were going to happen. This harmonizes with all other time indicators in the Bible, a few I’ve given above. It’s important that we understand WHEN these things were going to happen, not so much HOW. For if the Lord said they were going to happen, you can bet they were going to happen! So let’s find out when they were going to happen and put forth faith that they did happen lest we doubt our Lord. We mustn’t put the cart in front of the donkey.
We must bear in mind that though the Bible was very much written FOR us, it was not written TO us. The NT was written TO the people of the 1st Century, they are the audience, things are relevent to them, not to us. Like, what if you found an old letter from your grandfather to your grandmother. Will it be relevant to you? Perhaps you can find some things in there that might still pertain to you. But, don't you think those would pertain to your grandmother as well? Of course! Why, because it was written TO her. If your grandfather was seperated from your grandmother and wrote to her "I will be coming to your shortly", would he have meant he would be coming to her in YOUR lifetime? No, of course not! Same thing with the NT. (which by the way the bulk of the New Testament IS in fact letters.) It is SO important that we understand that the letters and gospels that make up the New Testament were written TO the people of the 1st century and made sense to them! If Jesus while in the flesh told his 1st century disciples that he would be coming back soon, or that THEY would be alive when he returned, we must put ourselves in their shoes and understand it as they would have understood it. THAT is understanding context. Take care,
SUEDE

 

[Suede]

To All Futurists



Is there any among you that can Biblically answer these verses and stay within the eschatology of Futurism?



"Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)



"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)



"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)



"There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matt. 16:28



"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)



"From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)



“These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)



“If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)



” Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)



“It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)



“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John” (Rev 1:1)

“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)


SUEDE

 

[Toms777]

And again, there is evidence. The Temple and Josepheus are two. But, ok, let’s apply your “logic” to other things in the Bible shall we? The Flood, I MUST see Noah’s ark. Moses and the 10 Commandments. Sorry, I won’t believe them til I see em. David and Golaith, sorry you’ll have to roll his big bones in here. Solomon’s Temple. Nay, that and his mines couldn’t have existed, but if you believe em prove it to me. You see? I will tell you this, I’m a history major and I understand the difficulty of empirical evidence, you do not. Besides, what is more important, what you can see or what the Bible says? I highly question your opinion of the Bible. You still can’t counter ANY of the time indicators, so your point is ultimately moot.

Clearly you have not been reading:
-Temple: It was shown NOT to be a sign. Jesus said that those who looked for him at that time were deceived.
- Josephus: You have shown nothing from Josephu – you mentioned it in passing.
- Flood: That confirmed what I said that 70Ad did not qualify
- Moses: How does he fit in??? let’s get real!

If you understand the need for evidence, then stop using ad hominems and show the evidence!

I have not responded to some of your comment because they fell into ad hominems or repetitive comments which have been previously addressed.

Secondly, Jehovah’s Witnesses are still looking for his return. Hmmm, now between you and I, who does this describe? You. Seems like you and ol’ JW have quite a bit to talk about. If I squint my eyes, I can barely tell you two apart.

Actually, the JWs are closer to your camp – they say that Jesus already returned, only they say 1914 instead of 70AD, but since neither groups can provide proof, both claim that he came invisibly, and indeed the arguments and claims as to why they can say that he came are virtually identical to yours in many respects.

Perhaps you should coopl your comments trying to denigarte what others know or don't know.

+++The Bible says that he will return as he went up – clearly visible.

Acts 1:10-11
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."+++

First things first. Let’s read the entire passage. Again, pulling things out of context is the folly of many. Here’s the whole context, verse nine,

“9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.”

Ok, so how did he actually go? Behind a cloud, OUT of their sight. Now, how can we match this up with other Bible verses? You must remember, the disciples being Jewish and knowing the OT, would have known exactly what the angel was telling them, and it isn’t the expectation of a physical descent. You have to match up Bibles verses with other Bible verses to prevent false doctrine. If you believe that the Son of Man will be physically seen, then you must prove it using both the OT and the NT to have any sort of a case. If you cannot do this, then you have a false theology on your hands. Let’s have a look at the Coming of the Christ.

He went out of sight when he went up to the cloud. Clouds are up above the earth. Prior to that he was visible. How do we know? We have a second prophetic statement:

Rev 1:6-8
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
NKJV

Note the clouds. He is coming with the clouds and every eye will see him. Thus he will return as he left. With the clouds and then every eye will see him. How many eyes saw him in 70AD? I thought you said that it was invisible.

"From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

I am sorry, but what version were you using? Mine did not say Caiaphas.

Matt 26:64
64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
NKJV

You did not add an interpretation to the verse did you?

Matthew 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

I suggest you study the OT more. Coming on clouds signifies judgment; it’s yet another idiom that the Israelites employed. We today might say, ‘Bill bought the farm’ meaning Bill had died. But 2,000 years from now people may believe Bill actually bought an actual farm. Those people would be wrong.

Really? Judgement? Let’s have a look at some references:

Deut 33:26 "There is no one like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to help you, And in His excellency on the clouds. NKJV

Ps 57:10 For Your mercy reaches unto the heavens, And Your truth unto the clouds. NKJV

Ps 68:34 Ascribe strength to God; His excellence is over Israel, And His strength is in the clouds. NKJV

Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed. NKJV

None of these, and there are many many more, even suggest judgment.

Yes, my friend, I read and study the OT plenty.

Now, how about you showing the fruit of teh spirit a bit more and stop the personal comments and attacks?

 

[Toms777]

Is there any among you that can Biblically answer these verses and stay within the eschatology of Futurism?

I did one better. I answer all your comments in previous messages and stayed within the eschatology of the Bible!

 

[Der Alte]

Die Alter,

Allow me to step in between you and JustMe in regards to Matthew 24. Let’s go step by step, slowly and surely as we go.

Who is "Die Alter?" If you are addressing me the name is "Der Alter," that means "The Elder," in German and Yiddish. The definite article "Die" in those languages is feminine.

And I do so love it when someone with a little knowledge presumes to talk down to me. "lowly and surely," indeed, as you post and repost the same old arguments that other misguided Preterists have posted over and over again right here in this forum.

Speaking of Context, let’s take audience relevance in verse 23. Here’s the verse,

Maybe you are going a bit too fast here, that you ignored the context of my response. I was addressing a particular statement by another poster, who claimed that nobody talked about the second coming, because it was invisible.

Mat 24:23 * * * The audience here, the “you”, is the first century Disciples. Christ is telling them that THEY might encounter people claiming to be the Christ, or pointing out here and there where Christ is. So context wise, this stays within the 1st Century. More on that in a bit. You actually wrote something similar to that, * * *

That’s correct, but we must ask, who was Jesus talking to?? He was talking to the 1st Century disciples.[/font]

Because His coming will NOT be secret, hidden, spiritual, or symbolic but visible like the lightning from east to west. "All the nations of the earth, [Not of heaven!], will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky[Not the clouds of heaven!], with power and great glory."

If the disciples and other first century people were the "you" Jesus was addressing, who is the "they"?

We must be careful not to solidify thoughts based on a few verses. Particularly ones found in a Gospel, that probably has a parallel to it in one of the other 3 Gospels. So the Son of Man will come, and as Christians we understand he was coming with his Kingdom. Here’s a few verses that show the nearness of it,

“The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

"The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

Ok, two things. We need to know what exactly “at hand” means as far as time is concerned. And two, what exactly are the properties of the Kingdom of Heaven?

Interesting but irrelevant to the point I was addressing.

"There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matt. 16:28
Mark 9:1 * * *
Luke 9:27 * * *

Ok, “at hand” means that some of the people in the 1st century will not be dead by the time the Lord returns. Here’s one more to hammer that point home,

Does this refer to the Parousia, the second coming? Or could it refer to the resurrection and ascent, when men saw God overcome death and the grave?

"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." Matt. 10:23

And you presume to lecture about the context of passages? The disciples were told NOT to go among the gentiles or cities of the Samaritans. They did in fact go to Samaria and gentile cities. They were with Jesus when He had the conversation at the well and they went into the city, in Samaria. And in Acts are several references for the disciples going into Samaria and among gentiles. For example Act 8:14. Please explain this discrepancy. And you might want to think about how the gospel was taken to every nation, every tongue, before the end came if it was not taken to the Samaritans and gentiles?

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Act 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them.

Ok, now what about the nature of the kingdom? We are fortunate that a Pharisee asked about the nature of the Kingdom, and we are fortunate that Jesus answered him.

“Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, `Look, here it is!' or, `There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

This removes physically seeing Christ and his Kingdom. Also note this too, your body is the Temple of God right? Christ dwells in you correct? How can you see this? And if he hasn’t come back already, how can he dwell in you? Something to think about.

Do you have scriptural support that the kingdom of heaven equates to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? This in NO way responds to the verses posted "every eye shall see," etc. This simply ignores the language and introduces a contradiction. Jesus said He would "send" the comforter. How does that fit into your handful of proof texts?

Let’s get back to Matthew 24 though shall we? I did notice that you listed all the way up to verse 30 and closed with that. Jesus kept going though and he told the 1st century disciples when all this was going to take place.

This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

The generation that shall see all those things, previously spoken, "this" generation shall not pass away until. . ." and since no generation has SEEN ALL those things, it hasn't happened yet.

There is our time frame once again. Within 40 years, ALL those things were going to happen. This harmonizes with all other time indicators in the Bible, a few I’ve given above. * * *
For if the Lord said they were going to happen, you can bet they were going to happen! So let’s find out when they were going to happen and put forth faith that they did happen lest we doubt our Lord. We mustn’t put the cart in front of the donkey.

Time indicators as you have copied them from Preterists-R-Us and ignored scriptures which do not support your presuppositions. I have faith in the Lord and do not doubt anything He spoke but you have not proved your assertion.

We must bear in mind that though the Bible was very much written FOR us, it was not written TO us.

This is a nice trite little expression but you have not proved it yet.

The NT was written TO the people of the 1st Century, they are the audience, things are relevent to them, not to us.

Assumption and presumption.

Like, what if you found an old letter from your grandfather to your grandmother. * * * No, of course not! Same thing with the NT. (which by the way the bulk of the New Testament IS in fact letters.) It is SO important that we understand that the letters and gospels that make up the New Testament were written TO the people of the 1st century and made sense to them! If Jesus while in the flesh told his 1st century disciples that he would be coming back soon, or that THEY would be alive when he returned, we must put ourselves in their shoes and understand it as they would have understood it. THAT is understanding context.

That was a touching story about grandpa and grandma, almost brought a tear to my eye. But totally irrelevant to this discussion. Neither of them are eternal. Are there any examples in the N.T. where Jesus speaks, using the second person personal pronoun, you, that means Christians living in this day and time? Ever hear of the transcendant, you?

 

[Phoenix]

Der Alter, are you sure your not Old Shepard in disguise ?

 

[Justme]

Hi Tom,

Let’s look at it in context:

Matt 24:4-6
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
NKJV

Note that the “end is not yet”. Thus this would say that those who in the 1st century said here is the Christ, there is the Christ were deceived, because as Jesus says, that is not the end! Yesterday 03:43 AM

This is this context that I hear so much about. Did you know that is the number one response to christian debate between futurists and others. Hey, that's just one of my personal obsevations....anyway...

You are absolutely right that the end is not after hearing about these wars..who said it was?
The quote I made about not believing this rumor was:
23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
Verse 23 we are up to the time of big trouble, not after they hear a rumor of war...big difference.

The next thing is the Olivet does tell us when the 'end' will come and it is after the gospel has been preached to the world.
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The word world here is oikoumene which can mean the following:
1) the inhabited earth

a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians

b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire

c) the whole inhabited earth, the world

d) the inhabitants of the earth, men

2) the universe, the world

You will note it need not mean the entire planet. I don't know squat about Greek, but Strong does so I asked him.

I think I may have mentioned it before, but Paul made it very clear that the gospel had been preached to ..well:
col 1
23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

The common argument here is that it wasn't preached to the backwood country of some country in South America so it can't be the deal. That is actually denying what Paul said, what the bible says and it is usually followed by ...I GO BY THE WORD OF GOD...tee hee.

So the gospel wasn't preached all over should be no surprise because Jesus Himself said it wasn't going everywhere in the instructions He gave the twelve

Matthew 10
5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel..

Who all did that include, well it don't matter much because on top of that Jesus tells them:

3When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

There is a list of the people Jesus gave these instructions to and it wasn't you and it wasn't me...the list appears at the start of this chapter.

Again I will mention just in passing when the 'end' is according to whoever wrote Hebrews..it is another one of those verses where the only comeback is 'out of contexrt'.

26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

What else should we discuss concerning the end didn't come after the rumor of wars?

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi Der Alter,

Maybe you are going a bit too fast here, that you ignored the context of my response. I was addressing a particular statement by another poster, who claimed that nobody talked about the second coming, because it was invisible.

I'm the other poster like Olive , the other reindeer. I went a bit further than saying nobody spoke of the parousia because it was invisible. I also said nobody talked about seeing Jesus coming on the clouds because when they saw this they were dead and I mentioned that dead people don't report back to earth.

If the disciples and other first century people were the "you" Jesus was addressing, who is the "they"?

I don't know who wrote this sorry, but am I ever glad somebody did.

Who indeed is the 'they' in the Olivet Discourse? It isn't the fourteen long-haired friends of Jesus in the chartuese micro bus because they fled Judea before the great tribulation...they are in the hills, Peala actually, but that's another story. Like it wasn't those pregnant women having trouble getting around in the winter...motor home needed snow treads or whatever and it wasn't those trying to flee on the sabath because a 3/4 mile walk is all that is allowed, because Jesus Himself asked for prayer for them....so who was it that saw Jesus coming on the clouds...could it be the recievers of that terrible wrath that was to come upon:

Matthew 23
36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,...................

Before you jump all over the not quoting all the verses bit, i'll tell you that I think it's best to read it yourself so as to grasp the 'context.'

Justme

 

[Justme]

To the future,

In this thread somewhere is the famous argument that Jesus will return as He left..meaning physically, as opposed to meaning 'on the clouds' or hidden by clouds.

Acts 1:11 is quoted as absolute proof of this. That is followed or used in connection with this:

Luke 24
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

There you go clear as it get's, Jesus return is totally physical...except.

How come Jesus walked thru walls?
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

How come Jesus disappeared at times?

Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

How come God did this?
Acts 10
40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Seems to me there is some confusion as to whether Jesus was spiritual or physical.
The common argument here is that we will be resurrected as Jesus was...thank you very much. Jesus still had His wounds that killed Him when He talked to Thomas and said He wasn't a ghost. Remember that verse that goes with Acts 1:11 to 'prove' a physical return...how do you want it? Do you want to go spiritually or go with the wounds intact of whatever killed you..those who will be beheaded are in really big trouble..
Oh, I know there is a verse that says the old will become new again, but you can't have it both ways.

Justme

 

[Suede]

Der Alter,





+++Who is "Die Alter?" If you are addressing me the name is "Der Alter," that means "The Elder," in German and Yiddish. The definite article "Die" in those languages is feminine.+++



Sorry, I wasn’t looking at your name directly when I typed a response, take no offense as none was meant. I often type my responses off line on a Word document and then paste them to the forum. Again, no offense meant.

+++And I do so love it when someone with a little knowledge presumes to talk down to me. "lowly and surely,"+++



Sorry, so much for common courtesies. I was trying to be polite.



+++indeed, as you post and repost the same old arguments that other misguided Preterists have posted over and over again right here in this forum.+++



If they are the same old arguments, they they should be easy to refute. So far they have not been. Ultimately talk is cheap. I have not seen a single person here address the verses I have posted. Would you care to be the first?



+++Because His coming will NOT be secret, hidden, spiritual, or symbolic but visible like the lightning from east to west. "All the nations of the earth, [Not of heaven!], will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky[Not the clouds of heaven!], with power and great glory."

If the disciples and other first century people were the "you" Jesus was addressing, who is the "they"?+++



The they in this passage are the “not disciples”. I was saying to Tom777, Futurism’s failure is to see the forest. Remember, in Revelation it is clear that even the ones that pierced him would see him. These people are now dead. Also, at Christ’s trial it was stated that THEY, the High Priests and the court, would seem him as well. They too are dead now.



+++Does this (Matthew 16:28) refer to the Parousia, the second coming? Or could it refer to the resurrection and ascent, when men saw God overcome death and the grave?+++



Good question, but the Parousia is the Biblically correct answer here for Matthew 16:28. Note the prior verse, verse 27 “"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.” This removes the idea of the Resurrection as well as the dogmatic teaching of the Transfiguration.



+++Matthew 10:23 "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.”



And you presume to lecture about the context of passages? The disciples were told NOT to go among the gentiles or cities of the Samaritans. They did in fact go to Samaria and gentile cities. They were with Jesus when He had the conversation at the well and they went into the city, in Samaria. And in Acts are several references for the disciples going into Samaria and among gentiles. For example Act 8:14. Please explain this discrepancy.+++

Of course, it’s another example of a Futurist misread. Christ is telling them that they won’t be able to through all the cities of Israel, not that they wouldn’t ever leave or preach outside of it. Look at the verse again “…you will not finish going through the cities of Israel…”They didn’t go through all the cities. Besides, even your interpretation hurts the Futurist view!



+++Do you have scriptural support that the kingdom of heaven equates to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?+++



I don’t see the two as connected, sorry that’s not what I was implying when I meant the Kingdom of God is inside you. I meant more that your body is the Temple of God. The coming of the Holy Spirit was actually a sign that the end was near however.



Acts 2:16,17 “but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: `AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, `THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;



The kingdom of God isn’t one of boundaries like what we understand kingdoms or nations to be. It is composed of all believers, regardless of where they live. The reason is because we are indwelt by God. Some call this filled with the Holy Spirit, or some say they have Jesus in their heart. This is what the kingdom of God is.



+++This in NO way responds to the verses posted "every eye shall see," etc.+++



Every eye shall see him is an idiom, sort of meaning “you will know.”



+++Jesus said He would "send" the comforter. How does that fit into your handful of proof texts?+++



Yes, and he did, at Pentacost in the 1st Century. Peter noted that that event was one of the prophesized signs of the end. A fact too often over looked.

+++The generation that shall see all those things, previously spoken, "this" generation shall not pass away until. . ." and since no generation has SEEN ALL those things, it hasn't happened yet.+++



One generation did see those things, all of them, it was the 1st century generation. That point is painfully clear in scripture. People forget or don’t realize that the 1st century is what it all came down to. That was the prophecy of Daniel, that was the time of the New Covenant. Also, the 1st Century “Jews” were to be responsible for ALL the sins of their forefathers. This is why there was to be a time of trouble that had never been seen before or since. One generation would be responsible, they would be reaping the wrath, they would be the final drop in the cup that filled it to its measure.



+++Time indicators as you have copied them from Preterists-R-Us and ignored scriptures which do not support your presuppositions. I have faith in the Lord and do not doubt anything He spoke but you have not proved your assertion.+++



If you have faith in the Lord and believe him you would be Preteristic in your eschatological views. If you feel I have ignored scriptures, please post them. I however see the Futurists doing the ignoring of black and white scripture, and until those can be answered, I’m not bothered by futurist musing or name calling.



+++ Suede wrote “The Bible was written for us, but not to us.”

This is a nice trite little expression but you have not proved it yet.Assumption and presumption. +++

Surely you jest! You mean to say that the 1st Century Christians did NOT understand the letters and gospels that were written to them? Come on! I’ll list the most blatant and obvious ones to prove my point.



Luke 1:3,4 “…it seemed good also to me to write an oderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.”

Acts 1:1 “In my former book, Theolphilus, I wrote…..”

Romans 1:7 “To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints.”

1 Corinthians 1:2 “To the church of God in Corinth….”

2 Corinthians 1:1 “To the church of God in Corinth…”

Galatians 1:2 “To the Churches in Galatia.”

Ephesians 1:1 “To the saints in Ephesus…”

Philippians 1:1 “To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons.

Colossians 1:2 “To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse.”

1 Thessalonians 1:1 “To the church of the Thessalonians…”

2 Thessalonians 1:1 “To the church of the Thessalonians…”

1 Timothy 1:2 “To Timothy my true son in the faith.”

2 Timothy 1:2 “To Timothy, my dear son.”

Titus 1:4 “To Titus, my true son in our common faith.”

Philemon 1:1,2 “To Philemon our dear friend and fellow work, to Apphia our sister, to Archippus our fellow soldier and to the church that meets in your home.”

James 1:1 “To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations, Greetings.”

2 John 1:1 “To the chosen lady and her children”

3 John 1:1,2 “To my dear friend Gaius, whom I love in the Truth. Dear Friend…”

Revelation 1:4 “To the seven churches in the province of Asia.”



How’s that for trite? How’s that for assuming and presuming? 19 out of 27 that have blatant addresses, all 1st century. It seems that you’ve been doing some assuming on your part.



+++Are there any examples in the N.T. where Jesus speaks, using the second person personal pronoun, you, that means Christians living in this day and time?+++



Sure there’s some generalized statements that we today can understand as spoken to ALL Christians, but one, none are prophetic and two they would have been understood by the relevant audience which is of course the 1st Century Christians. Take this for example,



Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world.”



Does this mean all Christians? Of course, no doubt we are the light of the world and here’s why we know this,



16 "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.”



BUT, this also had relevance to the 1st Century crowd that heard it. Do you understand? This is what I was trying to illustrate with reading one of your Grandfather’s letters to your Grandmother. Yes, you may find things that speak to you, BUT that doesn’t negate the actual audience! What if your Grandfather wrote, “You be good to all people.” That speaks to you, but it also spoke to your grandmother! Plus we must remember, many things such as the Olivet Discourse were spoken in private between Christ and his disciples. It is they that are the you in those passages, not us or any other Christian. When Christ told the high priest at his trial “YOU shall see…” Jesus didn’t mean us, or anyone else but that immediate person or persons. When Jesus tells a mortal person who’s days are numbered that they will see something, Jesus is putting that event within a very real time frame, under 100 years. We MUST acknowledge this. Take care,

SUEDE

 

[Toms777]

The next thing is the Olivet does tell us when the 'end' will come and it is after the gospel has been preached to the world.

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

I did not say anything about the “wars”, but I did point out that is also says that the end has not come when the temple is destroyed.

The word world here is oikoumene which can mean the following:

I also did not raise this as a question either, so you are raising a strawman. I’d rather you deal with the issues that I did raise.

When and if we ever get to discuss this point, we can go over what the world means.

Remember when I said earlier that I wanted to deal with one point at a time to avoid the posts getting too long?

So please look back at my messages and deal with the issues that I raised.

 

[Suede]

Tom777,



I’ll entertain your question one last time, though personally I don’t think it will have much effect. The reason for this is that you already have an “answer” in you head. Your mind is basically made up, so when something counter to this shown, it’s rejeted on the simple criteria that you don’t want to hear it. The temple being knocked down as a sign is a big example. Literally all theologians, whether they are Futurists or Preterists acknowledge that the knocking down of the Temple was invovled with the New Covenant. To say otherwise is to be against the bulk of Christianity. The fact that the disciples would see Jerusalem surrounded by armies and that then the armies would knock over the temple shows how they are connected. You are trying to separate them in vain, despite the fact that Christ ends the entire discussion by saying that ALL those things will happen. Anyways though,



Here’s your original plea,



+++Maybe you'd like to tell us about where each of the prphetic events shown in Matthew 24 and 25 occurred historically+++



The sad fact is, you were shown. Again though, since they were counter to your futurist thinking, you rejected them. Again, ultimately that’s too bad though. What’s really sad to me is that you seem to cast a vote of “no confidence” in the Bible and demand empirical proof like the athiests do. If the Bible says it happened, it happened! As stated earlier, we don’t have Solomon’s Temple, or the Stone Tablets, so you mean to tell me that you don’t believe in those either?



I went ahead and did a bit of leg work though and here’s some of the Heavenly things happened in accordance with Josepheus,



A star resembling a sword over Jerusalem

Halley’s Comet appeared in 66 AD

A bright light shining over the Temple and the Altar

A vision of chariots and soldiers running around among the clouds



There’s heavenly events right there. Plus other historical events that match up with “The End”,



Jerusalem surrounded by an army

The Temple knocked over

A great famine

False Messiahs
All these things witnessed by the Disciples just as they were told that THEY would witness them in a private discourse.


With all these things, PLUS the blatant time indicators in the Bible, how can one say that it did NOT yet happen? Sadly today many Christians are in love with the traditions of men instead of the word of God. Now, you must counter what I have written from a historical point of view. Make your historic claim as to how the events in the Bible do NOT historically match up with the events around 70 AD. I’ll be waiting for your empirically based reply.



SUEDE

 

[Toms777]

Tom777,

The temple being knocked down as a sign is a big example. Literally all theologians, whether they are Futurists or Preterists acknowledge that the knocking down of the Temple was invovled with the New Covenant.

It is a sign but of what. You claim that literally all theologians take it as a sign of the new covenant. What I would agree with is that the knocking down of the temple was a judgment, but you go much farther in saying that it is not a judgment, but the judgement. Something that you have failed to show from scripture. Claiming that all theologians hold to the temple having something to do with the new covenant and then trying to suggest that all theologians agree with your specific interpretation is neither logical nor accurate.

+++Maybe you'd like to tell us about where each of the prphetic events shown in Matthew 24 and 25 occurred historically+++

The sad fact is, you were shown. Again though, since they were counter to your futurist thinking, you rejected them. Again, ultimately that’s too bad though. What’s really sad to me is that you seem to cast a vote of “no confidence” in the Bible and demand empirical proof like the athiests do. If the Bible says it happened, it happened! As stated earlier, we don’t have Solomon’s Temple, or the Stone Tablets, so you mean to tell me that you don’t believe in those either?

Are you saying that you believe that they were also invisible? The point here is that you try to tell us that where evidence does not exist, it was symbolic or invisible.

I went ahead and did a bit of leg work though and here’s some of the Heavenly things happened in accordance with Josepheus,

A star resembling a sword over Jerusalem

Halley’s Comet appeared in 66 AD

A bright light shining over the Temple and the Altar

A vision of chariots and soldiers running around among the clouds

Well, how about the specific references so that we can look at these in context.

Plus other historical events that match up with “The End”,

This is what I have asked for from the start – show me where history records the fulfillment of these prophecies. But don’t keep repeating the same old, same old over and over again.

Jerusalem surrounded by an army

The Temple knocked over

A great famine

False Messiahs

All these things witnessed by the Disciples just as they were told that THEY would witness them in a private discourse.

All this Jesus said would occur but that this was not yet the end. You are changing what he said to say that it is the end. Further, Jesus said that those who claimed that Jesus returned in that timeframe were deceived.

Stop repeating the same old things over and over. Show us something of substance.

 

[Justme]

Hi Tom,

I did not say anything about the “wars”, but I did point out that is also says that the end has not come when the temple is destroyed.

Tom, the stuff I wrote was to DISPROVE what you wrote about the end not being at the time of the destruction.

I also did not raise this as a question either, so you are raising a strawman. I’d rather you deal with the issues that I did raise.

YOU don't have to raise ever point for discussion, I'm in this conversation, too. I brought up biblical verses to backup my conclusion that the 'end' did occur within the same generation as the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. They dispute what you said and you don't deal with that.

Let's simplify this whole thing and let's start at the ground floor and work up.

Mark 13
30I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

If I remember correctly, you interpret this to mean the generation who sees the signs...

Well, I see it as the generation that sees, nation against nation, famines,earthquakes, the gospel being preached, the abomination, the flight out of Judea, the great tribulation and the parousia...in other words I also see it as the generation who sees the signs Jesus lists in the answer He gave on Olive Mountain.

Mark 13
4"Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"

What are the signs that are about to be fulfilled, as told by Jesus Christ?

Justme

 

[Toms777]

Hi Tom,
Tom, the stuff I wrote was to DISPROVE what you wrote about the end not being at the time of the destruction.

YOU don't have to raise ever point for discussion, I'm in this conversation, too. I brought up biblical verses to backup my conclusion that the 'end' did occur within the same generation as the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. They dispute what you said and you don't deal with that.'

I don't see how they refute anything that I have put forward.

Let's simplify this whole thing and let's start at the ground floor and work up.

Mark 13
30I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

If I remember correctly, you interpret this to mean the generation who sees the signs...

You are getting me mixed up with someone else...we have not yet discussed this.

Well, I see it as the generation that sees, nation against nation, famines,earthquakes, the gospel being preached, the abomination, the flight out of Judea, the great tribulation and the parousia...in other words I also see it as the generation who sees the signs Jesus lists in the answer He gave on Olive Mountain.

Mark 13
4"Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"

What are the signs that are about to be fulfilled, as told by Jesus Christ?

That is how I started this, trying to go down the signs one at a time.
So far no one has shown a historical fulfillment of any of the signs given by Jesus for his second coming, but rather have claimed that they were all symbolic or invisible. I would have to sonder why he gave them as signs if we could not see the signs.
[/QUOTE]